Licuala naumanii

[Dypsisdean]

While doing some research on where and how to plant this species, I seem to have come across some conflicting info. PACSOA states it is a medium sized palm, with a trunk up to 5 ft. But in Riffle/Craft's Encyclopedia of Cultivated Palms it states that it is among the genus' tallest species, growing to 30 ft. In addition the photos from the two sources look very different.

Does anyone know for sure what is going on here?

[ariscott]

I have one... I will see whether it is worth taking photos of...

Regards, Ari

[Dypsisdean]

I have one... I will see whether it is worth taking photos of...

Regards, Ari

Please do Ari. I think I have the one pictured in Riffle/Craft's book. If you have the one claimed to be the "real deal" in PACSOA, then I guess we flip a coin. I'll post a pic of mine in a pot if it's different than yours. Where is Mikey when we need him?

[LilikoiLee]

Dean and Ari,

We purchased a L. naumoniensis from Bo-Goran. At the time he mentioned some issue with the name, but I don't remember what it was. Is this the same palm? Naumoniensis is on Kew (without any synomyn) but naumanii isn't. PACSOA doesn't list any synonyms for naumanii. Please clarify if you can.

Thanks,

Lee

[realarch]

Hi Lee, I also acquired one from Bo a few years back and the name he was using at the time was naumanii. We talked briefly about the name change last year and he said it had been changed to naumoniensis.

I had intensions of keeping it in a pot on the lanai, but it started to languish so I put it in the ground earlier in the year. Still rather small so I don't know what to expect.

[Dypsisdean]

Lee,

With your info, I think I have come up with the following "clarification." (If you can call it that)

I talked with Bo and found some pics of his L. naumoniensis. It appears as if his is the same as the one I have, and the same as the one pictured in Riffle/Craft's book. However, the photos I found on the Fairchild site and the PACSOA site appear different. But with these Licuala's there are differences from leaf to leaf and as they mature. But at any rate, it Bo's plant is IDed correctly, then PACSOA's description as a shorter plant is correct. And Riffle's as a 30 ft. plant is incorrect.

The first is Bo's, the second is Fairchild's, and the third is PACSOA's

[ariscott]

Mine is still small too, though Dean. I doubt that it will clear any confusion!! If you still want the photo, I can take them after taking the kids everywhere today...

Regards, Ari

[Dypsisdean]

Mine is still small too, though Dean. I doubt that it will clear any confusion!! If you still want the photo, I can take them after taking the kids everywhere today...

Regards, Ari

No need Ari. But I am curious as to whether yours has the wider center leaflet as Bo's and mine and Riffle's does.

[Dypsisdean]

And to make matters worse, there is a species named Licuala nauroannii - just the type of name than is close enough to be misread or confused with D. naumanii on sloppy or old plant tags.

[LilikoiLee]

So which is the correct name? I though Kew was THE authority, but it doesn't even list naumanii as a synonym. I googled both names: they're both in wide use. After purchasing the same palm two or more times because the seller was using a different new or old) name I try to keep with the synonyms on Kew and PACSOA. Is there a more reliable source?

Lee

[Dypsisdean]

Is there a more reliable source?

Lee

Maybe Mikey

Perhaps Ari could get him to chime in???

[ariscott]

This is mine... I was worried it might look too ratty (and it is) because of the wind that we have been getting during the dry season. This is the worst time of the year to take pics. The palms have been getting hammered by the dry wind and now the heat that comes with the build up. Come December, you probably won't know it (that is when the monsoon hits & everything should go back to normal). And this palms have only been in the ground for 3 months, so a lot of suffering...

But this is one of the leaves anyway, for comparison...

I will try to get Mikey on the board. Let's see whether I can get him out of his cave :)

Regards, Ari

[Dypsisdean]

Thanks Ari,

Nothing to be ashamed of there. It looks better than the three I just put in the ground. Is that full sun?

[ariscott]

No... it is under 50% shadecloth, until my Cassia grows!! If I put it in full sun, it will burn to death

Regards, Ari

[ariscott]

Just talked to Mikey. He said hello to everyone and apologised that due to his health, he hasn't been able to contribute on the board. But, after 4.5 months, his new leg will arrive on Thursday , so he is very happy about that.

He saw the pics posted and I have to quote his answer

"Licuala naumanii is a SMALL to medium size palm. It is like someone has a ray gun and shrunk Licuala ramsayi. You would have similar looking palm. The only difference would be the central lamina (leaflet) more a petal shape leaf.

It is not the first time I heard of Licuala sp. naumoniensis. I know the actual collector of he palm personally. He is well known in the palm world. I don't think it is a valid name. Maybe Anders B needs to do more work because it is confusing. This is not the same palm as Licuala naumanii.

Maybe Anders B & John Dransfield can add more"

He also mentioned that my palm is the true species and added that it would make a nice pot specimen no taller than 1.6m high.

I hope this helps... and I told Mike if I made mistake in quoting him, he had to correct it himself

Regards, Ari

Edited November 1, 2010 by ariscott

[LilikoiLee]

Wow, Ari. This is all very fascinating to me. When I get home later today I'm going to post a photo of our "naumoniensis" to see is it matches everyone else's naumanii. Thanks for getting the information from Mikey. I'm new to palms and don't know who Mikey and Anders B are. Could you please share that information?

Thanks,

Lee

[realarch]

Now I'm starting to wonder if I have the real deal or if the species is a bit variable. The central lamina on mine although a bit larger, is not as prominent as the pics of Bo's or Ari's. Curious to see what yours looks like Lee considering

we got it from the same source.

[Dypsisdean]

No... it is under 50% shadecloth, until my Cassia grows!! If I put it in full sun, it will burn to death

Regards, Ari

Ari, the reason I asked is because this is what PACSOA says - "Will grow in full sun in the tropics"

It also says - "This is one of the fastest growing Licuala's."

[bgl]

Not unexpectedly, quite a bit of confusion here, and no definite answers in sight. This is what I can add:

I bought a few of these from Palms of Paradise in Hilo many years ago. They were sold to me as Licuala naumannii and that was the name I used for many years. Until I checked the Kew site and found out that there's no such name. Despite what has been said earlier in this thread regarding this name I tend to go by Kew's list. Dransfield has worked at Kew for many years and he has been instrumental in describing many of these species. If Kew doesn't recognize a particular name (like L. naumannii) then I have to assume there's a very good reason for this. Reason being, in this case, no Licuala has ever been described using this name.

When I found out that naumannii is not a valid name, and has never been a valid name, I made an assumption (and we all know that assumptions are not good! ) - I assumed the palms I had bought from Palms of Paradise were, in fact, L. naumoniensis. Maybe they are - maybe they're not. At this point I really don't know. All I know is that these are small palms. They don't seem to get much above 6 ft/2 m. in height, even after many years. One very important aspect - it seems many of you get "distracted" by the shape of the leaflets. BIG mistake. Lots of variability, even on the very same palm. Some fronds has a wide central leaflet and some don't. Some has a lot of open space at the "bottom" of the frond (where it connects to the petiole) and some don't. Many times on the same palm. And I would never refer to these as "miniature ramsayis". Any L. ramsayi will have much wider leaflets. And I'm not talking about the size itself, but simply the fact that many ramsyi leaflets are more "entire" in their appearance. Not so with this little palm, whether it's a naumoniensis or not. Much more separation and less "entireness".

[realarch]

Thanks for that explanation Bo especially about getting 'hung up' on the leaflet size. It's a lovely little palm which I probably need a few more of. Hopefully my source still has some available.

[LilikoiLee]

Helpful clarification Bo-Goran and also helpful to know that Dransfield is considered the more reliable source. How wide is yours? If it is about as wide as it is high I'd like another one.

Tim,

I'll post that picture tonight unless it's raining or dark when I get home. Must be raining in Hilo. Both you and Bo-Goran are at your computers.

[bgl]

Lee,

Perceptive! But when you've been on the Hilo side for a while you're not going to let the rain stop you from doing things in the garden! Unless it's coming down at the rate of a couple of inches an hour. Other than that, it's business as usual! I was actually outside for a couple of hours earlier today getting rid of lots of fallen fronds. And it rained quite a bit. But now I have stuff to do on the computer. Not palm related. And to get back on topic, yes, these palms are ALMOST as wide as they're tall.

Bo-Göran

[Dypsisdean]

I have a "theory" regarding some of these names that revolves around faded labels, or those with bad penmanship. The tags in my Licualas were labeled the same as what Bo's were - "naumannii" with 2 "n's" However, the PACSOA site, and Riffle's book have a palm listed as "naumanii," with 1 "n"

I have noticed many times through the years how easily that certain letters can get "transformed" into a new name - especially with those palms that are hard to distinguish, or those with new species still being discovered - like with Dypsis, Calytrocalyx, Pinanga, and Licuala. For example, I don't think it's any surprise that a palm label or price list hand written in the field could be read as "Honkona" or "Hankona." Or an "r" taken as an "n," and so on.

So I'm not saying it is so, but I could easily see how "nauroannii" (a valid name) could become "naumonnii" which then gets labeled as "naumoniensis" since there is supposedly no "naumannii" or "naumanii" However, with both Riffle and PACSOA acknowledging a "naumanni," that would lend "some" validity to a possible name, I would think.

There - all cleared up.

[Dypsisdean]

Just talked to Mikey. He said hello to everyone and apologised that due to his health, he hasn't been able to contribute on the board. But, after 4.5 months, his new leg will arrive on Thursday , so he is very happy about that.

He saw the pics posted and I have to quote his answer

"Licuala naumanii is a SMALL to medium size palm. It is like someone has a ray gun and shrunk Licuala ramsayi. You would have similar looking palm. The only difference would be the central lamina (leaflet) more a petal shape leaf.

It is not the first time I heard of Licuala sp. naumoniensis. I know the actual collector of he palm personally. He is well known in the palm world. I don't think it is a valid name. Maybe Anders B needs to do more work because it is confusing. This is not the same palm as Licuala naumanii.

Maybe Anders B & John Dransfield can add more"

He also mentioned that my palm is the true species and added that it would make a nice pot specimen no taller than 1.6m high.

I hope this helps... and I told Mike if I made mistake in quoting him, he had to correct it himself

Regards, Ari

Ari,

Thanks for contacting Mikey and getting his take on things. I'm glad to hear a new leg is "in the mail." And I hope that would again put his palm enthusiasm back into high gear, so he can help us with all these Licualas, Calytrocalyx, and Pinangas.

Thank you too Mikey, if you are reading this.

[LilikoiLee]

Here's our Naumaniensisaroannii (it was on the tag!) Leaves are turning yellow; think the pesky laua'e is stealing nutrients. The lamina on ours seems the narrowest. Does that mean we win or lose? (Just kidding.) Though, Tim, I would like to know how wide and tall yours is. Ours is 29" tall by 35" wide. Interesting to compare Kona to Hilo, since we both got ours from Bo-Goran.

Lee

[calyptrocalyx&licuala freck]

Bo.... until Anders puts a comment in let;s wait and see eh

just like Dypsis Licuala have many var.. as we know... oh Bo did you knmow not all plant

material at Kew is RighKt Step back bo and lets see K ....

Oh Dean The true 'sp' will grow in the full sun but needs a very humind area...

cheers all....

[Dypsisdean]

Thanks for the info Mikey, and welcome back. I sure wish I could have you over for an afternoon. I picked up a collection a while back that had loads of Licuala, Pinanga, and Calyp. sp. A lot of them named, but a lot labeled as just sp. with a description or history. I've more or less given up on trying to keep them all sorted out, as the labels are starting to fade.

BTW - a slight detour - have you heard of a Licuala sp. "Big Trunk?"

[ariscott]

Here's our Naumaniensisaroannii (it was on the tag!) Leaves are turning yellow; think the pesky laua'e is stealing nutrients. The lamina on ours seems the narrowest. Does that mean we win or lose? (Just kidding.) Though, Tim, I would like to know how wide and tall yours is. Ours is 29" tall by 35" wide. Interesting to compare Kona to Hilo, since we both got ours from Bo-Goran.

Lee

For what it is worth.... that one doesn't look like mine. I have 2 and they both look the same.

Regards, Ari

[ariscott]

Thanks for the info Mikey, and welcome back. I sure wish I could have you over for an afternoon. I picked up a collection a while back that had loads of Licuala, Pinanga, and Calyp. sp. A lot of them named, but a lot labeled as just sp. with a description or history. I've more or less given up on trying to keep them all sorted out, as the labels are starting to fade.

BTW - a slight detour - have you heard of a Licuala sp. "Big Trunk?"

Lucky you, Dean... you NEED to do your own garden tour and display YOUR new collection....

Regards, Ari

[Dr. George]

BTW - a slight detour - have you heard of a Licuala sp. "Big Trunk?"

Have a couple of them.

Licuala lauterbachii var bouganvillense

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=20240&st=0&p=336354&hl=licuala&fromsearch=1&#entry336354

gmp

[ariscott]

Nice palm. I missed the original thread. Not quite sure why... .

Regards, Ari

[LilikoiLee]

BTW - a slight detour - have you heard of a Licuala sp. "Big Trunk?"

Have a couple of them.

Licuala lauterbachii var bouganvillense

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=20240&st=0&p=336354&hl=licuala&fromsearch=1&#entry336354

gmp

Where did you find these?

Lee

[Dypsisdean]

Thanks for the info Mikey, and welcome back. I sure wish I could have you over for an afternoon. I picked up a collection a while back that had loads of Licuala, Pinanga, and Calyp. sp. A lot of them named, but a lot labeled as just sp. with a description or history. I've more or less given up on trying to keep them all sorted out, as the labels are starting to fade.

BTW - a slight detour - have you heard of a Licuala sp. "Big Trunk?"

Lucky you, Dean... you NEED to do your own garden tour and display YOUR new collection....

Regards, Ari

Come to the "Moku Lani"

[Dr. George]

BTW - a slight detour - have you heard of a Licuala sp. "Big Trunk?"

Have a couple of them.

Licuala lauterbachii var bouganvillense

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=20240&st=0&p=336354&hl=licuala&fromsearch=1&#entry336354

gmp

Where did you find these?

Lee

Lee - I took these pics at what was called Kapoho Palms Nursery (now Kipuku Nursery). You, Tim and Al made an adventure there a year or so ago. That is your good buddy Miles in the pics. Once getting there, you have to hike back into the jungle where the "breeding stock" is located to find these.

gmp

[LilikoiLee]

BTW - a slight detour - have you heard of a Licuala sp. "Big Trunk?"

Have a couple of them.

Licuala lauterbachii var bouganvillense

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=20240&st=0&p=336354&hl=licuala&fromsearch=1&#entry336354

gmp

Where did you find these?

Lee

Lee - I took these pics at what was called Kapoho Palms Nursery (now Kipuku Nursery). You, Tim and Al made an adventure there a year or so ago. That is your good buddy Miles in the pics. Once getting there, you have to hike back into the jungle where the "breeding stock" is located to find these.

gmp

Got to go check that out. Thanks!

[realarch]

Bump!

After 4 years still chugging along. Whatever species this Licuala is, it's a real looker and has gotten more full and round rather than wide and tall.

Curious to see how the others have developed over the years.

Tim

[O'o Bar Master]

Lee purchased three of the L. naumannii from Bo Göran about the same time as Tim did. Two were planted in six inch holes cut into a solid blue rock slab. The third was planted in an area with more soil. The two in blue rock are the same size as the one with more soil and all three are doing well.

The first picture is one of the two planted in blue rock.

The second picture is the palm planted in more soil. Lee is in this picture for scale.

[Mandrew968]

Bump!

After 4 years still chugging along. Whatever species this Licuala is, it's a real looker and has gotten more full and round rather than wide and tall.

Curious to see how the others have developed over the years.

Tim

Licuala.jpg

This palm almost looks like fordiana--how big is it? Has it flowered--should have flowered by now if it is a fordiana... but most Licualas look alike...

[realarch]

Aloha Andrew, this one hasn't flowered yet. It's about 3.5' tall and about 5' wide.

Tim

Mike, I didn't realize Lee was such an acrobat. Does she walk the garden on her hands?

[doranakandawatta]

Lee purchased three of the L. naumannii from Bo Göran about the same time as Tim did. Two were planted in six inch holes cut into a solid blue rock slab. The third was planted in an area with more soil. The two in blue rock are the same size as the one with more soil and all three are doing well.

The first picture is one of the two planted in blue rock.

14-9-3-Licuala-naumannii-in-Hyophorbe-garden.jpg

The second picture is the palm planted in more soil. Lee is in this picture for scale.

14-9-3-Licuala-naumannii-in-Keriodoxa-Garden.jpg

HO! I can see that Lee recovered well from her operation, but….. is she always like that now?