Spread of Palm Roots

[Kumar]

The spread of palm roots is a topic on which I would like to hear experiences from the many, many veteran palm growers I meet here. the reason I ask is because I have seen for many years a proliferation of royal roots all over my 55 foot by 25 foot lawn. With the heavy rain washing away some loose soil, even more roots are revealed, as far away as 30-35 feet from the royal. Is this normal ? can this be an explanation for why no grass grows in the centre. will this be a problem for the other more recent palms that i have planted into the soil in the vicinity?

I read this interesting topic of the past, http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=751

- where Bo and others advise a 10-20 foot distance but my roots are even further beyond and show no sign of reducing. I was under the impression that palms being monocots have a very limited root spread.

admittedly I cannot photograph this very well, but just for illustration i enclose one photo that shows a few roots in the middle of nowhere - at a distance of more than 25 feet from the royals. The royal i speak of is a prolific root-spreader (also photographed)

[Tyrone]

All palms spread roots. They have no tap root. Palms are basically surface feeders. There root systems are fibrous and not woody like dicots. That also means they have no growth rings in the stem or roots which also means they have no secondary thickening of roots like dicots. A Roystonea is a big palm with high nutrient and water demands and also needs a firm grip on the ground to not fall over. It will spread roots out for a fair distance for all of those reasons. This is not normally a problem unless you confine it's roots by a planter box or something. In this case the root mass will get too big and smash the confinement apart if it can. In a lawn situation the roots will spread and the lawn and the Royals will compete for water and nutrients. What you are observing is quite normal. In a crowded palm garden or rainforest it would be a big tangle of palm roots running in all directions, all competing for what they want. Not really an issue in my opinion.

Best regards

Tyrone

[bgl]

Kumar,

As I have mentioned before, in my experience there seems to be about a half dozen palm genera with more agresssive root systems, and Roystoneas is defintely in that group. When I said 10-20 ft, that's how far out asphalt is damaged and buckled here at our place. If the roots simply go through soil, as would be the case in a lawn, I'm sure they can extend a good distance beyond 20 ft. They will suck up moisture making it difficult for other plants to thrive close by. I should mention that we have a number of Roystoneas in grassy areas here and I have not had a problem with the grass around them. Rainfall could have something to do with it.

Bo-Göran

[Kumar]

Kumar,

As I have mentioned before, in my experience there seems to be about a half dozen palm genera with more agresssive root systems, and Roystoneas is defintely in that group. When I said 10-20 ft, that's how far out asphalt is damaged and buckled here at our place. If the roots simply go through soil, as would be the case in a lawn, I'm sure they can extend a good distance beyond 20 ft. They will suck up moisture making it difficult for other plants to thrive close by. I should mention that we have a number of Roystoneas in grassy areas here and I have not had a problem with the grass around them. Rainfall could have something to do with it.

Bo-Göran

dear Bo, could you list down these half a dozen genera that yoiu have seen exhibiting aggressive root growth. You see, i have in the last six months planted a D.decaryi and a bismarck about 8 feet away from where my house begins and after reading your reply that palm roots damage asphalt, i am uncomfortable. Already in the past, my mango roots have demolished (and i mean thoroughly demolished) a portion of my boundary wall, twice and i cannot afford a repeat.

[Tyrone]

Kumar, mangos are different to palms. They are dicots. They put a small root into a crack in a wall then thicken it and thicken it until things break. Palms can't do that. I think your palms 8 ft from your house is OK. Both are deep rooted species too. They go looking for deep ground water.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Ken Johnson]

All palms have agressive roots. Some are better in a particular garden when in competition with other plants. Big palms have many more roots than small ones. The number of roots increases by a power of 2 for every increase in size of the base of the trunk. Some roots are softer than others. Some are leathery, some papery, Phoenix are tough, Hyophorbe are not. I have followed a root from the trunk of a 9' (3m) Coccothrinax argentia out 18' (6m) from the trunk! A royal with 20' of trunk may have roots 50' long easily. Palms can accumulate enough roots under a structure to lift it but generaly they will not lift a concreat footer of a house. They can lift a sidewalk, (Bo's) asphalt for sure. I have seen a Bizmarkia bust an eigth foot above ground concreat planter no problem.

[bgl]

Kumar,

Ken (post above) has a lot more experience with this than I do, but the palms that have caused our asphalt driveways to buckle are:

Cocos

Clinostigma

Roystone

Bismarckia

Pigafetta

I'm sure there are others.

Bo-Göran

[freakypalmguy]

I hope I don't have issues with my asphalt driveway in the future. I'm hoping that with my very low yearly rainfall, and use of drip irrigation, that most of the roots on the palms lining my driveway (Syagrus, Bismarkia, and Beccariophoenix)will all grow downward and not spread too much.

Edited July 13, 2010 by freakypalmguy

[bgl]

How close are they to the driveway?

[freakypalmguy]

2' to the center of the palms.

[bgl]

Wow! If it's asphalt I'm afraid you will have problems. And the Beccariophoenix is that close? I don't know how it'll grow there, but if it gets up to proper size those fronds will be crossing the entire driveway. At eye level!!

[freakypalmguy]

Wow! If it's asphalt I'm afraid you will have problems. And the Beccariophoenix is that close? I don't know how it'll grow there, but if it gets up to proper size those fronds will be crossing the entire driveway. At eye level!!

I'm thinking it's going to get interesting on my driveway in the future I know I can keep the Bismarkia trimmed upright until they are overhead, I've seen it done and I've kept the Phoenix at my entrance that way, but the Beccario are the unknown. Not sure how they will look being kept trimmed up. I guess I'll have to wait and see what happens. Thank you Bo.

[Ken Johnson]

I'll tell you this Freaky, if the palm frond from a Bismarkia can reach the driveway then the roots will go twice that far. In the long run the asphalt will be comprimised.

[freakypalmguy]

I'll tell you this Freaky, if the palm frond from a Bismarkia can reach the driveway then the roots will go twice that far. In the long run the asphalt will be comprimised.

Well, I never did like that asphalt anyways. Actually it's the truth, I plan on replacing it with something nicer someday when I'm rich

Thanks Ken, I had no Idea Bismarkia roots were that gnarly, or any palm species for that matter. I'm going to put these palms on a less frequent, deep soak, watering schedule and move all the drip heads to the outside of the hill in hopes of "steering" them away the best I can. I don't get the kind of rain you all (and Bo) get, none during the growing season, May through October, and very little in the winter, so I'm hoping that I won't get the spread you get. We'll see.

[Kumar]

Thanks for the information. I will keep a close watch on aggresive root development. Fortunately I have a 'wall' three bricks high half way to the house (the lawn boundary) which should provide an early warning.

[Bill Schmidt]

Thanks for the information. I will keep a close watch on aggresive root development. Fortunately I have a 'wall' three bricks high half way to the house (the lawn boundary) which should provide an early warning.

Hi Kumar and all,

How about septic lines? I have a spot that I'm contemplating putting a Bismarkia in that would be about 8' from a 3" or 4" PVC line. Also cement pools, anyone have palm problems?

Best regards from Puerto Rico,

Bill

[MattyB]

Matt, your driveway is actually a great mulch. In the wet season the ground underneath will be saturated and that thick covering of asphalt will hold that moisture in for many months. So, no matter the climate, the roots are going to go under it. In fact, I'd say they prefer it under there, all wet and warm. But don't fret. It's not like you've planted a bunch of Ficus. You're gonna have to repave that surface in the future anyways, so have them hot-roll another 4" on top and level it out.

[DoomsDave]

Add teh Queen Palm, Syagrus romanzoffianum to the list of palms with gnarly roots. (I wonder if that's a botanical term? "Leaves: pinnate and porrect. Roots: totally gnarly"

I had a group together that sucked all the life out of the soil so even the weeds wouldn't grow. Which is sometimes what you want. But I didn't, so I took them out. Now everything grows much better.

[Tyrone]

Thanks for the information. I will keep a close watch on aggresive root development. Fortunately I have a 'wall' three bricks high half way to the house (the lawn boundary) which should provide an early warning.

Hi Kumar and all,

How about septic lines? I have a spot that I'm contemplating putting a Bismarkia in that would be about 8' from a 3" or 4" PVC line. Also cement pools, anyone have palm problems?

Best regards from Puerto Rico,

Bill

If you confine palm roots so they can't go anywhere and they are a big species, expect problems because genetically they must put a certain amount of roots out to remain stable in the ground. They will definitely start cracking things then. But if the roots are unconfined they can then go where they want, and this will cause little if any problems. I doubt you'll have problems with a PVC pipe. How is a palm root going to get in there, unless you've already cracked the pipe to let it in? Same thing with cement pools. Confine the roots around a cement pool and expect problems, but if the roots can roam freely around a pool nothing can go wrong, provided you haven't planted a Bismarck within a metre or so of the pool. In that case the trunk will widen, and the roots will be in high concentration around it's base and this increased root mass at the base may cause some issues. But wandering adventitous roots are not an issue to any structure. The same can not be said for dicot trees which find cracks in structures with there tiny root hairs and these root hairs widen into bigger roots and then start cracking structures apart. Palms can not do that sort of thing, as they don't widen their roots. Once they push out a root from the base it stays at that diameter for the life of the root.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Bill Schmidt]

Thanks Tyrone.

Thanks for the information. I will keep a close watch on aggresive root development. Fortunately I have a 'wall' three bricks high half way to the house (the lawn boundary) which should provide an early warning.

Hi Kumar and all,

How about septic lines? I have a spot that I'm contemplating putting a Bismarkia in that would be about 8' from a 3" or 4" PVC line. Also cement pools, anyone have palm problems?

Best regards from Puerto Rico,

Bill

If you confine palm roots so they can't go anywhere and they are a big species, expect problems because genetically they must put a certain amount of roots out to remain stable in the ground. They will definitely start cracking things then. But if the roots are unconfined they can then go where they want, and this will cause little if any problems. I doubt you'll have problems with a PVC pipe. How is a palm root going to get in there, unless you've already cracked the pipe to let it in? Same thing with cement pools. Confine the roots around a cement pool and expect problems, but if the roots can roam freely around a pool nothing can go wrong, provided you haven't planted a Bismarck within a metre or so of the pool. In that case the trunk will widen, and the roots will be in high concentration around it's base and this increased root mass at the base may cause some issues. But wandering adventitous roots are not an issue to any structure. The same can not be said for dicot trees which find cracks in structures with there tiny root hairs and these root hairs widen into bigger roots and then start cracking structures apart. Palms can not do that sort of thing, as they don't widen their roots. Once they push out a root from the base it stays at that diameter for the life of the root.

Best regards

Tyrone

[coconuts_dont_growhere_but]

On 7/11/2010 at 10:19 PM, bgl said:

Kumar,

 

As I have mentioned before, in my experience there seems to be about a half dozen palm genera with more agresssive root systems, and Roystoneas is defintely in that group. When I said 10-20 ft, that's how far out asphalt is damaged and buckled here at our place. If the roots simply go through soil, as would be the case in a lawn, I'm sure they can extend a good distance beyond 20 ft. They will suck up moisture making it difficult for other plants to thrive close by. I should mention that we have a number of Roystoneas in grassy areas here and I have not had a problem with the grass around them. Rainfall could have something to do with it.

 

Bo-Göran

Do Cocos, Phoenixes, Sagyrus, and Washintona fall in the aggressive root or non aggressive root category?