Palms for Atlanta?

[Tag]

Hi everyone!

It's been a long time since I've visited the forums. It's been a transition time for me and I haven't been able to devote any time to my palm fascination. In the past year my wife has given birth to my second son, I've switched jobs and moved from Jax to ATL. Now that I'm getting settled, I'm looking for recommendations to add to my garden. Trachy's are the obvious choice around here, but what else would you recommend? I'll go marginal, but I'm not looking to put in too much effort other than placement around the house. I spent too many sleepless nights in Jax covering and heating my zone pushers only to have all my efforts go to waste. I've seen some random butias and sabals around town, but that's about it. What are your thoughts/experiences with mules, phoenix, European fans, etc. Any suggestions?

Thanks!

Jason

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

http://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/

Jason, sorry to hear you left JAX. We'll miss you at the JAX palm meetings. Congratulations on your 2nd son and I hope your new job is awesome!

Above I inserted a link to a very active group of people that avidly love palms. Many are in the Atlanta area and they have regular meetings that have been known to draw more than 100 attendees! They will give you tons of information about Palms for ATL. But the palete is far smaller than JAX. Certainly Trachycarpus fortunei and it's near relatives are excellent choices as are are most Sabal minors, and Rhapidiophyllum hystrix. Jubaea chiliensis is certainly worth a try (there is a nice one near Charlotte, NC) and they are widely coveted by the SE palm fans. Euro Fans, are OK (though not great), as are Butia and some of the hybrids with Butia though Mules are a real stretch. Sabal palmetto is marginal though there are some very nice specimens in greater Atlanta but mostly in the warmer microclimates (as with Butia). There is a selection known as Sabal "Birmingham" which has unknown heritage but eventually grows into a S. palmetto sized specimen and it seems to be 5-10 degrees hardier than regular S. palmetto making it a superior selection for ATL. You will occasionally see Washingtonia robusta and "filbusta" but rarely do they get over 10-15 feet tall before freezing even in the best microclimates. They also defoliate virtually every winter. In Anniston, AL there is a wonderful collection assembled mostly by Hayes Jackson. He's had success with many palms I'd never have figured would make it. It's certainly worth a trip to see it. I don't think any Phoenix is going to make it without substantial protection (or a veritable miracle microclimate). Trithrinax campestris (if you can find one) is also worth a try, though it needs its own fenced yard so that your sons are safe! Those suckers have more points than Edward Scissorhands.... it's cousin Trithrinax brasiliensis is also remarkably hardy thought I don't know if it'll cut Atlanta or not. They do well in Augusta, but thats quite a bit less hostile to palms. You might also try Serenoa repens though it's not perfectly adapted to the heavy, red clay and the winters. Just get some from the far northern part of their range otherwise the provenance will work against you. Otherwise, good luck and have fun collecting!

[Tag]

Keith,

Thanks for the response and suggestions. I'll definitely miss the meetings too. I am renting out the house in Jax, not sure when I'll ever be able to sell it with the market like it is. On that note though, I do still own a little piece of palm paradise I just don't get to see it every day. Was thinking about heading down some time to dig a few things out of the yard and transplant them like my T. Fortunei that is languishing in the sandy soil, the T. Wagnerianus (sp?), and a few others. I may dig out the Mule and transplant it to Tallahassee where my in-laws live.

I haven't experienced any winters up here yet, so I have no idea what type of microclimate that I may have. We do live in a hilly area with lots of canopy. I should be able to use the elevation differences and overhead protection to my advantage.

Thanks again!

Jason

[Rch65]

Hello Jason, what do you expect the lows to be in Atlanta? Regards Rich.

[paulgila]

hi jason.

i am going to suggest nanorrhops ritchiana & rhapidophylum hystrix. both are reputed to be extremely hardy.

i have a cold hardy area in my garden & for me the challenge has been to find some pinnate palms to mix in since most cold hardy varieties are palmate. butia seems to be a good choice to fill the niche & probably the mule palm as well. good luck!

[Palm crazy]

I think keith cover most of them, but I wouldn't leave out, Chamaedorea radicals and trunking and C. microspadix, both are very hardy with some shade.

This place should be able to help you out once you get a home, Check out Atlanta palms nursery they are one of the biggest and best....http://atlantapalms.com/products.html

Good luck and I think you'll like the folks on the SE palm board too. Alex is one of the best people to ask about palms for your area.

Roger.

[Tag]

Not really sure yet. I am located just north of Atlanta in the Sandy Springs/Dunwoody area. The 1990 map has me on the 7a/7b border. The SE palm society map has me solidly in 7b and the 2006 map has me solidly in 8a. That's a range of 5-15 degree lows. Given that, I'm probably somewhere in the middle and am expecting consistent lows if 10 degrees, with some extreme years dipping down to 5.

[Rch65]

Wow, I didn't realise how cold it got there. As previously stated, Jubaea's might be a good choice, the bigger the better. You could also try Chamaerops humilis volcano it has been just as hardy as the usual Chammy for me, if not better (no leaf spotting). Good luck with your new project. Regards Rich.

[Zeeth]

A B&B Sabal palmetto with 10+ feet of trunk would be a good palm to try

[AggiePalms]

Palms that are perfect for Savannah, so should be OK for Atlanta: Rhapidophyllum, S. minor and palmetto...most of the other trunking Sabal species are probably hardy enough (esp. the birminghamensis variety; I think the Louisiana-Brazoria-Texana series is hardy also), Washingtonias except in really cold winters, most of the temperate Butia species, Chaemerops (sp...European fan palm). As understories, some of the Chamaedorea, esp. radicalis andmicrospadix probably will work. The hardier Brahea will work temp wise, but I don't know about the hot summers, though.

Let me think some more; others are bound to be lurking in the brain.

Come on down to the SE Palm Society meeting in Savannah at the Bamboo Farm on I believe it is October 9 (definitely a Saturday). Check the Society website. Buy or trade some hardy palms from the members and the auction.

[Xenon]

Will Jubea x Butia grow in Atlanta? Those are striking ..

Jonathan

[alex_7b]

If you live in the burbs here, you can grow minors, needles and Windmills. If you live in town, it's a tad warmer and palmetto should be no problem.

Two places to check out:

1. Taco Cabaña on Piedmont Rd

2. Joe's Crab Shack on Mt Zion Rd.

You'll hear lots of talk about the endless possibilities, but few are the palms that can take snow or freezing rain. It snowed 4 or 5 times last winter (a record); 1/2 the palmettos outside the perimeter were killed. Siting didn't help nor did years in the ground. Med Fans are also marginal, but they're easy to wrap with a blanket.

Washies-all dead; Mules-need full time protection.

Savannah is 8 to 10 F degrees warmer than ATL; not a good comparison.

Edited September 21, 2010 by alex_7b

[palmsOrl]

I visited Atlanta a number of times in late 06 and early 07. I was really surprised at the time by the number of palms that were growing around the city. The botanical garden there had all the common hardy species including Chamaedorea microspadix and radicalis. Also, this particular restaurant I passed (don't recall the name) was completely surrounded by palm landscaping, including many tall trunking Sabals, and a ton of Trachys, as well as a few others. I even saw a few overpasses downtown that were actually landscaped with trunking Washingtonias, usually city sponsored plantings do not zone push. By January (a couple nights of 19-20 F) they were fairly toasted, but not too badly. I'll bet these could survive for up to 20-30 years at a time in sheltered pockets of the immediate downtown area. Anywere outside of the urban heat island though (especially north) undoubtedly has alot fewer options as far as palms.

-Michael

[Erik]

Jason,

congratulations on the baby! My youngest is 11 now so I remember the joys more than the diapers at my age.

I also had to deal with a move once. Portland, Oregon, to Tulsa, Oklahoma. Bigger change than what you have!

Atlanta is not too different from Tulsa. We are hotter in Summer and colder in winter than you, and of course much windier.

I know you'll be too busy for much protection with the baby. So, I suggest going conservative with in ground palms and take more risks with smaller palms in pots you can keep indoors. And if possible do some. My basic protection is to pack dry hay around palms and put a large bucket/small plastic trash over top for strong winds or rain/ice/snow events. When it does get into the single digits (o F) I set a gallon jug of hot tap water under the bucket. This lets Butia and Chamaerops survive here. Trachycarpus just get trunk wrapping and the bucket held up by stakes to keep some water out of the crown. However, even this might be too much this coming winter, so maybe just potted palms for now? --Erik

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

I agree with Alex that Savannah and Atlanta are different worlds when it comes to growing palms. Still, palms around Atlanta get noticed whereas in Savannah, they are more likely overlooked. Thus a healthy Windmill can be just as satisfying as a big ole Sabal palmetto. And when the place is getting whacked by an ice storm or a snow fall, the really tough palms just take on a winter cast the way a pine tree would...or maybe better since they don't shed limbs everywhere. I never tired of seeing snow on palms because in my mind it was an amazing juxtaposition. Now that doesn't mean I didn't get tired of the cold! In Atlanta, the winter proof species are Needle Palms, some Trachycarpus (maybe), and Sabal minor. Everything else is subject to death in a really cold Atlanta winter. I believe the record low at the airport is -8F or some rediculous number so that illustrates why there are only a few "winter proof" species. The good news is that -8 in Atlanta is as common as 7F in Jacksonville so that'll illustrate how infrequent that kind of cold really is. If you can round up a ButiaXJubaea hybrid, i'd give it a decent chance though I don't think it'll take subzero cold...at least not for long. The Jubaea in Rock Hill, SC (suburban Charlotte) has taken two lows around 5F without total defoliation. I'd really be looking for one of them! Sabal birmingham is also a real trooper enduring lows around 5 without complaining. I doubt it'd take -8 though, unless it warmed like a Martian morning.

I hope the Jax rent covers the mortgage and leaves a bit of palm money left over. By the way, Jax is supposed to be the beneficiary of a bunch of new jobs because of business expansion @ the port. It might allow you to sell the house sooner than you thought!

The SE Palm society is really much more fun than the Jax group! (I hope no one is offended!....but it's true). If you can do it, make the trip to Savannah. You'll be amazed by the attendance and how much fun they are. I hope attend because it's about the only SEPS meeting I can make regularly.

Time to turn in now as I'm way to old to be awake @ 11:30!

[AggiePalms]

Oh I definitely agree that Savannah and Atlanta are not in the same USDA zone...but if a palm survives here very easily, or is native, then there is a decent chance it will survive several degrees cooler in Atlanta, and deserves investigation. For instance, Rhapidophyllum and Sabal minor grow like crazy in my yard, but they are also native well inland from Atlanta. Species that are marginal here, such as Syagrus, of course won't make it in Atlanta.

In developing lists of likely hardy species, I start with species hardy one half to one zone warmer, then remove those that can't take the extra cold. In my view, it is better to push zones a little by taking a bit of a chance on slightly warmer species, rather than relying strictly on species that are absolutely proven to live in an area. You get a much greater diversity of likely hardy species. And yes, you occasionally lose one that isn't quite as hardy as you thought.

Now the problem with all this was last winter. If we assume that the intense cold is the norm due to ENSO, then we won't be able to grow much at all. If however we assume the cold was a rare aberration, then we can grow palms to enjoy between the intense cold, hoping it will not reappear until our palms are mature, or even better, in the next century.

So, get a broad list of reasonable chances for survival, and take a chance on them. Except for native species, somebody had to take a chance on each palm species.

[alex_7b]

If you're within the heat island, you should plan for one night at 12ºF every year and a handful under 20º. If you're outside, plant to see 10º if you're along US78. The Washies mentioned above are dead.

Some minors under Live Oak would be bullet-proof. A Trachycarpus mixed with M.grandiflora "Little Gem" is a sure bet.

Here's my Washie from 2007. Two nights at 12º and multiple snow did her in.

Edited September 22, 2010 by alex_7b