Sabal ID needed, S. bermudana ???

[Eric in Orlando]

This Sabal is growing at Nehrling Gardens and we are trying to get a positive ID on it. I think it is Sabal bermudana. It is growing in very dense shrubbery and bamboo and under shade. The trunk is fairly slender in the lower half but much thicker on the upper half. It was hard to get a photo of the entire tree because of the dense foliage

[Kailua_Krish]

From what I know the leaves and the trunk look right. I think the other two features of bermudana are marble sized seeds and inflorescences that are shorter than the leaves. Im working on IDing a Sabal I think is bermudana at USF now and those are the things I have found that people said to look for.

-Krishna

[sonoranfans]

looks like bermudana, inflorescences within the petioles, and that pronounced yellow hastula. Some more experienced than I(Dave, "Tala") say the inflorescences within petioles are only the case for bermudana. My bermudana from AZ was like that and also had those yellow hastula. Fruits should be round, black and 7-10mm.

[Kailua_Krish]

looks like bermudana, inflorescences within the petioles, and that pronounced yellow hastula. Some more experienced than I(Dave, "Tala") say the inflorescences within petioles are only the case for bermudana. My bermudana from AZ was like that and also had those yellow hastula. Fruits should be round, black and 7-10mm.

I have a question about the fruit, I keep hearing on Palmtalk it is supposed to be round but then in Scott Zona's monograph on Sabals this is the description of bermudana's fruit:

Fruit pyriform, black, with a thick pericarp, 12.9-17.9

mm in diameter, 12.3-19.1mm high; seed oblate-concave7, .5-12.5 mm in diameter,

5.1-8.6 mm high, often with a sharp funicular beak

He then later compares with the description of 'blackburniana' and finds that it has round fruits around 22 mm in diameter. He says that the big differentiation between bermudana and blackburniana is that bermudana's fruit is strongly pyriform and slightly smaller. He then further goes on to say that since there is no type specimen preserved that blackburniana is invalid, but that the discription of it does leave questions.

So here is what I'm saying, does this mean that round fruit disqualifies a sabal that has the other "bermudana-ish" traits from being labeled as that?

Sabal is a confusing genus...

-Krishna

Edited February 9, 2011 by krishnaraoji88

[sonoranfans]

looks like bermudana, inflorescences within the petioles, and that pronounced yellow hastula. Some more experienced than I(Dave, "Tala") say the inflorescences within petioles are only the case for bermudana. My bermudana from AZ was like that and also had those yellow hastula. Fruits should be round, black and 7-10mm.

I have a question about the fruit, I keep hearing on Palmtalk it is supposed to be round but then in Scott Zona's monograph on Sabals this is the description of bermudana's fruit:

Fruit pyriform, black, with a thick pericarp, 12.9-17.9

mm in diameter, 12.3-19.1mm high; seed oblate-concave7, .5-12.5 mm in diameter,

5.1-8.6 mm high, often with a sharp funicular beak

He then later compares with the description of 'blackburniana' and finds that it has round fruits around 22 mm in diameter. He says that the big differentiation between bermudana and blackburniana is that bermudana's fruit is strongly pyriform and slightly smaller. He then further goes on to say that since there is no type specimen preserved that blackburniana is invalid, but that the discription of it does leave questions.

So here is what I'm saying, does this mean that round fruit disqualifies a sabal that has the other "bermudana-ish" traits from being labeled as that?

Sabal is a confusing genus...

-Krishna

Blackburniana is not a recognized species according to taxonomists. Some references refer to blackburniana as hispanolan palmetto which is also known as domingensis.

http://www.floridata.com/ref/s/saba_dom.cfm

I had both "blackburniana" and bermudana. The bermudanas fruits are small and round, the hispanolan palmetto is a much bigger palm and has fruits that are more pear shaped and brown at about 15mm to 20mm on my "blackie" sabal. Since mine were grown int he desert, perhaps the fruits were a little smaller. The hispanolan palmetto has massively thick(4") petioles that are 5-6' long with 5'+ fronds as well, bermudanas are more slender with smaller fronds, witha size more like the cabbage palmetto here in florida.

Edited February 9, 2011 by sonoranfans

[Kailua_Krish]

I dont know why Floridata has Blackburniana being equated with domingensis, when Zona clearly states that historically the palm referenced to as blackburniana was more likely of Bermuda. Domingensis is also listed as having pyriform fruits but due to size of the palm itself should be easily distinguishable from bermudana.

By no means am I saying you are wrong, I'm just curious as to why (as far as I know) the most thorough monograph of Sabal has bermudana fruit listed as strongly pyriform and yet from both this post, and older posts, people have been identifying bermudana as having globose fruit.

-Krishna

Edit: Also clearly differentiating blackburniana from domingensis is the fact that domingensis inflorescences extend to the leaf, and sometimes slightly beyond while the description of blackburniana has the inflorescences extending only to the tip of the petiole at farthest.

Edited February 9, 2011 by krishnaraoji88

[sarasota alex]

A confusing genus indeed.

Kew Checklist list S. blackburniana as a synonym to S. palmetto.

What I like about Scott Zona's Monograph - not only is it the most thorough (as you mentioned) monograph of the genus, all collections and observations have been made exclusively in habitat. This is not the case for most other Sabal articles I've seen. Authors study many of the species in botanical gardens adding to the overall confusion. Many botanical gardens, arboretums and private collections have mis-labeled Sabals making studies unreliable.

[sonoranfans]

I dont know why Floridata has Blackburniana being equated with domingensis, when Zona clearly states that historically the palm referenced to as blackburniana was more likely of Bermuda. Domingensis is also listed as having pyriform fruits but due to size of the palm itself should be easily distinguishable from bermudana.

By no means am I saying you are wrong, I'm just curious as to why (as far as I know) the most thorough monograph of Sabal has bermudana fruit listed as strongly pyriform and yet from both this post, and older posts, people have been identifying bermudana as having globose fruit.

-Krishna

Edit: Also clearly differentiating blackburniana from domingensis is the fact that domingensis inflorescences extend to the leaf, and sometimes slightly beyond while the description of blackburniana has the inflorescences extending only to the tip of the petiole at farthest.

I dont know who has correctly described a nonexistent species. It would seem pointless to argue the definition of a nonexistent species. More likely, the term blackburniana is applied to a number of sabal species. As far as sabal bermudana fruit, I only report what I saw in the desert, and my sabal had the characteristic -which some say is definitive for blackburniana- of having the inflorescence within the rachis while the "blackie" had the inflorescences below the rachis.

Edited February 9, 2011 by sonoranfans

[Kailua_Krish]

People said the same thing about the variations in Butia, and now we have a whole slew of new ones...

Either way, he was basing his comparisons of the two based on descriptions of blackburniana from the late 1800s but chose not to describe it because there was no type specimen, he just mentioned it as worthy of thought.

If you are interested in reading it I can send it to you, or a google search for "sabal monograph" will pull it up. It really is quite fascinating as he goes into everything from stoma locations and leaf thickness to the evolutionary history and divergence of Sabals.

I also agree that blackburniana has come to be applied to a variety of species. I think that, like "riverside" that as it has been sold and distributed throughout the years people have gotten seed mixed up with other Sabals. After all, it happens all the time with the Dypsis people love to talk about

-Krishna

[Kailua_Krish]

A confusing genus indeed.

Kew Checklist list S. blackburniana as a synonym to S. palmetto.

What I like about Scott Zona's Monograph - not only is it the most thorough (as you mentioned) monograph of the genus, all collections and observations have been made exclusively in habitat. This is not the case for most other Sabal articles I've seen. Authors study many of the species in botanical gardens adding to the overall confusion. Many botanical gardens, arboretums and private collections have mis-labeled Sabals making studies unreliable.

It is very nice, that is why I am trying to use it to ID the plants at USF Botanical Gardens. I would love to be able to get down to the microscopic level like Zona did as it appears there is a lot of difference in Sabal leaf structure that isnt immediately apparent to the naked eye.

I also liked his analysis of the evolution of Sabal, it reminded me of that post on the Sabalites fossil that was posted recently. I thought it was really interesting to see how the Sabals were related!

-Krishna

[Eric in Orlando]

We have a palm that was labeled "blackburniana/umbraculifera" when we got it and it looks to be S. bermudana. Also have one that what labeled "bermudana" but it is something else, a very large trunked palm with huge fronds, I think it may be a green form of S. uresana.

[sonoranfans]

I also agree that blackburniana has come to be applied to a variety of species. I think that, like "riverside" that as it has been sold and distributed throughout the years people have gotten seed mixed up with other Sabals. After all, it happens all the time with the Dypsis people love to talk about

-Krishna

I think that perhaps riverside might be a hybrid, and the seed has mostly been decended from one palm. I had a small one in AZ, and it was easily 2x as fast as any other sabal I have ever seen. I have never seen a 15 gallon sabal grow so fast.... There have also been florida sabals depicted on this board that might be hybrids, among palmettos but with different characteristics, much bigger and different fruits. Some say that because sabals have a little different seasonal flowering schedules that hybridization is unlikely, but surely some get through since weather can be so unpredictable and variable.

[Kailua_Krish]

I also agree that blackburniana has come to be applied to a variety of species. I think that, like "riverside" that as it has been sold and distributed throughout the years people have gotten seed mixed up with other Sabals. After all, it happens all the time with the Dypsis people love to talk about

-Krishna

I think that perhaps riverside might be a hybrid, and the seed has mostly been decended from one palm. I had a small one in AZ, and it was easily 2x as fast as any other sabal I have ever seen. I have never seen a 15 gallon sabal grow so fast.... There have also been florida sabals depicted on this board that might be hybrids, among palmettos but with different characteristics, much bigger and different fruits. Some say that because sabals have a little different seasonal flowering schedules that hybridization is unlikely, but surely some get through since weather can be so unpredictable and variable.

I bought what was supposed to be a riverside online and it has been one of my slowest growers

Ive been reading the old riverside threads on here and I havent been able to get a good feel for what I should be looking for. Supposedly there is a riverside in the USF Botanical gardens and I need to pick it out from a clump of other sabal species, why they planted them all so close I will never know... Anyways, it seems some people have stated that they are similar to bermudana and some have said otherwise. Do you have any hints as to things to look for?

I do love Sabal's though and think they are a very underappreciated genus, particularly the Caribbean giants! Its too bad the big ones take so long to get any real size...

-Krishna

[Kailua_Krish]

We have a palm that was labeled "blackburniana/umbraculifera" when we got it and it looks to be S. bermudana. Also have one that what labeled "bermudana" but it is something else, a very large trunked palm with huge fronds, I think it may be a green form of S. uresana.

Eric, what do you look for in a green uresana to ID it?

-Krishna

[sonoranfans]

I also agree that blackburniana has come to be applied to a variety of species. I think that, like "riverside" that as it has been sold and distributed throughout the years people have gotten seed mixed up with other Sabals. After all, it happens all the time with the Dypsis people love to talk about

-Krishna

I think that perhaps riverside might be a hybrid, and the seed has mostly been decended from one palm. I had a small one in AZ, and it was easily 2x as fast as any other sabal I have ever seen. I have never seen a 15 gallon sabal grow so fast.... There have also been florida sabals depicted on this board that might be hybrids, among palmettos but with different characteristics, much bigger and different fruits. Some say that because sabals have a little different seasonal flowering schedules that hybridization is unlikely, but surely some get through since weather can be so unpredictable and variable.

I bought what was supposed to be a riverside online and it has been one of my slowest growers

Ive been reading the old riverside threads on here and I havent been able to get a good feel for what I should be looking for. Supposedly there is a riverside in the USF Botanical gardens and I need to pick it out from a clump of other sabal species, why they planted them all so close I will never know... Anyways, it seems some people have stated that they are similar to bermudana and some have said otherwise. Do you have any hints as to things to look for?

I do love Sabal's though and think they are a very underappreciated genus, particularly the Caribbean giants! Its too bad the big ones take so long to get any real size...

-Krishna

The riverside I had was from a socal nursery and was a 15 gallon. It looked a little like a carribean sabal, but with more blue on it. I think buying one online would be tricky unless you were willing to buy from a reputable california grower like Phil Bergman (Jungle music) or Gary Woods(south coast palms, where mine came from). Mine pushed 4 new fronds in the next 5 summer months after planting. My experience with sabals has been they tend to go real slow just after planting, but not that riverside...

[Kailua_Krish]

Yeah, mine was from a random seller (eBay) so I have a Sabal "who knows", at least it doesnt appear to be a palmetto.

-Krishna

[Eric in Orlando]

Sabal "Riverside" has been very slow here, too. In fact the slowest of the Sabals we have planted out. It was planted in March 1996 from a 3 gal. pot and is still only about 5ft tall overall.

[Eric in Orlando]

We have a palm that was labeled "blackburniana/umbraculifera" when we got it and it looks to be S. bermudana. Also have one that what labeled "bermudana" but it is something else, a very large trunked palm with huge fronds, I think it may be a green form of S. uresana.

Eric, what do you look for in a green uresana to ID it?

-Krishna

It looks like our silver S. uresana but is green; large fronds, long petioles and thick trunk. But its not S. causiarum or domingensis. It has about 4-5ft of trunk but hasn't flowered yet so don't know what the fruit looks like. I've had a couple other people say it looks like S. uresana, too. So just speculation still right now.

[Kailua_Krish]

Does anyone know who I could ask about the globose verses pyriform seeds Sabal bermudana? I am really curious about this and would like to know the official answer from the palm botany deities.

-Krishna

[sarasota alex]

Personally if I see a palm labeled S. bermudana with globose seeds, I would question the label, purity of that palms genes and/or possible cross-pollination before I would question the information in the monograph.

[Ampli]

Hi Eric, IMO the Sabal in the pics isn't S. Bermudana, because the inflorescence is too long for a S. Bermudana.

Do you know how many brach the inflorescence have??? A more close picture of the inflorescence will help.

[JD in the OC]

Definitely S. bermudana