Zone 10b Botanical Garden

[John in Andalucia]

I was approached recently to supply some palm seedlings to a Botanical Garden in Portugal, and was wondering if you'd all be kind enough to help me select a few species. I have plenty of palms here that will grow well in Zone 10b, but they're not exactly out of the ordinary - at least not IMO. I've offered to buy in extra seedlings to acquire species that will serve to enhance the Garden in years to come, so which are the "show-stoppers" for Zone 10b? All suggestions are warmly welcome!

[MattyB]

Great fun John!!!!! Congrats on the new business connection. Here's some 10B "top shelf" stuff that comes to mind:

Carpoxylon macrospermum

Satakentia likuiensis

Dypsis prestoniana

Clinostigma harlandii & savoryanum

Pinanga phillipensis

Keriodoxa elegans

Acanthophoenix rubrum

Dypsis ambositrae

Licuala ramsayi

Tahina spectabilis

Pseudophoenix vinifera

Wallichia disticha

Ravenea xerophylla

[Bags]

That could be quite a list of palms. Some of my top pics would be:

Dypsis Decipiens

Chambeyronia Macrocarpa and Hookerii

Burretiokentia Hapala, Kogiensis, Dumasii, Vieillardii, Grandiflora (they are all amazing)

[richnorm]

Caryota obtusa, D. onilahensis (and various others), Ceroxylon amazonicum, echinulatum etc, Pritchardia martii, minor, beccariana etc, Prestoea montana, the LHI palms, Arenga micrantha, Livistona decora, speciosa etc. Acantophoenix crinita, Attalea dubia, Oraniopsis, most of the New Caledonian palms, Rhopalostylis, Parajubaea TVT .... I could go on and on! Sounds like a fun project.

[John in Andalucia]

Whatever comes to mind for Zone 10b is all it takes, so thanks for the input already! To set the scene, here are the species requested from my current stock:

Chambeyronia macrocarpa

Clinostigma exorrhizum

Coccothrinax scoparia

Dictyosperma album

Dypsis decaryi

Dypsis oropedionis

Dypsis pinnatifrons

Kentiopsis oliviformis

Licuala triphylla

Livistona nitida

Parajubaea torallyi v. microcarpa

Pinanga glaucifolia

Pritchardia thurstonii

Roscheria melanochaetes

Sabal maritima

Apart from the Chambeyronia macrocarpa, everything else I have there is liner-size. My concern for the species marked bold, is that they will be high maintenance for a few more years. At their present size, these plants are in need of some nurturing to get the roots established.

So if the options are many, how do you narrow it down? Well, the more suggestions that match will be the first indication, since most people here are aficionados. Hopefully, with a few more solid suggestions, folks will chip in and say they favour the same species too.

Secondly, I'm sending palms in the post, and this is a botanical garden working to a budget, so VFM is very important. This is why little gems such as Licuala triphylla, Coccothrinax scoparia and Ravenea xerophylla will be an asset. If it's a big seedling, it has to be a "must-have" such as a Chambeyronia or Carpoxylon.

Robust seedling is another factor. The likes of Keriodoxa elegans epitomises the robust, exotic palm seedling, IMO, and if it's tiny, then it has to be tough. A couple of favourites that are always good sellers here are Syagrus amara and Ravenea hildebrandtii, and Cyphophoenix elegans always looks good.

The initial request has been for about 15 species and 3 of each, so there's another factor to bear in mind. Which of them will make the grade?

[MattyB]

John, I don't think you'll have any problems with Pritchardia thrustonii, in the cold frame at least. They're strong growers. Like all Pritchardias, I've found that if you bury them a little deep they'll "lock in" and form better adventitious roots, thus eliminating the wobble they so often exhibit. Also, potting them up on time helps a lot since they tend to want to form a lot of roots and failure to do this holds back their growth.

Another idea: Coccothrinax argentea is fast for a Coccothrinax, always looks good, and is a resilient seedling even when small.

[Jason Baker Portugal]

John, where is the bg? It depends on the rest of the climate (moisture etc.). Jason

[John in Andalucia]

Matt - thanks for those tips on potting up the P. thurstonii. I didn't realise Pritchardias came in that size! Do they take-off at some point, or are they really slow? A few fast Coccothrinax is a good suggestion too.

John, where is the bg? It depends on the rest of the climate (moisture etc.). Jason

Hello Jason,

The address is Parques de Sintra, Monserrate. From the Google images (http://images.google...F-8&sa=N&tab=wi) it looks as stunning as the Alhambra here in Granada. Do you know much about the location?

[MattyB]

John,

What do you mean "that size"? Are you refering to how small they are when young? I think they grow at the same rate as just about every Pritchardia, which I'd catagorize as medium, steady speed, growing in both Winter and Summer.

[John in Andalucia]

John,

What do you mean "that size"? Are you refering to how small they are when young? I think they grow at the same rate as just about every Pritchardia, which I'd catagorize as medium, steady speed, growing in both Winter and Summer.

Yes, sorry for the poor expression, I meant in general comparison to other Pritchardia, or at least the half-dozen species I know, which all produce a first leaf with a lot more profile.

[MattyB]

OK, I didn't remember at first, but I guess P. thurstonii do have a rather small strap leaf. Maybe due to the small seed size.

Another idea: Cyphophoenix alba. Small, easy to ship, trouble free to grow.

[Charles Wychgel]

Whatever comes to mind for Zone 10b is all it takes, so thanks for the input already! To set the scene, here are the species requested from my current stock:

Chambeyronia macrocarpa

Clinostigma exorrhizum

Coccothrinax scoparia

Dictyosperma album

Dypsis decaryi

Dypsis oropedionis

Dypsis pinnatifrons

Kentiopsis oliviformis

Licuala triphylla

Livistona nitida

Parajubaea torallyi v. microcarpa

Pinanga glaucifolia

Pritchardia thurstonii

Roscheria melanochaetes

Sabal maritima

My concern for the species marked bold, is that they will be high maintenance for a few more years. At their present size, these plants are in need of some nurturing to get the roots established.

So if the options are many, how do you narrow it down?

Secondly, I'm sending palms in the post, and this is a botanical garden working to a budget, so VFM is very important. This is why little gems such as Licuala triphylla, Coccothrinax scoparia and Ravenea xerophylla will be an asset. If it's a big seedling, it has to be a "must-have" such as a Chambeyronia or Carpoxylon.

The initial request has been for about 15 species and 3 of each, so there's another factor to bear in mind. Which of them will make the grade?

Nice request John, hope this project will work out well for you

I donated some agaves and a bamboo (Otatea acuminata) for their mexican garden, but have not been down yet to see the actual work that is being done.

Sintra is some three hours north of me, a hilly area with an average rainfall of 800mm, mine is 400mm temperatures will be slightly lower than me; while I have what one would call a mediterranean climate, Sintra could be classified as maritime Atlantic, slightly cooler and more humid than me or you John for that matter.

Tree ferns do very well there while they struggle with my dry summers.

I grow about 250 species in my garden and going through your list I would exclude Coccothrinax which needs very high and dry heat to grow well, Licuala triphylla seems to be quite hardy but I have not had any luck with any licuala they don't like my summers nor my soil or water which are alkaline; they will do better in Sintra , soil and water there are more on the acidic side.

Carpoxylon is a show stopper indeed I am trying it out now going through its first winter and doing very well

The absolute show stopper and must have is the Chambeyronia of course try to put at least six of them everybody loves those red leaves, all NC palms would do well I think.

Sabals are great and hardy but the one on your list needs a lot of heat in summer why not stick with smaller Sabal minor and all its forms "louisiana",Brazoria or even etonia

Roscheria is a no go, too tropical for this area

Pinanga idem

Pritchardia would do well so would Livistona and Ravenea glauca and R.hillebrandi, Ravenea is an excellent choice and great in a group planting

Dypsis is a different story you will have to grow them to some size in a pot before you can plant them out, they are very slow planted out as seedlings

From my visits to Sintra I mostly remember the Kentia and Kentiabelle, Rhopalostylis some Washingtonia, the usual CIDP, some Jubaea and maybe one or two Livistona chinensis not many "real" exotics

The NC species would be best imo you can't beat a well grown Chambeyronia

Last but not least how about trying the "impossible" palm Juania australis?

[PalmatierMeg]

John, is their 10b in the rainforest tropics meaning? Even in FL 10b is reserved for the Keys and coastal areas from Miami south. Are some of those palms be kept in a conservatory or outdoors? From your list any Sabal, Coccothrinax and Livistona should do well given lots of sun and heat. And Livistonas grow fairly fast. Kentiopsis and Dictyosperma should do okay, Dypsis decaryi in a drier spot. Do you have Dypsis pembana? I can't say enough about that palm. It is beautiful, takes full summer sun and sneered at -2C here, one of only a few pinnate palms that didn't get burned. I have a lovely D. pinnatifrons in a 7g pot but won't plant it because I've heard they don't do well in high heat. Chambeys are another good possibility and the red leaves add panache. For a "fast" Coccothrinax also try C. barbadensis. But palms like Roscheria, some Licualas and Clinostigma may require more tropical conditions than your climate provides, unless they are kept in a conservatory. I'm in 10a FL-style and haven't a prayer with Roscheria outdoors, likely the same with Clinostigma. I'm on my second try with L.triphylla - they are not the easiest Licuala to grow. I really love Pinangas but I lost at least 2-3 to cold and most of them require shade. How about Archonotophoenix or are they too ho-hum? I have much more respect for them after this winter.

[Jason Baker Portugal]

I agree with Charles. The climate is very similar to Lord Howe Island or Juan Fernandez island. It is facing the atlantic ocean and is on a mountain. There is already a forest and canapy there.

That is the moistest area near Lisbon being moist (high humidity) and cool even in summer. The maximums will not be very high and the minimums not very low. I think that the climate stats found on the net are down in the valley so they are not that accurate.

Juania would do very well there and I take it that most from LHI as well as new caledonia, ryukiu island etc. You could send them some stunning palms. There are also streams there so even the palms needing lots of water could grow there. I think that most ceroxylons would do well there too. They love growing in the forest.

I thought of living there but those huge palaces on the hill side are too costly .

Meg, archontophoenix, rhopalostylis and howea grow well there.

Have fun and let us know how it works out.

[John in Andalucia]

Thank you Meg, Charles, Jason et al. I've requested some information regarding the planting locations, e.g. glasshouse or outdoors, and if outdoors, the types of environment. This will be key, obviously. A Juania would be nice if I knew where to find one. I have some outdoor-grown Hedyscepe canterburyana, so I think those are a must. I'll update as soon as I have more information!

[Charles Wychgel]

One last note about climate zones

The US system of climate zones leans heavily on the winter minima temps and does not incorporate summer heat levels, summer or winter rain levels and marine influences and much more

Zones 10 cities in Europe such as Lisbon, Rome, Cork(Ireland), Malaga do NOT have the same conditions that makes certain palms grow... Juania grows well in Cork but does not have a chance in Malaga just like I never had success with them, Dypsis lutescens will grow in Malaga but certainly not in LIsbon.

In the USA Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Diego, Orlando(Fl) and Tampa(Fl) are also classified as zone 10 but the difference in summer heat and rainfall pattern makes palm growing in San Francisco a complete different ballgame than say San Diego

A better, more finely tuned system would be the Sunset system, their zones incorporate ALL season temperatures, rainfall, wind patterns elevation and length of growing season.

More info http://www.sunset.com/garden/climate-zones/

[PalmatierMeg]

A climate that can grow specialized palms like Juania and Hedyscepe may not easily support sun- and heat-loving palms like Sabals and Coccothrinax. If those survive at all they will probably limp along at best. You may be better off looking toward Butias, mules, Jubaea, etc. that members of EPS grow. But I suppose that BG wants more "exotic" stuff. Are they prepared to provide the conditions exotics need, not just to survive, but to grow?

[John in Andalucia]

A climate that can grow specialized palms like Juania and Hedyscepe may not easily support sun- and heat-loving palms like Sabals and Coccothrinax. If those survive at all they will probably limp along at best. You may be better off looking toward Butias, mules, Jubaea, etc. that members of EPS grow. But I suppose that BG wants more "exotic" stuff. Are they prepared to provide the conditions exotics need, not just to survive, but to grow?

Meg, I am told that there are varied micro-climates in the region, and that this will be an open air project; frost-free, lows of 5C/41F. The architect involved is wanting to take inspiration from the founder of the Botanic Garden who apparently was a zone pusher, although I think it is now understood that slow, heat loving palms will not have the desired effect, which is to create a tourist attraction. There will be no facility for keeping seedlings warm in winter, so at best a cold frame or unheated greenhouse is all that's available for the new intake.

Quote: "The priority is to restore those species with a history of cultivation at Monserrate, but we are also interested in demonstrating the unique subtropical conditions that this garden has to offer.."

There are 70 species recently planted, 135 trees in all. The list of recent plantings is as follows:

Acoelorraphe wrightii

Allagoptera arenaria

Archontophoenix alexandrae

Arenga engleri

Bismarkia nobilis

Brahea armata

Brahea brandegeei

Brahea dulcis

Brahea edulis

Butia capitata

Butia eriospatha

Caryota mitis

Caryota urens himalaya

Chamaedorea costaricana

Chamaedorea microspadix

Chamaedorea seifritzii

Chamaerops humilis cerifera

Chamaerops humilis vulcano

Chambeyronia macrocarpa

Copernicia alba

Dypsis decaryi

Dypsis lucubensis

Hedyscepe canterburiana

Howea belmoreana

Howea forsteriana

Hyophorbe verschafeltii

Jubaea chilensis

Livistona australis

Livistona chinensis

Livistona decipens

Livistona mariae

Livistona muelleri

Livistona nitida

Livistona rotundifolia

Nannorrhops ritchiana (cinzento)

Nannorrhops ritchiana (verde)

Parajubaea torallyi microcarpa

Parajubaea torallyi torallyi

Phoenix acaulis

Phoenix humilis

Phoenix reclinata

Phoenix roebelenii

Phoenix rupicola

Phoenix sylvestris

Pritchardia hillebrandii

Ravenea rivularis

Rhapidophyllum histrix

Rhapis excelsa

Rhopalostylis sapida

Roystonea regia

Sabal bermudana

Sabal causiarum

Sabal domingensis

Sabal mauritiformis

Sabal mexicana

Sabal minor

Sabal palmetto

Sabal uresana

Sabal yapa

Serenoa repens

Syagrus coronata

Syagrus oleracea

Syagrus schizophylla

Syagrus yungasensis

Thrinax parviflora

Trachycarpus "takagii"

Trachycarpus martianus

Trachycarpus wagnerianus

Trithrinax brasilensis

Trithrinax campestris

Wodyetia bifurcata

There are also an additional 7 or 8 species classed as Heritage plants, that fall within the genera listed above. A lot of "usual suspects" on this list, so allow me to think out loud with a few species, many already suggested..

Basselinia pancheri

Carpoxylon macrospermum

Ceroxylon ...??

Chambeyronia houailou (yes/no? or hookerii)

Cyphophoenix elegans

Dictyosperma album

Dypsis pembana

Euterpe edulis

Hedyscepe canterburyana (they only have one)

Kentiopsis oliviformis

Keriodoxa elegans

Licuala ramsayi

Prestoea v. montana

Pritchardia remota

Ravenea hildebrandtii

Ravenea xerophila

Satakentia likuiensis

Sounding good? Please comment..

[Walter John]

Something with spines John, go tropical looking and go scary. Bring in the Aiphanes and Acrocomias, shoot to kill, get out of my way, palm trees rule.

[Dave-Vero]

http://www.parquesdesintra.pt/en/

Climate diagram,

Palomar, Ca., near San Diego http://www.globalbio...ot/us-palom.htm

Vero Beach, Florida, Atlantic Coast http://www.globalbio...ot/us-vero-.htm

[Dave-Vero]

[Former] Ramey Air Force Base, Puerto Rico http://www.globalbio...ot/pu-ramey.htm

El Granado, Andalucia, Spain (border with southern Portugal) http://www.globalbio...ot/es-el-gr.htm

Granada, Spain http://www.globalbio...ot/es-cadia.htm

La Habana, Cuba http://www.globalbio...ot/cu-jose-.htm

[John in Andalucia]

Thanks for those climate comparisons Dave, and for posting the link to Parques de Sintra, which might inspire a few holidays! It looks amazing.

Wal, I hear you! Aiphanes minima and Acrocomia aculeata perhaps? Matt mentioned Acanthophoenix rubra, which would be nice too if I can find them.

Okay, Floribunda have Aiphanes minima (syn. A. erosa) so that's encouraging.

[Ryland]

What a fabulous collection for your garden! I only wish I had a quarter of that many palm trees!

[Rafael]

Bump, wondering if anybody has pics or other info about this garden and John's palms...

I am planning to visit this garden, soon.

[Rafael]

I think these are your babys John!