Rust spots on stem, frizzling ends on older leaves

[lucky1]

Kinda like Murphy's Law....

After 10+ years of using off-the-shelf non-palm fertilizers for my potted Canary Island Date, Spindle, and Triangle Palms--with all going fine--last year I finally sprung for a palm special 12-4-12 fertilizer and had it delivered from across the continent. It has all the good stuff, including trace elements in chelated form, label sample at end of post.

Last summer, gave my plants the new fertilizer twice, following label instructions of 1 oz. per gallon of water for container palms.

In short order, two things appeared. First 2 photos show effect on the Spindle. CIDP shows it too, including frond frizzle. Triangle palms have frizzle but no rust stain.

On all palms the frizzle is occurring on oldest fronds. New spears/fronds look healthy.

I had earlier in the summer given all palms some epsom salts, but only 1 tablespoon in a gallon, so that can't be it.

As I did absolutely nothing differently than other years, I'm agonizing whether there's a problem with the new fertilizer.

I hadn't even repotted recently, so nothing else changed.

I've read Floridaplants.com's Palm Nutrition Guide, and PACSOA.org's Mineral Deficiencies so many times, I could quote those excellent publications verbatim.

Other than the humic acid maybe changing the pH, I'm stumped, and simply can't believe something in this palm special fertilizer caused this.

I don't know how to block out the brand name, so will just type the ingredients:

Total N 12% (2.8% Urea Nitrogen, 2% Ammoniacal Nitrogen, 7.2% Slowly available water soluble N) 60% slowly avail. Nitrogen from Methylene

Av. P (P2O5) 4%

Soluble K (K2O) 12%

Chelated Iron 1% 1%

Chelated Mn 2% 2%

Chelated Mg 2% 3%

Chelated Zinc .05% .05%

Chelated Copper .05% .03%

Boron .005%

Also contains non plant food ingredients: Humic acid derived from Leonardite 2%, Sugars 2%, Yucca schidigera extract 0.1%

derived from Urea, Methylene Urea, Potassium Carbonate, Ammonium Polyphosphate, Potassium Humate, Simple/complex sugars, Iron EDTA, Manganese EDTA, Magnesium EDTA, Zinc EDTA, Copper EDTA, Boric Acid, Chelating agent EDTA.

And no, it's not the cerveza...not a drop got on the palms

I'm really stumped what to do...would you throw out the fertilizer?

Barb

[LJG]

Spots on trunk and old leaf bases look like sunburn.

[Mark Heath]

I see that your palms are potted. It could be that you have salt buildup because of too much fertilizer.

You would need to flush your soil w/ alot of water and bump up to a larger pot if possable.

I have seen palms that are planted close to the coast w/ the salt spray ect burn their tips and have spots too.

Over a long period in the same pot and alot of fertlizer will do this.

Good luck!

Mark

[lucky1]

LJG, thanks but my hint that it's a fertilizer problem is that these palms aren't young, and problem started after using new fert at recommended label application which is obviously too high. CIDP craves full sun, with never a problem previously when outdoors 5-6 months in hot dry exposure.

Spindle and Triangles get only morning sun here all summer, with no adverse affects until now.

Mark, oh poop!

You're "bang on" with the cause, the additional downside now is the too-acidic pH, causing even more problems with K levels down the road.

AAARGH! Wish I hadn't ignored my gut feeling at the rank smell of the stuff pointing to a too-high concentration.

I dare not ask if they'll die, even with remediation.

Appreciate the help.

Thanks folks.

[LJG]

That first and third picture of the brown is from sun burn. You can even see the line where the leaf base moved back and exposed more green that was not burnt as bad. The fert burn is what is happening to your leaves. Trust me. Picture #1 is from sun burn.

[Patrick]

Barb, just my two cents but if you're thinking it is too much salt. I'd have to agree with mark in that you could flush the soil.

One way to do it is to go out and buy one of the big 'kegger' tubs that they sell at stores (you know the ones, they're big & blue or red and have rope handles?), fill that up with water and submerge the pot in that for an hour or so. That would probably leech a lot of salt, etc. out of the dirt. I've done it before & it works pretty well. Since you're in Canada and it's probably pretty darn cold, I guess the bath tub is a good indoor option if you don't mind cleaning up a bit.

maybe the leaf burn you're getting is also an indicator to try less fert. next time, even though you are following the instructions properly.

You could always look into adding wood ash to the soil to help with the PH problem.

Hope this helps.

Pat

[Mark Heath]

They will not die if you follow the instructions Pat gave you. You should bump up your pot size every year so the salt buildup does'nt happen. Remember, when the palm is in a pot it does'nt take too much fert to do good.

Only when the palm is field grown is when you need to hit it hard (when it's wet of course)!

[kahili]

Looking at the label-you used the correct amt, and its slow release (although I have never seen a liquid slow release before) so its harder to burn the roots with it. Although if you used the whole gallon on one small container-then that might do it, but I doubt it because the majority would run through the bottom of the pot.

If you watered these containers during the summer then you would already be leaching out any salts. Its when you never water in between fertilizing that you run the risk of high soluble salts-or when your rate of ppm is too high. However, if you do ever want to leach a pot, the best way is too just water it until water is running out of the bottom holes for 10 min or so. Then come back and do it again in a few hours. Just submerging it in a large pot will not necessarily allow the salts to run out of the bottom of the pot-and the salt stays in the water which would allow it back into the pot when you pick up the pot.

I agree with Len that the first picture might be sunburn. Even though some palms like full sun, its possible to burn a palm in the spring/summer when you first put it out in full sun, if you don't expose it gradually to the sun. At any rate-that is not from over-fertilizing.

Just seeing a little bit of one leaf, its hard to tell, but the brown tips could be from several things-mostly from under or over watering. As well, brown tips could signify chemical damage. What does the whole palm look like? Are all the leaves showing that? Have you looked at the roots? They are the first to show damage from the salts.

I would do a PH test before you start to add lime. I don't think that this is from a too low PH. I don't think that 2% humic acid is going to alter your PH that much. But a test would tell you for sure.

The Canariensis palm looks fine to me. Whats wrong with it? How do the leaves look?

If it was due to high soluble salts, then the fert is already gone (assuming that your last application was in Aug or Sept and its a 3-4 month release program, so the palms should be recovering. If you use it again, then use half the amt and that should absolutely not do any damage. I personally use either a liquid feed of 20-10-20 at 200 ppm once a week or Multicote 4 which is a granular slow release. One Tablespoon/gallon size pot and you are good to go. Never had a problem with it.

[lucky1]

Thanks for all these thought-provoking, obviously well-informed replies which really have helped!

Now the trick is to keep 'em alive indoors another 3.5 months until proper flushing can be done on the patio.

Will work on a "quasi-flush" indoors in the meantime.

To answer questions and follow up on everyones' excellent comments:

Firstly, the "sunburn" that I thought was caused by over-fert/chemical damage was indeed sunburn, a coincidence on the timing.

Apologize for doubting your initial reply, LJG...yup, I trust you.

Patrick's kegging idea is a good way to protect my floors, yet Kahili's comment is plausible because I can't see a way to suspend (nor could I hold) these heavy pots above draining water over a keg without water running back in. I'm contemplating a stack of bricks in the keg to prevent that, if ceiling clearance allows.

Dragging these pots up 8 stairs to nearest bath tub is now Plan B.

My pH comment was just "looking ahead", will pick up a test kit.

Being Canadian, there's no shortage of wood ashes this time of year

Mark, the 1 oz / 1 gallon instructions were for interiorscapes; since then I've received advice from yet another very knowledgeable individual, that explained the PPM of that "dilution":

The recommendation of one ounce to one gallon water is MUCH too high for potted plants, which is 950 ppm nitrogen. One teaspoon per gallon water will give you 158 ppm N, which is fine for adult palms in the active growing season. I use 25% of that rate for the cool season and slow growing seedlings at every feeding.

The additional sentence was quite disturbing: " they figured the rate of application on the 2% Ammoniacal Nitrogen only!"

kahili's comment:

Although if you used the whole gallon on one small container-then that might do it

Each of my palm pots likely holds a gallon of water before it runs out the bottom, so maybe these palms DID receive the equiv of 2 oz fert in one application last summer after all.

And, yes, since they are now indoors where it's warm, (dare I say it...) I gave them an additional fert application, but somewhat less, in November.

Somewhat better shots of them from several weeks to a few months ago, but leaf frizzle and "rust" had begun on all of them, incl. along the CIDP petiole.

I can't find the pic of 3 Triangles but their leaf end frizzles resemble the others.

Again, your thoughtful suggestions are really appreciated.

Flushing remediation--one form or another--will begin Sunday, when there's some "muscle" available here to assist.

Gratefully,

Barb

[lucky1]

A better CIDP shot

Barb

[Patrick]

Patrick's kegging idea is a good way to protect my floors, yet Kahili's comment is plausible because I can't see a way to suspend (nor could I hold) these heavy pots above draining water over a keg without water running back in. I'm contemplating a stack of bricks in the keg to prevent that, if ceiling clearance allows.

I may have explained this poorly. I was just talking about submerging the pot in the bucket so that the dirt and pot are totally underwater, and leave it there for a few minutes. Of course picking that submerged pot up out of the water would be a strain...

[kahili]

Lucky-if this is a slow release fert of some kind-then that means that the nitrogen is not releasing all at once. that means that its not 950 ppm. It is something a lot less. I tried to figure out the ppm myself this am, but then stopped because you can't compare a quick release like liquid fert and this fert that you have that is not quick release, so their rate is probably correct. Also, you would have seen signs of salt burn within a week or less of the first application. Like I said before, I have never seen a liquid slow release before and I grow for a living and landscapers are my customers-so between all of us, and my supplier, I am surprised that I haven't. Does this fert come in a regular crystal form that dissolves in water easily?

Looking at your plants, they look fine to me, from what I can see. I don't think that you have been over fertilizing them. There may be something else happening, but its not soluble salts burn. I would not leach them. The leaf frizzle that you talk about looks like either a watering issue or just the older leaves aging. I have the same on the older leaves of my large spindle and I suspect that its partly because of the age of the leaves and also because I have not done the best of jobs watering it this winter. I tend to grow them on the dry side in the winter, and its not the only palm with brown tips on the older leaves. Its also sort of dry inside in the winter.

If you do leach-just put the pot in the bathtub and let the water run down the drain, that will insure that the salts don't go back in the pot. Your palms are beautiful, I think that you have done a great job getting them to that size! I do think that fertilizer is kind of strange.....

[lucky1]

Explanation was understood, Patrick, just my way of exploring options.

The Spindle will probably "accept" 2 gallons water in its 28-inch tall pot. At about 10 pounds for each gallon of water (if I remember any Physics) plus soil plus pot plus stem/foliage/root weight, it would be undoable to allow it to sit totally immersed, whether the salts do, or do not, leach out/re-enter the container. We wouldn't be able to pick it up.

kahili, I haven't seen this fert advertised in a crystal form, but it does say feeding lasts 3-4 months.

After all this good advice from everyone...I'd really like to NOT go through the leaching process until they're out on the patio in ... oh ... another 3.5 months.

Am already having a whack of bug trouble this winter.

For the first time ever, I've got 'em all...spider mites, soft scale, fungus gnats....oh, and some mealybug on a new Cocos that I inadvertently forgot to quarantine.

Also absolutely positive my recent acquisition PDP has palmetto weevil, of all things.

Other than changing my avatar name to "unlucky", I'm trying everything to get rid of bugs: heavy mistings 2x / day of soap/water/alcohol, and just in case the folklore is correct, have planted garlic cloves in each pot's soil...carrying that one step further, have even draped Bounce dryer sheets in petioles.

My livingroom--now resplendent with look-a-like Buddhist flags, albeit white--looks like a Plant Triage station.

Husband is NOT impressed at all.

If I leave the house, he might drag them all out into the snow. :lol:

ah...that's the pics of 3 little Triangles with frizzled fronds.

Suppose we'll see what tomorrow brings...thanks!

Barb