Native FL palms

[SunnyFl]

I read somewhere that there are 17 native FL palms.  I could think of 10:

FL royal

T. radiata

T. morrissii

S. palmetto

S. minor

Serenoa repens - green form

S. repens - silver form

R. hystrix

A. wrghtii

C. argentata

Are there others? Or maybe I forgot something obvious?

[Mike in Houston]

Sabal etonia - The Scrub Palmetto is another

[ruskinPalms]

Pseudophoenix sargentii I think is native to extreme southern FL.

[Jeff Wilson]

Hi Sunny,

  I found this on the CFPACS site.

http://www.plantapalm.com/centralfl/NewsNativePalms.asp

Jeff

[SunnyFl]

(ruskinPalms @ Jul. 01 2006,09:31)

QUOTE

Pseudophoenix sargentii I think is native to extreme southern FL.

Thank you Ruskin - you're exactly right.

Aaaaargh I can't believe I forgot to add it!!!  [[slaps forehead]]  And when I posted - I was sitting right across from one!  Really this memory loss/age thing is gettin' bad.

Cute lil sargentii, and very special to me as it was a gift.

Jeff said:  

  Quote

I found this on the CFPACS site.

Hey, thanks - I read through it.  I didn't know S. etonia was native, and never heard of the S. miamiensis.  So now we've got 13 on the list of natives - whoever said 17 must have been mistaken.

[Robert Lee Riffle]

Sunny, I'm afraid you only have nine spp. listed as the two color forms of Serenoa repens are not separate species.

[SunnyFl]

(Robert Lee Riffle @ Jul. 01 2006,18:17)

QUOTE

Sunny, I'm afraid you only have nine spp. listed as the two color forms of Serenoa repens are not separate species.

Yikes - that's two doozies in one post - gotta be a record for this board!   I must've been out in the sun too long

In contrition, I will have to plant another palm.

Anyway, in the archives on CFPACS, the official total of native FL palms, according to Neil Yorio, is 12 (what we came up with here) - not 17.  So maybe I shouldn't kick myself too hard for only coming up with 9-which-should-have-been-10 (had I not forgotten my lil sargentii) off the top of my head?

[Robert Lee Riffle]

>>> that's two doozies in one post - gotta be a record for this board! <<<

HARDLY!  ;-))

[Patrick Palms]

i am trying to get a Pseudophoenix vinifera  palm, does anyone know where i cn get this palm from?

[Guest]

I'm surprised the Roysonia regia /elata debate hasn't factored into this count. I wonder if anyone could tell me if that was ever settled. I know that a landrace was settled in the everglades going back ages ago. Are they R. elata or R. regia migrating northward from Cuba? I've heard of sublte phenotypic traits betwixt the two but I have never seen a definitve conclusion. Sorry to digress from the live count of Fla. natives. The question has been stirring around in my head for years. Pseudophoenix Vinifera might be found with the seed stores of Martin Gibbons and Thobias Spanner. I can't remember their web site but they're easy to find.

[Dave-Vero]

Scott Zona's treatment of palms in the Flora of North America rules that the royals in the Big Cypress region of SW Florida are the same species as the ones in Cuba.  The Florida palms were named much earlier, by William Bartram, who saw them on the St Johns River around 1774, so under the rules of plant nomenclature, the entire species would now be called Roystonia elata.  However, an exception was made.  

Flora of North America

Zona of course provides a complete listing of palms in the conterminous US.

[pin38]

this is probably a dumb question, but does c. nucifera count as native to the Florida Keys?

[Dave-Vero]

Flora of North America for coconut.

[TikiRick]

From my understanding the Coconut can not be classified as a native of Florida. I believe that the jury regarding its true land of origin is still out.

I was once told that if it wasn't here in 1492 when Columbus discovered the "New World" then it was not considered a native.

Many will state that a palm (or any plant) is native since it has been here many years, grows easily, and is well adapted to our climate/soil/etc. This is not necessarily true. If it were true, this would apply to many of our exotic invasive weeds or trees!

[Ken Johnson]

Oops. You may wodner if Pseudophoenix is native.The Spanish may have  found some but Them inunjns may have planted them.

I wonder if that palm is native or if the "early" exxxxplorers planted them.

[Dave-Vero]

Maize, among other plants, came to Florida via the Antilles.  For corn, the route was from Mexico to Venezuela, up the islands, then west to Cuba, then Florida.  

Assorted agaves seem to have come by the same route.

[SunnyFl]

(Ken Johnson @ Jul. 09 2007,19:06)

QUOTE

Oops. You may wodner if Pseudophoenix is native.The Spanish may have  found some but Them inunjns may have planted them.

I wonder if that palm is native or if the "early" exxxxplorers planted them.

This touches on a very interesting aspect in the "native-only" movement.  They draw a proverbial line in the sand as to what constitutes "native."  Namely, a plant had to be here prior to the Europeans getting here.

If Native Americans brought a plant over prior to that, hm, according to these folks' own assertions, the plant is still native.

Which illustrates the silliness of picking out one particular point in time for determining native status of anything.  Species spread.  That is a fact of nature - it's the biological imperative.  It's why we have nasty weeds like beggars-ticks which stick to your pants when you're weeding - the stickers were designed to adhere to animal fur as an animal roamed, in order to spread a species beyond its habitat.  The farther a species could spread itself, the better its chances for avoiding extinction.

So, whether a species spreads via stickers, or via a bird carrying a nut far away from where it plucked it, or whether a seed travels down a river, or whether it simply gets moved by a human, it's a natural process.

I think we can therefore continue to call the Pseudophoenix native.  If "Them inunjns" hadn't brought it here, maybe a passing bird would have.  splat.  

[Dave-Vero]

The Columbian era is a useful divide.  Post-Columbus, there's some useful historic records.  Also, I'm not aware of any cultivated plants coming from Eurasia or Africa pre-Columbus.  

The subject's been discussed at length in Florida, where assessment of the contributions of pre-Columbian peoples is difficult because they're mostly extinct, apart from descendents of the Calusa in Cuba.  Dan Austin's book on Florida ethnobotany would be a good sourcebook.

[ruskinPalms]

Hey, Sunny, I was thinking the same thing. Thanks for saying it so well.