Sabal miamiensis vs.

[palmmermaid]

In a recent document I read where there are some authorities who believe that S. miamiensis is either extinct in the wild or was never a different species from S. etonia. Do any of you folks in Miami-Dade know if there is a specimen of S. miamiensis anywhere in the county?

[Ken Johnson]

Kitty, I have some questions too. Scott Zona is the one who thought he found a different species with miamiansis but has since gone back on that conclusion. There are some dwarf looking palmetto all over Miami-Dade county that do not look like thier relatives just a few miles away in the Everglades. In fact I do not think there are any native palmettto on the rock ridge that are realy tall. They have a tough time in the pine rocklands due to lack of soil and competition and must have evolved to be a shorter (and sometimes stouter) form. They tend to bloom way before they have above ground trunk.

etonia is a palm that I have seen only in pictures. I would like to see some more of them in the wild. Anyone of pictures of that?

[cfkingfish]

I asked Scott face to face (maybe he will chime in here), and he said they are very close genetically, and there is very little keeping them apart. There was a characteristic he did not go into which he believed made it a unique species. Visually I see a difference but genetics make the call.

[Eric in Orlando]

I've always noticed that about wild S. palmetto around Miami, especially in the Coconut Grove/Fairchild area. They have short trunks and more open growth.

[Eric in Orlando]

heres a wild S. etonia at Bok Tower in Lake Wales

[palmmermaid]

There are also S. etonia growing wild in Jonathon Dickinson State Park in north Palm Beach County. The reason I ask is because I help teach a Florida Master Naturalist class and one of the questions we always get is about the native palm species. Someone asked about the S. miamiensis in this class and I didn't have an answer. Chris Migliaccio at MDC seems to be of the opinion that it is extinct in the wild and may have even been a species. Just trying to get the low down so I can answer correctly. Here is a quote from the email:

"As the distinctions between the two were minor (fruit size and habitat preference), there were questions about whether Sabal miamiensis deserved species status as distinct from Sabal etonia.

But, if it really is extinct, the question may never be answered. Chris still holds some hope that S. miamiensis is only extirpated (i.e.: extinct in the wild) and that someone, somewhere, has saved live specimens in cultivation. Until that answer is known, Sabal miamiensis will remain just a footnote at the bottom of the list, and another addition to our list of casualties."

More food for thought.

[Eric in Orlando]

They are in cultivation, Fairchild and MBC should have it.

We have a S. miamiensis here at Leu Gardens. I got it from a vendor at the Broward Co. Palm Sale at Flamingo Gardens back in May 1999. Its grown bigger than S. etonia. It hasn't gotten any bigger than this size in the last 5 years or so.

Here is a S. etonia, planted 1990

[jayfro6]

Unfortunately, I don't know anything about Sabal miamiensis. I've read it's supposed to be similar to Sabal etonia, so I don't know if I'd really know it from S. etonia if I saw it. Here are some pics I took of S. etonia in the wild.

These are in Ocala National Forest, growing in sand pine (Pinus clausa) scrub.

[jayfro6]

There are some huge ones on the edges of some orange groves in Highlands County that my friend John told me about. I haven't seen any this big in Ocala.

[jayfro6]

I can't find my CD of Dade County rocklands pics, but I found this one of what I think is a "bonsai" Sabal palmetto growing in a small pocket of soil in the limestone. I can't tell if the old infructescences are visible, but many of them had been fruiting with no trunk. The second pic shows the terrain at Long Pine Key in The Everglades, where I took these photos. There were some trunked Sabal palmettos, but they were lucky enough to find a big enough hole to grow in.

[Ken Johnson]

I think that the "Extinct in the wild" statement is a bit far out. If Scott was studying them recently as live plants then the certanly are still around. That is the "palmetto's that looked different" are still around. Yes we have some wierd looking sabals down here on the oolitic limestone outcroppings and they add to the many "types" of palmetto all the way to the Carolinas. Thier close "cousins" bermudana, maxicana, mauritima. etonia and more look very similar in many ways. Other sabals are very much different looking and easier to tell apart.

BTW. Thanks so much for the Etonia pix. They are a scrubby little thing, yes? If you had a palmetto the same size next to one they would look pretty dam much the same no?

[sarasota alex]

If I remember correctly, Gizella Kopsick Arboretum in St. Pete has a small palmetto labeled Sabal miamiensis

[ron@springhammock]

Sabal miamiensis is described as having three orders of branching of the inflorescense while S. etonia and S. minor typically have two orders of branching. Like S. miamiensis, S. palmetto has three orders of branching. I remember reading an article that suggested that S. miamiensis may be a hybrid of S. palmetto and S. etonia or S. minor, can't remember which. Described as only supporting 3-6 yellowish-green leaves, sounds like a palm suffering from growing on limestone, so it would be interesting to see how a well grown one actually looks. The one at Leu Gardens sure looks a lot more robust assuming it's an actual S. miamiensis.

[redbeard917]

Are S. miamiensis and S. etonia as cold-hardy as palmetto? Is the Sabal with the open crown and short trunk a variety of, or palmetto? Does miamiensis form a trunk???

Jay, is that the same John from the NFPS? He has S. etonia from a trunking population of which I obtained a 1gal, which I'll probably plant at my place.

[redbeard917]

Are S. miamiensis and S. etonia as cold-hardy as palmetto? Is the Sabal with the open crown and short trunk a variety of, or palmetto? Does miamiensis form a trunk???

Jay, is that the same John from the NFPS? He has S. etonia from a trunking population of which I obtained a 1gal, which I'll probably plant at my place.

I also have seedling of miamiensis. I suspect both are hardy to zone 8.

[palmsOrl]

I've also seen the specimen at Leu Gardens and to my amateur eyes it looked the same as a juvenile Sabal etonia (or palmetto). The pictures also show this. I am also curious to know more about this species, could it have been classified merely based on a somewhat stunted, malnourished population of Sabal etonia growing on limestone in the Miami area? Have any genetic studies been conducted to find out what the real story is?

-Michael

[jayfro6]

Jay, is that the same John from the NFPS? He has S. etonia from a trunking population of which I obtained a 1gal, which I'll probably plant at my place.

Yes, that's the John. I found them a few weeks ago, but it was difficult to get good photos with all the Smilax tangled up in them.

[redbeard917]

Yes, that's the John. I found them a few weeks ago, but it was difficult to get good photos with all the Smilax tangled up in them.

Nice find! How much trunk did they have? It's hard to tell from the pictures but it looks like a few feet? This may show my ignorance, but how do you know they weren't S. palmetto?

[redbeard917]

I've also seen the specimen at Leu Gardens and to my amateur eyes it looked the same as a juvenile Sabal etonia (or palmetto). The pictures also show this. I am also curious to know more about this species, could it have been classified merely based on a somewhat stunted, malnourished population of Sabal etonia growing on limestone in the Miami area? Have any genetic studies been conducted to find out what the real story is?

-Michael

Here is an image of S. miamiensis from PACSOA to compare. It's hard to tell if the pic from Leu Gardens has "praying hands" in the leaflets. The amount of recurve looks similar.

Comparing these palms, it looks like palmetto has much more droop in the leaflets than etonia or miamiensis.

[palmmermaid]

Luke,

Have you actually seen one of the S. miamiensis in the wild or only at a garden?

Woodville - I spent many happy summers in Woodville with my great-grandmother and cousins there. My mother was born there. My father was from Crawfordville so I've got relatives in that area.

[palmsOrl]

Thanks for the info redbeard, I guess that's also a good way just to tell S. palmetto from S. etonia (didn't know there were any easy to spot morphological differences.

-Michael

[palman]

They can become quite tall too......If you wait 30 years!

[jayfro6]

Yes, that's the John. I found them a few weeks ago, but it was difficult to get good photos with all the Smilax tangled up in them.

Nice find! How much trunk did they have? It's hard to tell from the pictures but it looks like a few feet? This may show my ignorance, but how do you know they weren't S. palmetto?

I could tell they were Sabal etonia because the seeds are about twice the size of S. palmetto.

[Walt]

Sabal etonia abound on my property. They are second in number only to Serenoa repens as a native palm which grows on my property. Sabal palmetto is a distant third in number.

Like many species of palms, I see variance in Sabal etonia. Some have more erect petioles, others lay out more relaxed, maybe petioles 15 degrees semi-vertical to ground.

The seeds and overall drupe size varies, too.

I still can't distinguish between a juvenile Sabal palmetto and Sabal etonia, say maybe 2-4 feet in overall frond spread, but Sabal etonia always flowers and sets seeds, that's how I know. So far I've never, ever seen a Sabal palmetto flower until it had a well developed trunk.

The below Sabal etonia is one that has more erect petioles:

The Sabal etonia below has more lax, less erect petioles:

33 photo slideshow of some of my Sabal etonia palms:

http://outdoors.webshots.com/slideshow/575096310yEXzhX

[Al in Kona]

Many years ago I got seeds of Sabal etonia from a Central Florida guy that was here on Palmtalk. I told him I was interested in some TRUE Sabal etonia seeds and he said he knew where some were in habitat and he did send some and I now have this nicely growing Sabal etonia in our garden. Check the pics. Happy to have this nice small very compact palm in the garden.

[John in Andalucia]

From a different topic..

What's is in cultivation as S. miamiensis does not even closely resemble S. etonia, Ed

Really, Ed?

There are also S. etonia growing wild in Jonathon Dickinson State Park in north Palm Beach County. The reason I ask is because I help teach a Florida Master Naturalist class and one of the questions we always get is about the native palm species. Someone asked about the S. miamiensis in this class and I didn't have an answer. Chris Migliaccio at MDC seems to be of the opinion that it is extinct in the wild and may have even been a species. Just trying to get the low down so I can answer correctly. Here is a quote from the email:

"As the distinctions between the two were minor (fruit size and habitat preference), there were questions about whether Sabal miamiensis deserved species status as distinct from Sabal etonia.

But, if it really is extinct, the question may never be answered. Chris still holds some hope that S. miamiensis is only extirpated (i.e.: extinct in the wild) and that someone, somewhere, has saved live specimens in cultivation. Until that answer is known, Sabal miamiensis will remain just a footnote at the bottom of the list, and another addition to our list of casualties."

More food for thought.

I'd be interested to know how opinion is divided between S. miamiensis bearing "no resemblance" to S. etonia, and those that consider it to be "similar, yet different".

To quote Christian's earlier reply:

I asked Scott face to face (maybe he will chime in here), and he said they are very close genetically, and there is very little keeping them apart. There was a characteristic he did not go into which he believed made it a unique species. Visually I see a difference but genetics make the call.

[liao yu chieh]

Dear all

Can someone tell me what I post

Are they sabal uresana or what are they ?

The last two pictures is the babies from the seeds I collect from the first two photos....

[J. australis]

Either way, I'm inspired to plant out my Sabal etonia now. What a cute little bugger.

[Mandrew968]

Sabal etonia abound on my property. They are second in number only to Serenoa repens as a native palm which grows on my property. Sabal palmetto is a distant third in number.

Like many species of palms, I see variance in Sabal etonia. Some have more erect petioles, others lay out more relaxed, maybe petioles 15 degrees semi-vertical to ground.

The seeds and overall drupe size varies, too.

I still can't distinguish between a juvenile Sabal palmetto and Sabal etonia, say maybe 2-4 feet in overall frond spread, but Sabal etonia always flowers and sets seeds, that's how I know. So far I've never, ever seen a Sabal palmetto flower until it had a well developed trunk.

The below Sabal etonia is one that has more erect petioles:

The Sabal etonia below has more lax, less erect petioles:

33 photo slideshow of some of my Sabal etonia palms:

http://outdoors.webshots.com/slideshow/575096310yEXzhX

Walt, these palms look very palmate to me. Etonia is known for having an extremely costapalmate leaf, which I don't see in the photos. Sabal minor has the least costapalmate leaf of all the sabals. It also has a distinct cleft in the middle of the leaf with what looks like strings hanging from the leaves--Your photos look like Sabal minor to me...

[Walt]

Sabal etonia abound on my property. They are second in number only to Serenoa repens as a native palm which grows on my property. Sabal palmetto is a distant third in number.

Like many species of palms, I see variance in Sabal etonia. Some have more erect petioles, others lay out more relaxed, maybe petioles 15 degrees semi-vertical to ground.

The seeds and overall drupe size varies, too.

I still can't distinguish between a juvenile Sabal palmetto and Sabal etonia, say maybe 2-4 feet in overall frond spread, but Sabal etonia always flowers and sets seeds, that's how I know. So far I've never, ever seen a Sabal palmetto flower until it had a well developed trunk.

The below Sabal etonia is one that has more erect petioles:

The Sabal etonia below has more lax, less erect petioles:

33 photo slideshow of some of my Sabal etonia palms:

http://outdoors.webshots.com/slideshow/575096310yEXzhX

Walt, these palms look very palmate to me. Etonia is known for having an extremely costapalmate leaf, which I don't see in the photos. Sabal minor has the least costapalmate leaf of all the sabals. It also has a distinct cleft in the middle of the leaf with what looks like strings hanging from the leaves--Your photos look like Sabal minor to me...

Nope. Sabal minor aren't even common to Highlands County, Florida, which is mostly dry scrub on the Lake Wales Ridge (although I did find some S. minor in Highlands Hammock State Park, which has some very wet areas).

The inflorescence on my palms are decending (not long and ascending as that of S. minor), and mine mostly have two orders of branching (whereas S. minor has three orders of branching). Some of my S. etonia have 3 orders of branching, leading me to believe they are a variance or some kind of hybrid.

Lastly, Don Hodel (Environmental Horticulture Advisor, University of California Cooperative Extension) visited my place two years ago and looked at virtually all of my native palms (collecting seeds from six different plants)can concluded all were S. etonia, some with variances.

See below link for Florida sabal morphological distinctions:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fr357

[Mandrew968]

I'm not gonna pit my expert angainst your expert, but I think you are overlooking a key discerning factor. Aside from the admittance of your palms having three branching orders(a Sabal minor trait), we still have a very palmate looking leaf, you posted. Walt, I am fairly educated when it comes to Sabals--Etonia has a very costapalmate leaf. I do not see that in your photos... We can agree that they are Sabals though!

[Walt]

I'm not gonna pit my expert angainst your expert, but I think you are overlooking a key discerning factor. Aside from the admittance of your palms having three branching orders(a Sabal minor trait), we still have a very palmate looking leaf, you posted. Walt, I am fairly educated when it comes to Sabals--Etonia has a very costapalmate leaf. I do not see that in your photos... We can agree that they are Sabals though!

I think the thrust of the problem is that you can't discern from my photos that my Sabal etonia do have costapalmate leaves, and not more flat like S. minor. I have S. minor that I bought from Perkins Nursery in LaBelle, Florida, and the leaves are definitely more flat and more deeply divided into the sinus. But moreover, S. minor's inflorescence is far less bushy and much longer (extending out well above and over the leaves).

Right now my S. minors are not in flower, but all my S. etonia are, with S. palmetto starting.

I have many, many S. etonia. And like I said in previous posts, I find lots and lots of variation amongst them. So much that I feel some may be hybrids. I have one that has about 18" of unbooted trunk on it and this one gets both inflorescence of 2 and 3 orders.

I referenced Don Hodell in my previouse posting. I emailed Don some years ago various photos of my S. etonia for his opinions. Don makes one or two trips a year to Montgomery Botanical Center in Miami. Two years ago during one of his trips he made a day trip up to my place (Lake Placid) as he wanted to see Sabal etonia in their natural habitat. I told him all of my etonia were natural as my property was virgin when I bought it and all the etonia were growing on it at that time (1998). Don collected S. etonia seed from six separate plants to give to Montgomery, plus he took some for himself to take back to California (which he subsequently sprouted).

In any event, I can see why it appears to you that some of my etonia are minors, but I believe all are etonia. For one thing, the environment here is very, very dry, unlike most areas where S. minor grow. In all my travels through Highlands County the only S. minors I saw were in Highlands Hammock State Park. I think Highlands County is on the southern fringe of S. minor's range, and at that they would only be found in areas well off the Lake Wales Ridge in more moist soils.

Note in the above photo that the inflorescence doesn't extend over and past the frond leaves. Most of my S. etonia inflorescence don't even rise this high (see below photos).

In the above photo, this is the same palm as in the first photo, but looking down one of the leaves. Note the weak divide. Some of my S. etonia are far more costapalmate and deeply divided and twisted than others. And note the filaments, which S. minor don't have (another dead giveaway when separating etonia from minor).

Above is another S. etonia. Note the bushy, low ascending inflorescence

Above is another S. etonia showing the bushy, low ascending inflorescence. Sabal minor inforescence isn't bushy, but has long, arching peduncle extending past the leaves. I'd have to dig out a photo of my minors when in flower to contrast the difference.

[tjwalters]

Walt,

Some infructescences on my S. minor palms over the years:

Two showing on right side of palm:

One more:

[Jason in Orlando]

I agree with Walt. They're etonias. No doubt.

Jason

[Walt]

Walt,

Some infructescences on my S. minor palms over the years:

Two showing on right side of palm:

One more:

Yep. Typical S. minor inflorescence that is far more verticle and where the lower peduncle is bare, whereas S. etonia flowers almost the length of the peduncle.

[Walt]

I agree with Walt. They're etonias. No doubt.

Jason

The only doubt I have ever had is whether I have any hybrid etonia, as there is much variance amongst them in so many ways.

[Brad Mondel]

Clemson botanical gardens 

[Marius]

These are seedlings of Sabal miamiensis on the left and Sabal minor on the right.  Both from seeds obtained from PalmatierMeg.  The seedlings are quite different on leaflet shape, width and colour.