Butia capitata vs. yatay

[JMBreland]

I am observing numerous tall Butias here in Jacksonville, FL, and been perpeutally wondering whether they are capitatas or yatays. I read in Cold Hardy Palms that capitata's flower spathes are smooth on the outer surface while yatay's flower spathes are conspiciously grooved. I have also noted based on seed pictures I've found online of each species that yatay's seeds are more oblong or teardrop-shaped while capitata's seeds are more rounded. I am aware that yatays grow much taller than capitatas, so I wonder what's the maximum height a capitata can attain so that I can immediately rule out whether a given Butia is a capitata if it's beyond this height cap.

Can anybody here give me a nice, sure-fire way to tell the capitatas apart from the yatays at any stage?

[edbrown_III]

Glassman says 5m as opposed to 8-12 m for Butia yatay.

Of course this is based upon habitat averages I suspect B. capitata will get taller under long term cultivation.

I looked at a number of Butias in Jax (about 15 years ago) thinkng the same thing as you. I didnt find any true B. yatays.

Flower bundle is much different many rachillae (> 100)almost like a Queen palm, as a opposed to the few that B. capitata has. Seeds are significantly larger too. perhaps 2x the size of a B. capitata. Botanists usely classify along reproductive structures sizes etc as there is a evolutionary basis for the classification.

I can send a key if you are interested as I looked and looked but didnt find a yatay --- I would be interested to see if there are any B. yatays here other than in Botanical gardens.

Best regards

Ed

[JLeVert]

I planted a range of Butias at the school where I teach: B. odorata, yatay, eriospatha, purpurescens, bonnettii. They are all planted near each other growing under the same conditions. I will be interested to see if (1) they are actually what they were labeled as and (2) if they are really different looking from each other. So far, everybody but the purpurescens is looking like a generic B. capitata. Time will tell!

[AggiePalms]

I planted a range of Butias at the school where I teach: B. odorata, yatay, eriospatha, purpurescens, bonnettii. They are all planted near each other growing under the same conditions. I will be interested to see if (1) they are actually what they were labeled as and (2) if they are really different looking from each other. So far, everybody but the purpurescens is looking like a generic B. capitata. Time will tell!

Joe - way to go! good teaching tool, and lots of fun to see species differences throughout growth. I would be interested in seeing those next time I get to Augusta.

[merrillwx]

My Butia yatay seeded from Concordia Citrus Station in Entre Rios, Argentina, where there is a large grove of uniform yatay of great age, certainly over 100 years and ca. 60 feet tall. This is just one specimen, but has a quite small inflorescence with the characteristic large yatay fruit. It has bloomed for quite a few years, but never fruited unless pollen was stored in 'frige before being applied. I'd be hard pressed to distinguish yatay in its earlier non-blooming years, but it is obvious when fruiting. It is in Gainesville, Fla. My impression is that there is at least one other yatay in North Florida outside of Bot. Gardens.

Best Wishes,

merrill

Edited November 20, 2010 by merrillwx

[merrillwx]

deleted

Edited November 20, 2010 by merrillwx

[edbrown_III]

Merrill

where is the other B. yatay--- I know you have one but I wasnt aware of any around Jacksonville

Regards

Ed

[merrillwx]

Hi, Ed:

My memory is poor, as you know. Someone posted another "yatay" from North Florida, no more info, quite a few years ago. Because of its height, it was perfectly plausible as a B. yatay.

Someone more able w/ computers might be able to find it; there isn't much extant about yatay.

Hope all is well w/ you and yours.

Best Wishes,

merrill.

[Nigel]

The problem with Glassmans descriptions of capitata is that they are based on plants which are most likely catarinensis.

The most likely scenario ( if the seeds are rounded ) is that the Butias could be odorata from uruguay , in which case they can be similar height to Yatay ,so height is not the deciding factor, you need to look at flower, seed, and height together to assess which species.

[merrillwx]

Hi, Nigel:

It is fascinating that odorata matches yatay height! Any chance of a photo of a 60 foot odorata? How do the growth rates compare? Always happy to see your posts.

Best Wishes,

merrill

[Nigel]

Hi, Nigel:

It is fascinating that odorata matches yatay height! Any chance of a photo of a 60 foot odorata? How do the growth rates compare? Always happy to see your posts.

Best Wishes,

merrill

merrill , I only have these pics.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Nigel

[merrillwx]

Hi, Nigel:

Many Thanks for posting those shots. I'd been completely unaware of these extremely tall odorata palms! What do their fruit and seed look like?

Thanks Again,

merrill

[Nigel]

Hi, Nigel:

Many Thanks for posting those shots. I'd been completely unaware of these extremely tall odorata palms! What do their fruit and seed look like?

Thanks Again,

merrill

merrill, it is a sweet pumpkin shaped fruit lacking fibre, with a large ( for Butia ) round seed.

In Uruguay there is both odorata and yatay, odorata attains normal height of 8-10 metres, and yatay 10-12 metres.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Nigel

[merrillwx]

Hi, Nigel:

Thank You very much. I had no inkling there was competition for height between yatay and another Butia. I met a researcher from the Citrus Station in Entre Rios; he estimated the age of the yatays there at 400 years, if my memory serves. It's been so long since I've seen a photograph of those yatays it is difficult for me ro resurrect, but they seemed to uniformly be the same height, ca. 60 feet.

It is so interesting to run into another really tall Butia.

Best Wishes,

merrill

[Takil-Explorer]

Nigel,

Those pictures where taken near Castillos in Uruguay? Lots of B. odorata there, also plenty Syagrus.

Alexander

[Nigel]

Hi, Nigel:

I met a researcher from the Citrus Station in Entre Rios; he estimated the age of the yatays there at 400 years, if my memory serves. It's been so long since I've seen a photograph of those yatays it is difficult for me ro resurrect, but they seemed to uniformly be the same height, ca. 60 feet.

It is so interesting to run into another really tall Butia.

Best Wishes,

merrill

Hi Merrill, the age of the Uruguay odorata in my pic is estimated at 300-400 years.

[edbrown_III]

The problem with Glassmans descriptions of capitata is that they are based on plants which are most likely catarinensis.

The most likely scenario ( if the seeds are rounded ) is that the Butias could be odorata from uruguay , in which case they can be similar height to Yatay ,so height is not the deciding factor, you need to look at flower, seed, and height together to assess which species.

Nigel,

Good to hear from you-- I went and reread the Glassman 79' he listed B. capitata plants from MG to Santa Caterina to Uruguay

so it was based upon all of the plants but he just didnt discriminate on the seeds shapes as is now listed as a difference. So the B. odoratas are in the mix of plants listed as B. capiatata . Thats my point the size is not a reliable indicator as these things are classified by seed and flower morphology. I suspect these B. capitatas get much larger in cultivation. Theres a very large B. capitata on my way home from work -- I have to start looking at these closer-- particularly in light of your keen observations on seed shape.

This is a very intersting topic.

Best regards

Ed

[JMBreland]

Thank you for all your responses! Yes this is indeed an intriguing topic. I did not know that the palms sold as B. capitata in the Southeast are probably actually either B. catarinensis or B. odorata or possibly hybrids with B. capitata.

Nigel, you mentioned a Butia catarinensis. I have never heard of that species, so I looked it up and, alas, i came across your site. It's fascinating! Now, I am a tad bit confused. You said on the page about B. catarinensis that this species was formerly B. capitata var. odorata. What about B. odorata? Is that still a separate species? Or is it because var. odorata is now recognized as a species, B. capitata is tossed out and replaced with B. odorata? Or do we still have B. capitata in the current classification scheme?

Ed, I'm very much interested in the key. Please do send it to me: jbreland@ufl.edu. Many thanks!

Edited November 23, 2010 by JMBreland

[Kailua_Krish]

Thank you for all your responses! Yes this is indeed an intriguing topic. I did not know that the palms sold as B. capitata in the Southeast are probably actually either B. catarinensis or B. odorata or possibly hybrids with B. capitata.

Nigel, you mentioned a Butia catarinensis. I have never heard of that species, so I looked it up and, alas, i came across your site. It's fascinating! Now, I am a tad bit confused. You said on the page about B. catarinensis that this species was formerly B. capitata var. odorata. What about B. odorata? Is that still a separate species? Or is it because var. odorata is now recognized as a species, B. capitata is tossed out and replaced with B. odorata? Or do we still have B. capitata in the current classification scheme?

Ed, I'm very much interested in the key. Please do send it to me: jbreland@ufl.edu. Many thanks!

B. capitata is still a species, but it is not the species that most people in the US have in cultivation. What has been known in the US as B. capitata is now most likely B. odorata. What was known in the trade as B. capitata var. odorata, is now B. catarinensis.

I think I have this right

-Krishna

[Nigel]

Thank you for all your responses! Yes this is indeed an intriguing topic. I did not know that the palms sold as B. capitata in the Southeast are probably actually either B. catarinensis or B. odorata or possibly hybrids with B. capitata.

Nigel, you mentioned a Butia catarinensis. I have never heard of that species, so I looked it up and, alas, i came across your site. It's fascinating! Now, I am a tad bit confused. You said on the page about B. catarinensis that this species was formerly B. capitata var. odorata. What about B. odorata? Is that still a separate species? Or is it because var. odorata is now recognized as a species, B. capitata is tossed out and replaced with B. odorata? Or do we still have B. capitata in the current classification scheme?

Ed, I'm very much interested in the key. Please do send it to me: jbreland@ufl.edu. Many thanks!

B. capitata is still a species, but it is not the species that most people in the US have in cultivation. What has been known in the US as B. capitata is now most likely B. odorata. What was known in the trade as B. capitata var. odorata, is now B. catarinensis.

I think I have this right

-Krishna

In the US the many `capitata` are in fact odorata ( round seeds ) or catarinensis ( elongated seeds ) ,the true capitata is the original from central brasil not in cultivation.

[JMBreland]

Wow, after all those years of thinking that we have the B. capitata! How does the true capitata's seeds, fruit, and inflorescences compare to odorata?

What resource(s) do you recommend for botanical descriptions of all the Butias? Is there a botanical book detailing the plants of your area?

[Nigel]

Wow, after all those years of thinking that we have the B. capitata! How does the true capitata's seeds, fruit, and inflorescences compare to odorata?

What resource(s) do you recommend for botanical descriptions of all the Butias? Is there a botanical book detailing the plants of your area?

Harri Lorenzi,s new book Palms of Brasil is available in english, and contains all the new classifications since review of the species with Dr Noblick.

[Takil-Explorer]

And the biggest wild populations of Butia odorata, the former called B. capitata, are found in Rocha province in South Eastern Uruguay. You get large stand close to Castillos for example. I have seen them there!

Alexander

[calyptrocalyx&licuala freck]

And the biggest wild populations of Butia odorata, the former called B. capitata, are found in Rocha province in South Eastern Uruguay. You get large stand close to Castillos for example. I have seen them there!

Alexander

Hi .. I have a soft spot for Butia's Have ya got any pic's they sound huge

Cheers Mikey

[Nigel]

And the biggest wild populations of Butia odorata, the former called B. capitata, are found in Rocha province in South Eastern Uruguay. You get large stand close to Castillos for example. I have seen them there!

Alexander

Hi .. I have a soft spot for Butia's Have ya got any pic's they sound huge

Cheers Mikey

The IPS organised a tour to Rocha ,there is some more pics here http://www.palms.org/biennial_2010.cfm

here is uruguay website dedicated to preservation with lots of info and pics http://ogritodaspalmeiras.blogspot.com/

[howfam]

I am observing numerous tall Butias here in Jacksonville, FL, and been perpeutally wondering whether they are capitatas or yatays. I read in Cold Hardy Palms that capitata's flower spathes are smooth on the outer surface while yatay's flower spathes are conspiciously grooved. I have also noted based on seed pictures I've found online of each species that yatay's seeds are more oblong or teardrop-shaped while capitata's seeds are more rounded. I am aware that yatays grow much taller than capitatas, so I wonder what's the maximum height a capitata can attain so that I can immediately rule out whether a given Butia is a capitata if it's beyond this height cap.

Can anybody here give me a nice, sure-fire way to tell the capitatas apart from the yatays at any stage?

JMBreland:

Check out this huge Butia here in Jacksonville, Fl., possibly B. odorata or maybe even B. yatay. I'll bet it's around 100 years old.

[_Keith]

I am observing numerous tall Butias here in Jacksonville, FL, and been perpeutally wondering whether they are capitatas or yatays. I read in Cold Hardy Palms that capitata's flower spathes are smooth on the outer surface while yatay's flower spathes are conspiciously grooved. I have also noted based on seed pictures I've found online of each species that yatay's seeds are more oblong or teardrop-shaped while capitata's seeds are more rounded. I am aware that yatays grow much taller than capitatas, so I wonder what's the maximum height a capitata can attain so that I can immediately rule out whether a given Butia is a capitata if it's beyond this height cap.

Can anybody here give me a nice, sure-fire way to tell the capitatas apart from the yatays at any stage?

JMBreland:

Check out this huge Butia here in Jacksonville, Fl., possibly B. odorata or maybe even B. yatay. I'll bet it's around 100 years old.

OK, the gate is open. Someone has to find out the history on this one.

[Moose]

I planted a range of Butias at the school where I teach: B. odorata, yatay, eriospatha, purpurescens, bonnettii. They are all planted near each other growing under the same conditions. I will be interested to see if (1) they are actually what they were labeled as and (2) if they are really different looking from each other. So far, everybody but the purpurescens is looking like a generic B. capitata. Time will tell!

Lets see them pictures so we all can tell

[JMBreland]

I am observing numerous tall Butias here in Jacksonville, FL, and been perpeutally wondering whether they are capitatas or yatays. I read in Cold Hardy Palms that capitata's flower spathes are smooth on the outer surface while yatay's flower spathes are conspiciously grooved. I have also noted based on seed pictures I've found online of each species that yatay's seeds are more oblong or teardrop-shaped while capitata's seeds are more rounded. I am aware that yatays grow much taller than capitatas, so I wonder what's the maximum height a capitata can attain so that I can immediately rule out whether a given Butia is a capitata if it's beyond this height cap.

Can anybody here give me a nice, sure-fire way to tell the capitatas apart from the yatays at any stage?

JMBreland:

Check out this huge Butia here in Jacksonville, Fl., possibly B. odorata or maybe even B. yatay. I'll bet it's around 100 years old.

That's got to be the tallest Butia in all of Jax!! What's its location?!

[_Keith]

I am observing numerous tall Butias here in Jacksonville, FL, and been perpeutally wondering whether they are capitatas or yatays. I read in Cold Hardy Palms that capitata's flower spathes are smooth on the outer surface while yatay's flower spathes are conspiciously grooved. I have also noted based on seed pictures I've found online of each species that yatay's seeds are more oblong or teardrop-shaped while capitata's seeds are more rounded. I am aware that yatays grow much taller than capitatas, so I wonder what's the maximum height a capitata can attain so that I can immediately rule out whether a given Butia is a capitata if it's beyond this height cap.

Can anybody here give me a nice, sure-fire way to tell the capitatas apart from the yatays at any stage?

JMBreland:

Check out this huge Butia here in Jacksonville, Fl., possibly B. odorata or maybe even B. yatay. I'll bet it's around 100 years old.

That's got to be the tallest Butia in all of Jax!! What's its location?!

Might very well be the tallest one in the US.

[howfam]

I am observing numerous tall Butias here in Jacksonville, FL, and been perpeutally wondering whether they are capitatas or yatays. I read in Cold Hardy Palms that capitata's flower spathes are smooth on the outer surface while yatay's flower spathes are conspiciously grooved. I have also noted based on seed pictures I've found online of each species that yatay's seeds are more oblong or teardrop-shaped while capitata's seeds are more rounded. I am aware that yatays grow much taller than capitatas, so I wonder what's the maximum height a capitata can attain so that I can immediately rule out whether a given Butia is a capitata if it's beyond this height cap.

Can anybody here give me a nice, sure-fire way to tell the capitatas apart from the yatays at any stage?

JMBreland:

Check out this huge Butia here in Jacksonville, Fl., possibly B. odorata or maybe even B. yatay. I'll bet it's around 100 years old.

That's got to be the tallest Butia in all of Jax!! What's its location?!

Without giving its exact location (for owner's privacy), I can tell you it's off the 6900 block of Beach Bv. on West Rd. I've been to the owner's house twice but he was not there either time. Try Instant Google Street View to find it.

Also check another tall Butia here in Jacksonville on N. Liberty St. near 4th St.

[Tyrone]

I've never seen such tall Butias before. I never really think of them with much trunk.

[howfam]

Check out more tall Butias in Jacksonville, Fl.--

[edbrown_III]

Good show George !

last day of work is Tues some time to go around Jax (land of the real man) and take some photos of large Butias countless plants down all the old neighborhoods here --- theres a beautiful one right behind a spanish type villa on St Jose ave just past Bolles school --- it must be 40 feet tall theres another one by Quest labs on University near the hospital just as tall

they really look great as they get a lanky curvy architecture

Best regards

Ed

[howfam]

Good show George !

last day of work is Tues some time to go around Jax (land of the real man) and take some photos of large Butias countless plants down all the old neighborhoods here --- theres a beautiful one right behind a spanish type villa on St Jose ave just past Bolles school --- it must be 40 feet tall theres another one by Quest labs on University near the hospital just as tall

they really look great as they get a lanky curvy architecture

Best regards

Ed

Hey Ed:

I didn't think the big Butia near Bolles school was still there, but I'll double check. Enjoyed the party at your house last Saturday, palms really matured. I can't wait until the next one, hopefully at Matt or Kyles place (good collections also). In the mean time check out another big Butia in Jacksonville on the Northside at Vernon and Division Streets (2 pics same palm).

[howfam]

Here's still another tall Butia here in Jacksonville, Fl. , this one in Restlawn cemetery on the North side of town.

[Matthew92]

The palm in the first picture below is a good representative of the height of most Butias in my area. As far as I can tell, for most of them, this is the height they max out at. Of course I've seen variation with some a little taller, a little shorter, and other difference in characteristics. However, I've seen a couple that seem to be significantly different and are not stopping at growing upward. Wondering if these could be yatay.

Now here's two suspect yatays

This one below I've driven by many times in the last almost 10 years. It used to be much shorter. In the last few years though, I suddenly came to the realization that it was not stopping growth in height and now attempting to surpass the roof line of that two story house. In addition, that little subdivision of houses is not that old: maybe being built in the late 80's or early 90's, so I don't think this Butia is THAT old.

I would love to grow the tall Butia yatay in my area. I'm tired of the low 10-15 foot Butia all over the place. The height would be exciting and a nice change for the area. Someday I would like to acquire seeds from tall trees like these below:

 

[howfam]

On 6/8/2015 at 10:17 PM, howfam said:

JMBreland:

 

Check out this huge Butia here in Jacksonville, Fl., possibly B. odorata or maybe even B. yatay. I'll bet it's around 100 years old.

Hello all.  I passed by this location several month's ago , maybe late summer 2018, only to find this palm is now gone . I think it got infected with some fungus or something since the other sizable Butia across the yard looked stressed as well. Glad I took pics when I did. It really showed what's possible with Butia here in north Florida. 

[climate change virginia]

On 11/19/2010 at 6:40 AM, JMBreland said:

I am observing numerous tall Butias here in Jacksonville, FL, and been perpeutally wondering whether they are capitatas or yatays. I read in Cold Hardy Palms that capitata's flower spathes are smooth on the outer surface while yatay's flower spathes are conspiciously grooved. I have also noted based on seed pictures I've found online of each species that yatay's seeds are more oblong or teardrop-shaped while capitata's seeds are more rounded. I am aware that yatays grow much taller than capitatas, so I wonder what's the maximum height a capitata can attain so that I can immediately rule out whether a given Butia is a capitata if it's beyond this height cap.

 

Can anybody here give me a nice, sure-fire way to tell the capitatas apart from the yatays at any stage?

look at the seeds yatay looks like a football and capitata seeds look like soccer balls