AHHHH

[Zeeth]

Today I collected some different palm seeds, and I was cleaning them just now and my hands are on fire! I think it was the Arenga seeds, as they didn't start to burn after cleaning them off, but whatever it is, it's unbearable! What can I do to get rid of this burning? It's like a million fire ants are biting my hands all at once!

[MattyB]

Take a benedryl, or several and crush it up and rub on your hands. Or use Hydrocortozone cream. Good thing you didn't put them in your pocket.

[waykoolplantz]

or scratch a certain area...or your eyes.

[Jeff in St Pete]

Keith, Those calcium oxalate crystals are very painful. I bet there are a lot of us who learned about them the hard way (like me).

[Zeeth]

I applied some Hydrocortozone cream, and now they aren't so bad. Man, that was painful! Next time I go cleaning seeds, I think I'll look up online if they have the calcium oxalate crystals in them or not, as I don't want a repeat of this incident!

[FRITO]

Arenga and Caryota doesnt do anything to me, ive never had a problem cleaning any seeds actually.

[Jeff Searle]

Zeeth,

So sorry to hear about your misery earlier today. I never experienced other than an itch hear or there, but it's weird that you just started this topic, because I peeled or pulled about 1000-2000 seeds off the stems of my variegated Caryota mitis palm this afternoon. And even though I wore good gloves, I still had some slight itches on my arms. And it's no laughing matter! But, I was in my glorry, as I had waited a few years to collect my first seeds of this palm. So no complaints from me......

Jeff

[Jeff Searle]

Arenga and Caryota doesnt do anything to me, ive never had a problem cleaning any seeds actually.

I find that really impossible to believe.

[Zeeth]

Frito, They smelled like alcohol when I was opening the seed casing up. Not just a little, very strongly. I think this may have something to do with it (maybe the fermenting pulp reacted with the calcium oxalate crystals or something). I've never had a problem with any of the other species that are supposed to have the calcium oxalate crystals in them, such as roystonea and carpentaria, but they didn't have the smell that the Arenga seeds did. I also had these seeds soaking in a vat of water which i used to wash my hands when peeling the messy seeds. In hindsight that probably wasn't a very good idea

Jeff, 2000 seeds! Wow, at least you didn't get too bad of a reaction. I can't imagine trying to peel 2000 seeds with hands that feel like they're on fire

[Ken Johnson]

Ptycosperma can be added to the list if you are sensitive.

[Zeeth]

Ptycosperma can be added to the list if you are sensitive.

And I was going to collect some soon too! I guess I'll have to wear gloves when peeling those, as I don't want a repeat of this. My hands don't hurt so much anymore, but they're starting to blister up now. Who knew cleaning a few palm seeds could have such dramatic side effects!

[FRITO]

Arenga and Caryota doesnt do anything to me, ive never had a problem cleaning any seeds actually.

I find that really impossible to believe.

Its not impossible. But now that you called me out I cleaned 3-400 fresh caroyta ochlandra seed, I remember a slight itch thinking: "yeah I must not be very allergic to these." I washed my hands with my soap and the itch was gone in a few minutes. Nothing extreme enough to make a post on the International Palm Society asking for a remedy.

Zeeth, yeah the water slurry mixed with fresh fruit pulp in the heat probably exacerbate the itch

[Kailua_Krish]

Arenga and Caryota doesnt do anything to me, ive never had a problem cleaning any seeds actually.

I find that really impossible to believe.

Its not impossible. But now that you called me out I cleaned 3-400 fresh caroyta ochlandra seed, I remember a slight itch thinking: "yeah I must not be very allergic to these." I washed my hands with my soap and the itch was gone in a few minutes. Nothing extreme enough to make a post on the International Palm Society asking for a remedy.

Zeeth, yeah the water slurry mixed with fresh fruit pulp in the heat probably exacerbate the itch

If I'm not mistaken the more often you do it the worse the reaction will become... I never had a recation to elephant ears until the past 5 years or so and now any brush with the fluid at all causes a bad burning sensaation. They have the Calcium oxylate inside of them too.

-Krishna

-Krishna

[MattyB]

Whatever you do, do not exacerbate when you have the itch.

[sonoranfans]

Keith,

Calcium oxalate is a very strong base, it will burn human tissue period if in a high enough concentration with good wetting and long enough contact time. I suspect you managed to prepare a pretty strong solution with good wetting and left it on your hands long enough to burn skin cells and nerve endings. From what I read, the Arenga engleri has one of th ehighest concentrations of oxalate in plants and perhaps the oxalate helps other enzymes/components to penetrate surface skin layers and do its damage. Calcium Oxalate is also a toxin if absorbed in the blood(kidney stones are calcium oxalate), but if your dermal skin layer functions properly, you dont need to worry about skin penetration to blood during short exposures. However as others have pointed out, dont touch any mucous membranes, the worst probably being the eyes. The dermal layer of skin is an amazingly effective barrier, but mucous membranes absorb many substances readily. Because calcium oxalate is such a strong base, and you have managed to burn yourself with a combination of concentration/wetting/contact time, you should avoid touching those seeds for a while(at least weeks since your skin is probably damaged and needs to regenerate). Such a strong caustic base actually eats skin and nerve endings(ouch). Next time you handle these seeds rinse them with fresh water after soaking, and prepare two buckets of strong baking soda solution, 1/2 lb per bucket at least(sodium bicarbonate). Use the first solution to rinse your hands periodically(dunk them) and the second to neutralize and peel the seeds. Once you get burned its not unlike a heat burn, you have to let it heal. But if you can get the bicarbonate on the skin before it burns, it will neutralize the calcium oxalate pH. Best of all, if you could use butyl gloves to do the job and have baking soda. Do NOT use latex gloves, the oxalate solution will penetrate them and burn you anyway by holding the oxalate against the skin.

[John Case]

Zeeth,

So sorry to hear about your misery earlier today. I never experienced other than an itch hear or there, but it's weird that you just started this topic, because I peeled or pulled about 1000-2000 seeds off the stems of my variegated Caryota mitis palm this afternoon. And even though I wore good gloves, I still had some slight itches on my arms. And it's no laughing matter! But, I was in my glorry, as I had waited a few years to collect my first seeds of this palm. So no complaints from me......

Jeff

Jeff,

Varigated Caryota? Do you think it will carry through the seeds? If so you could be a rich man someday....

[Zeeth]

Keith,

Calcium oxalate is a very strong base, it will burn human tissue period if in a high enough concentration with good wetting and long enough contact time. I suspect you managed to prepare a pretty strong solution with good wetting and left it on your hands long enough to burn skin cells and nerve endings. From what I read, the Arenga engleri has one of th ehighest concentrations of oxalate in plants and perhaps the oxalate helps other enzymes/components to penetrate surface skin layers and do its damage. Calcium Oxalate is also a toxin if absorbed in the blood(kidney stones are calcium oxalate), but if your dermal skin layer functions properly, you dont need to worry about skin penetration to blood during short exposures. However as others have pointed out, dont touch any mucous membranes, the worst probably being the eyes. The dermal layer of skin is an amazingly effective barrier, but mucous membranes absorb many substances readily. Because calcium oxalate is such a strong base, and you have managed to burn yourself with a combination of concentration/wetting/contact time, you should avoid touching those seeds for a while(at least weeks since your skin is probably damaged and needs to regenerate). Such a strong caustic base actually eats skin and nerve endings(ouch). Next time you handle these seeds rinse them with fresh water after soaking, and prepare two buckets of strong baking soda solution, 1/2 lb per bucket at least(sodium bicarbonate). Use the first solution to rinse your hands periodically(dunk them) and the second to neutralize and peel the seeds. Once you get burned its not unlike a heat burn, you have to let it heal. But if you can get the bicarbonate on the skin before it burns, it will neutralize the calcium oxalate pH. Best of all, if you could use butyl gloves to do the job and have baking soda. Do NOT use latex gloves, the oxalate solution will penetrate them and burn you anyway by holding the oxalate against the skin.

Thanks for the thorough info Tom, very informative

[Jeff Searle]

Zeeth,

So sorry to hear about your misery earlier today. I never experienced other than an itch hear or there, but it's weird that you just started this topic, because I peeled or pulled about 1000-2000 seeds off the stems of my variegated Caryota mitis palm this afternoon. And even though I wore good gloves, I still had some slight itches on my arms. And it's no laughing matter! But, I was in my glorry, as I had waited a few years to collect my first seeds of this palm. So no complaints from me......

Jeff

Jeff,

Varigated Caryota? Do you think it will carry through the seeds? If so you could be a rich man someday....

[JungleGina]

Take a benedryl, or several and crush it up and rub on your hands. Or use Hydrocortozone cream. Good thing you didn't put them in your pocket.

LOL my boyfriend put some in his pocket once and learned the hard way about stealing seeds. You'd think he would've learned his lesson, but no...just did it again the other day. Thank you, Sonoranfans, for posting what to do so next time I can help him instead of just laughing at him. I definitely think some people must be more susceptible to it than others. Maybe someone should start compiling a list of plants that contain the oxalate that we can refer to BEFORE we jump in??

[sonoranfans]

There may be an explanation for sensitivities in the amount of skin oils people have in the outer skin. The outer skin is composed of keratinocytes(envision bricks) and fatty acids(envision mortar). The fatty acids repel water, and the keratinocytes repel oily substances as they are composed of polar protein molecules. A relatively high fatty acid content will mean that the oxalate in water solution will have more difficulty penetrating the skin to do the damage, and thus take longer exposures to reach the nerves. By the way, make sure you use sodium bicarbonate(NaHCO3)and not sodium carbonate(Na2CO3), as its the extra hydrogen that buffers the strong base in calcium oxalate. And get it on the skin RIGHT AWAY before a chemical burn can happen.

[yachtingone]

I an glad you posted this Zeeth!

Randy

[hanapalms]

Keith,

Sorry to hear of your suffering. It was good of you to post your experience; it is a good reminder to the rest of us who are likely to come in contact with seeds or plant parts which carry Calcium oxalate.

I have heard of many incidents but have been fortunate not to have had the experience myself. I am growing some Caryota, so I should be careful, also one species of Arenga so far. I have cleaned Ptychosperma seeds several times without any precaution and washed up quickly without incident; in fact I cleaned some today. Hope not to let my guard down.

[JungleGina]

Hey whaddayaknow, I found the list of palms with irritating seeds in the back of my Betrock book. That list is as follows:

Arenga pinnata, Carpentaria acuminata, Caryota mitis, Caryota rumphiana, Caryota urens, Chamaedorea cataractum, Ch. costaricana, Ch. elegans, Ch. erumpens, Ch. metallica, Ch. microspadix, Ch. radicalis, Ch. seifrizii, Ch. tepejilote, Gaussia maya, Ptychosperma spp. (some), Roystonea elata, Roystonea regia.

I would imagine there are more but those are the specific ones that were listed in this reference.

Sonoranfans: Thanks again for your oily skin explanation...I won't tell him to man-up anymore. I definitely have more oil as I apply coconut oil liberally to keep my skin soft. (It soaks in and doesn't leave a slick...ancient Polynesian secret for beautiful skin.)

[bayside mike]

Wow Sonoranfrans I was just going to say the same thing.

[Moose]

Zeeth - add Gaussia sp. to the list to watch for when collecting or cleaning. Most ardent palm enthusiasts experience the oaxilate crystal ouch ONCE!

[sonoranfans]

Hey whaddayaknow, I found the list of palms with irritating seeds in the back of my Betrock book. That list is as follows:

Arenga pinnata, Carpentaria acuminata, Caryota mitis, Caryota rumphiana, Caryota urens, Chamaedorea cataractum, Ch. costaricana, Ch. elegans, Ch. erumpens, Ch. metallica, Ch. microspadix, Ch. radicalis, Ch. seifrizii, Ch. tepejilote, Gaussia maya, Ptychosperma spp. (some), Roystonea elata, Roystonea regia.

I would imagine there are more but those are the specific ones that were listed in this reference.

Sonoranfans: Thanks again for your oily skin explanation...I won't tell him to man-up anymore. I definitely have more oil as I apply coconut oil liberally to keep my skin soft. (It soaks in and doesn't leave a slick...ancient Polynesian secret for beautiful skin.)

Hey Gina great idea, people might be better off putting some oil on the skin(wrists, hands) before handling the seeds. In this case a slick might be better... LOL! It doesnt have to be coconut oil, canola oil would probably work as well or better.

[tjwalters]

Hey whaddayaknow, I found the list of palms with irritating seeds in the back of my Betrock book. That list is as follows:

Arenga pinnata, Carpentaria acuminata, Caryota mitis, Caryota rumphiana, Caryota urens, Chamaedorea cataractum, Ch. costaricana, Ch. elegans, Ch. erumpens, Ch. metallica, Ch. microspadix, Ch. radicalis, Ch. seifrizii, Ch. tepejilote, Gaussia maya, Ptychosperma spp. (some), Roystonea elata, Roystonea regia.

I would imagine there are more but those are the specific ones that were listed in this reference.

Sonoranfans: Thanks again for your oily skin explanation...I won't tell him to man-up anymore. I definitely have more oil as I apply coconut oil liberally to keep my skin soft. (It soaks in and doesn't leave a slick...ancient Polynesian secret for beautiful skin.)

Hmmm... I've cleaned Caryota mitis, Chamaedorea cataractarum, C. metallica, C. radicalis, C. tepejilote and Ptychosperma spp. and never noticed anything.

[JungleGina]

Hey whaddayaknow, I found the list of palms with irritating seeds in the back of my Betrock book. That list is as follows:

Arenga pinnata, Carpentaria acuminata, Caryota mitis, Caryota rumphiana, Caryota urens, Chamaedorea cataractum, Ch. costaricana, Ch. elegans, Ch. erumpens, Ch. metallica, Ch. microspadix, Ch. radicalis, Ch. seifrizii, Ch. tepejilote, Gaussia maya, Ptychosperma spp. (some), Roystonea elata, Roystonea regia.

I would imagine there are more but those are the specific ones that were listed in this reference.

Sonoranfans: Thanks again for your oily skin explanation...I won't tell him to man-up anymore. I definitely have more oil as I apply coconut oil liberally to keep my skin soft. (It soaks in and doesn't leave a slick...ancient Polynesian secret for beautiful skin.)

Hmmm... I've cleaned Caryota mitis, Chamaedorea cataractarum, C. metallica, C. radicalis, C. tepejilote and Ptychosperma spp. and never noticed anything.

You must be a greaser then too!