Where were the First Coconuts in Florida

[bubba]

Riddle me this and this time I have the answer!

[DoomsDave]

PALM BEACH?

I recall reading about a ship that sank off the coast, nuts afloat, etc.

SO, what is it?

[rozpalm]

I believe you are correct Dave, hence the name of Bubba's town - Palm Beach. Apparently when the ship sank, the coconuts that washed up on the beach sprouted en masse which I guess inspired the name of the town.

[epicure3]

I believe you are correct Dave, hence the name of Bubba's town - Palm Beach. Apparently when the ship sank, the coconuts that washed up on the beach sprouted en masse which I guess inspired the name of the town.

Certainly wouldn't be Palm Springs.

[sarasota alex]

I always thought that the pan-tropical distribution of Cocos happened before human involvement and included South Florida and the Keys.

[floridagrower]

By definition, anything Pre-Columbian is considered native to Florida. Coconuts have been dated to at least this time in extreme South Florida. Many state offices here in the capital still use the original state seal with the Coconut Palm.

[Moose]

I thought Swallows distributed Cocoanuts?

[Rafael]

And where did the seeds came from?

[Eric in Orlando]

I thought I have read that there were coconuts in the Keys already growing when the first Europeans arrived

[bubba]

The first account of Coconuts in Florida was Spanish surveyor Vignoles who found an abandoned grove of Coconuts four miles North of Jupiter Inlet and it was estimated they were established in 1807.Additional,Coconuts were found at the following locations and times:

Boca Grande/Captiva-1813

Miami-1815

Key West-1824

Indian Key-1840

Lake Worth- 1860

[sarasota alex]

Were they naturally established?

I was thinking that if viable coconuts wash ashore as far north as Norway, why wouldn't they wash ashore in Florida, germinate and establish themselves naturally.

[DoomsDave]

That makes sense.

I recall that a ship loaded with coconuts sank off Palm Beach in the late 1800s, and the nuts floated ashore and germinated in the hundreds or thousands, some of which supposedly survived until LY in the 1970s.

But it certainly makes sense that a nut or two would find its way to Florida much sooner.

Interesting . . . .

[Davidl]

Dave you are right about there were a few nuts before that that washed ashore. They still arrive even to this day lol

[palmcurry]

The Florida keys are basically in the Caribbean or just North of it. In The Caribbean you have Jamaica where there is the variation of Cocos nucifera 'Jamaican tall' If Coconuts are floating around and establishing themselves in the Caribbean, I would think they established themselves in the Florida Keys long ago.

[tank]

Originally ended up on the Pacific coast of Central America, either by current or Kon-tiki, then distributed throughout the Caribbean and the Americas. One theory anyway.

[palmcurry]

Here is a coconut distribution range image I found at findtarget.com (good article on Cocos nucifera too)

I don't think its 100% accurate especially if there is a report of coconuts washing ashore in Norway(wow) but you can see Florida is in clear range in this model.

[bayside mike]

Here is a coconut distribution range image I found at findtarget.com (good article on Cocos nucifera too)

I don't think its 100% accurate especially if there is a report of coconuts washing ashore in Norway(wow) but you can see Florida is in clear range in this model.

cool map though

[tank]

Distribution probably means "distributed and growing", at least from historical records.

[displaced_floridian]

I think the West coast of Mexico has coconuts growing farther north than the map shows. They are prolific in the southern part of Baja and on the coast up to at least 25N.

[philinsydney]

I don't believe they would grow that far north in China.

Also, they grow further south than Brisbane in Australia.

[Ken Johnson]

Any reports from the Spanish?

It sure would be cool to know what was here 80 thousand years ago when the population of humans on Earth was much larger than say 30 thousand years ago. There is some evidence that humans were in North America at the time.

Sooner or later we will be able to use DNA to find out the history of all life on Earth.

[Palmateer]

The coconut is an amazingly useful plant.

One measure of where coconuts existed naturally is how the products are traditionally used by the native peoples.

The explorers to the New World found no such evidence of coconut product use by the natives they encountered.

[koolthing78]

I don't believe they would grow that far north in China.

Also, they grow further south than Brisbane in Australia.

I agree--that looks almost up to Shanghai, and they get pretty cold in winter (though from google earth I've seen they do have a few palms, but mostly trachys). Also, the east coast of South Africa--especially the further north you go--has plenty of coconuts (again, based on my travels via google earth). But an interesting map.

[Erik]

Very interesting.

I see a great molecular phylogeography PhD dissertation project here for someone with a grant that pays for a lot of travel. --Erik

[paulgila]

The coconut is an amazingly useful plant.

dont forget "delicious."

[sur4z]

That makes sense.

I recall that a ship loaded with coconuts sank off Palm Beach in the late 1800s, and the nuts floated ashore and germinated in the hundreds or thousands, some of which supposedly survived until LY in the 1970s.

But it certainly makes sense that a nut or two would find its way to Florida much sooner.

Interesting . . .

Dave...the name of the ship was the Providencia.

[bubba]

I got this information from a rather incredible article in the IPS Principes. Kathryn pointed out that the issues had been downloaded all the way back to 1977. Take a look at the July 1978 issue, Vol.22 page 83-87 and the article titled "The Coconut in Florida". Although there is no way to know for certain exactly when and where Coconuts were first grown in Florida, this article delineates the first historical accounts that were verified.

LY is an interesting topic now but it's devastation will never be forgotten. It was truly horrible.That stated, Dave, you have seen with your own eyes Jamaican Talls in excess of 60 feet that are 80 years old and have survived LY because of innoculation.I am certain these are natural descendants of the 20,000 Coconuts spilled by the Providencia on Jan.9,1879.

The Coconuts described in this article predate the Providencia by over 70 years.The Coconuts, according to the article, did not arrive into the West Indies until much latter than I expected. Check out this article and this new IPS resource.

[Tyrone]

I don't believe they would grow that far north in China.

Also, they grow further south than Brisbane in Australia.

I agree that they probably wouldn't grow that far north in China. That place gets really cold in winter, and cold blasts have destroyed coconuts in Taiwan, well south of the line drawn.

Is this map talking about naturally occurring coconuts, or cultivated? If naturally occurring, were coconuts as far south as Brisbane before white settlement?

Cool map though. The coconut sure gets around a bit.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Tyrone]

The coconut is an amazingly useful plant.

One measure of where coconuts existed naturally is how the products are traditionally used by the native peoples.

The explorers to the New World found no such evidence of coconut product use by the natives they encountered.

Whereas in northern QLD the aboriginals have traditional uses for coconuts. It's part of their culture. This in my mind proves that coconuts were not an introduced species after white settlement as some in North Queensland were trying to say. Councils were actually talking of felling all the beach growing coconuts in areas like Cairns and the Daintree because someone thought they were an introduced "weed". All I can say is, I wish I lived in an area where weeds were coconut palms. Here it's just crab grass, African Love grass and introduced South african daisies!!! Not that I've got anything against Africa though. Africa's cool.

Best regards

Tyrone

[displaced_floridian]

I noted that on the distribution map the inclusion line rises up in the W. Atlantic to take in Bermuda. It looks like that is about as far north as it goes anywhere. I know Bermuda has lots of coconut trees, but do they produce mature fruit? The winters are quite cool, with temps usually in the 50s and 60s, rarely reaching 70 and occasionally in the upper 40s.

If they can grow from seed outdoors with no interventions, that might be the farthest north

place where they grow 'naturally'.

[Cristóbal]

I think the West coast of Mexico has coconuts growing farther north than the map shows. They are prolific in the southern part of Baja and on the coast up to at least 25N.

cocos nucifera grow in san felipe baja california and puerto peñasco sonora 31 N in mar de cortez. And on west coast of baja california in bahía tortugas 28 N.

[amazondk]

My area is off the map. And, there sure are a lot of coconuts growing here. But, they probably were not here in 1500 when the Portuguese came to Brazil.

dk

[Brian Bruning]

IMHO: Coconuts were introduced to the western hemisphere by Polynesians. They settled Rapa Nui and grew them there but they just barely existed but did fruit. I'm sure groups of Polynesians hit the mainland at various points but found it already populated by people that didn't want new comers. But they did trade. The Polynesians got sweet potatoes from South or Central America which got from there to New Zealand before Cptn. Cook. I believe the natives of Rapa Nui took Jubea seeds back where they did much better than the coconut. I can't see a seed that big that doesn't float getting there naturally. They likely left behind coconuts at various places on the upper west coast of South America and Panama. Coconuts are believed there by they time Balboa "discovered" the Pacific. Some chickens in that area seem to have more asian rather than european genes. The indeginious "Indians" a misnomer, traded wide and far. Huge canoes from Mexico whet to Cuba and the southern US. Copper from Michigan's upper peninsula made it to the Gulf of Mexico and cowerie shells made the reverse trip. Cultigens such as corn, beans, squash and tobacco were gradually introduced further and further north. When the Spaniards introduced peaches to Florida the Indians spead them out in a generation. There were peach orchards at every village all over the south as far as they tree would grow and fruit. Read "Guns, Germs and Steel." Trading new food items was a big deal. People got very bored eating the same old gruel and if a new and delicious stomache filling food came along they went for it big time. Increased production was necessary too as most of these people lived on the edge of starvation half of the time. If the tribe grew it became prosperous and numerous from increased reproduction and recruitment of new tribe members from less prosperous or defeated tribes they could defend its territory. Those that still hunted and gathered traded with those that farmed. Once sheep were introduced it became wool that had value too esp. where it gets cold, that is at elevations and in the temperate climates. Our southwestern tribes took to churro and merino sheep like a fish to water. Food and warm clothing in one animal. Depictions of beaver trade era "First Nations" people in Canada describe them as wearing a strange mix of native and european clothing. I'm sure woollen leggins/pants and the like came in handy when it was time to hunt and -30C/F. Horses too, a few got loose in New Mexico and Texas and in a couple of generations there were a million and tribes took to riding to find the bison rather than wait for them to appear. Horses were portable wealth and beat dragging your stuff on a travois pulled by a dog. But I digress.

[Brian Bruning]

And further coconuts are so useful that I believe that the indigenous people passed them along and distributed them here and there in the Carribean.

[Brian Bruning]

I just checked on this. There is mention by a Spaniard in 1534 of coconuts in northern South America. This article is interesting. I can do without the belief in Atlantis though. But read the commentary to it in red after it. If coconuts were on the west coast of Panama in 1513 why would the native people not take some to the Atlantic side too? It just seems to follow. I also have heard of trans Atlantic trade prior to 4000BC. Peanuts got to Africa that way. There is talk that the mummies of Egypt shows traces of tobacco and cocaine. They retested thinking they were contaminated by the staff but still they found it in the bodies again. They were not contaminated by modern people, these pharoahs did get substances from the Americas.

http://frontiers-of-anthropology.blogspot.com/2012/01/more-on-new-world-coconuuts.html

[Zeeth]

"A recent re-evaluation of early Spanish records has concluded that coconuts were pre-Spanish on the Pacific coasts of Costa Rica, Panama and northern Colombia. The writers concluded that coconuts had reached America naturally by floating or they may have been carried by ancient voyagers."

http://cookislands.bishopmuseum.org/showarticle.asp?id=15

http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/06/2011/coconut-genetics-preserve-a-record-of-prehistoric-trade-routes

[Stevetoad]

I thought Swallows distributed Cocoanuts?

an african swallow maybe but not a european swallow. they could grip it by the husk...

[awkonradi]

This article may contain some info pertinent to this thread.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0021143

[Funkthulhu]

I thought Swallows distributed Cocoanuts?

an african swallow maybe but not a european swallow. they could grip it by the husk...

It's not a question of where he grips it! It's a simple question of weight ratios! A five ounce bird could not carry a one pound coconut!

[BigD]

Here is a coconut distribution range image I found at findtarget.com (good article on Cocos nucifera too)

I don't think its 100% accurate especially if there is a report of coconuts washing ashore in Norway(wow) but you can see Florida is in clear range in this model.

cool map though

I always thought that the southern tip of Texas. South Padre Island could grow Coconut palms.