Livistona muelleri?

[Walt]

The late John Bishock was big on Livistona species, having many large species planted. Most of my Livistona speices of palms I bought from John.

In April of 2003 I bought what John told me was L. muelleri. Some folks tell me my palm is not L. muelleri, but maybe a hybrid of same.

It makes no difference to me just what species/cross my palm might be as I'm extremely pleased with it. The palm has grown very well for me since 2003, having developed 5 feet (1.52M) of clear trunk (since I recently removed the lowest 37 fronds). I think this palm holds more fronds at one time than any other palm I have.

The palm also has a fair degree of cold hardiness, having just seen a low of 23.5F degrees (-4.7C) with very little frond damage.

If there are any Livistona experts here, please give me your opinion as to the species of this palm. Thanks.

My Livistona palm just after bringing it home from John Bishock's:

My Livistona palm just a few days ago after I gave it a hair cut (removal of 37 lowermost fronds):

A short, grainy video of my livistona:

http://outdoors.webshots.com/video/3091192...?vhost=outdoors

[cfkingfish]

Walt-

It isn't a pure L. muelleri, but it certainly looks like it has some of its genes in it. It looks hybridized with L. decipiens.

[fiji jim]

I agree with Christian here and can see similarities with both spp and cannot see this palm as a pure muelleri.

This pic shows a pure muelleri that I grew from seed planted in December 2003.

My favourite Livistona.

Jim

[Jonathan]

How does it look like L. muelleri......exactly?

I'm definately no great shakes with ID, but I've gotta say, that having just seen these palms in the wild, I can't see the faintest resemblance to muelleri.

It holds its petioles erect just like australis, my guess is australis X decora, just to be controversial!

Cheers,

Jonathan

[Walter John]

Full australis I'd say Jonathon.

[cfkingfish]

It is hard to argue with Australians (and Tasmanians) as they live in proximity to its habitat, much as us Floridians live near Sabals and Copernicias. I do think, however, that the upright form of the leaflets and the limited segmentation is unlike L. australis or L. decora. The petiole boots are short and don't seem to have that hook that both australis and decora present. It is costampalmate and that is not a trait of L. muelleri at all, hence a possible hybrid.

[gyuseppe]

for me there is much of decora in this plant

[Walt]

To all who replied to my post (and thanks for your opinions):

The first photo is for Kingfish. I said in my original photo my livistona had about 5 feet of clear trunk although it may not appear so. I was taking a photo this morning of the trunk and wanted to show something for scale, but all I had in my pocket at the time was the little pea shooter (.25 cal auto) I carry while about on my property. I know Christian can relate my scale indicating device, regarding my palm.

I think my livistona may have decora in it. I've posted some photos of some of the L. decora I'm growing. I have four decora planted in the ground, all bought from John Bishock.

One thing I noticed about my L. decora is that their growth rates are all different. Some are very slow, while others are faster, but none are near as fast as the livistona in question, the muellerii hybrid I first posted.

Below is a close up view of the trunk of my livistona hybrid, with .25 cal automatic pistol for scale:

Below is one of four small L. decora palms I have planted. I bought this one as a 5-7 gallon size from John Bishock

Below are two small L. decora I planted at the same time and at the same size (5 gallon) I bought from John Bishock. Note the size difference, yet they both get the same cultural care and sun, water, etc.:

Below is a small L. australis I planted around the same time as my L. decora. I also bought this palm from John Bishock. The L. australis grows slower than two of my larger L. decora, but about the same as my two smaller decora:

I have another livistona palm I bought from John Bishock that may also be a hybrid. I will post a photo of it later today, as maybe someone can I.D. if for me.

[Tala]

Walt,

will side w/ Christian on this one, I see some muelleri in it, the way the fronds are held up and rigid, flat; def. lots of decora in it as well. What a robust grower! You could always count on John to have things no one else did, whether he knew it or not ...

[Jonathan]

It is hard to argue with Australians (and Tasmanians) as they live in proximity to its habitat, much as us Floridians live near Sabals and Copernicias. I do think, however, that the upright form of the leaflets and the limited segmentation is unlike L. australis or L. decora. The petiole boots are short and don't seem to have that hook that both australis and decora present. It is costampalmate and that is not a trait of L. muelleri at all, hence a possible hybrid.

....and we do like to argue!

I still cant see it.....theres a lot of variation within australis, as within Sabal palmetto, depending on where the parent tree originated. L. australis grows along 2500km of eastern Australia, fom sea level to 1000m altitude, tropical to temperate, in rainforest, swamp forest, open woodland and sandy hollows in dune systems, and the leaf shapes and growth form are vary sublty throughout. I was totally convinced that the Livs. I saw at Eungella in north Queensland were a different species, but John Dowe has just placed them safely back within australis.....bugger.

The rate of growth also makes me shy away from muelleri, which is generally regarded as very slow for a Livistona.....hybrid vigour aside.

We'll never know, unfortunately, without a paternity test!

Cheers,

The Obstinate Tasmanian!!

[Walt]

Walt,

will side w/ Christian on this one, I see some muelleri in it, the way the fronds are held up and rigid, flat; def. lots of decora in it as well. What a robust grower! You could always count on John to have things no one else did, whether he knew it or not ...

Dave,

I sure miss ole John. Yes, that guy always had something, many things, every time I went to visit him. I used to go visit him every spring, maybe the last of February or early March. I'd say one half of my palm species I bought from John.

In any event, this particular livistona is my fastest grower and I'm very pleased. I keep it well watered. And this livistona pumps out new fronds like a machine gun!

[Walt]

It is hard to argue with Australians (and Tasmanians) as they live in proximity to its habitat, much as us Floridians live near Sabals and Copernicias. I do think, however, that the upright form of the leaflets and the limited segmentation is unlike L. australis or L. decora. The petiole boots are short and don't seem to have that hook that both australis and decora present. It is costampalmate and that is not a trait of L. muelleri at all, hence a possible hybrid.

....and we do like to argue!

I still cant see it.....theres a lot of variation within australis, as within Sabal palmetto, depending on where the parent tree originated. L. australis grows along 2500km of eastern Australia, fom sea level to 1000m altitude, tropical to temperate, in rainforest, swamp forest, open woodland and sandy hollows in dune systems, and the leaf shapes and growth form are vary sublty throughout. I was totally convinced that the Livs. I saw at Eungella in north Queensland were a different species, but John Dowe has just placed them safely back within australis.....bugger.

The rate of growth also makes me shy away from muelleri, which is generally regarded as very slow for a Livistona.....hybrid vigour aside.

We'll never know, unfortunately, without a paternity test!

Cheers,

The Obstinate Tasmanian!!

I don't intend to engage in this friendly arguement, as I have very, very little knowledge about the Livistona genus, hence why I posted my query.

What I do know it that I'm very pleased with this palm, and it is by far my favorite Livistona palm I'm growing. Maybe as time goes by we can narrow it's ID down. I don't know how large it will have to be before it first flowers. Hopefully, that won't be too many more years from now.

[Jonathan]

At the rate that things growing, it wont be long at all!

Keep us posted on how it turns out.

Cheers,

Jonathan

[Walt]

Rather than start a new posting, I will make another query concerning another livistona palm of unknown species I am growing, in hopes someone can make a guess as to the species or possible hybrid make up of same.

I got this palm from John Bishock, again as a 5 gallon, maybe 7 gallon, but certainly not larger. I can't recall now when I got this palm, but it was around the same time or a year later than the L. decora and subject hybrid livistona palm. (I need to go back on some of my back up CDs and find just when I bought and planted this palm for comparison.)

Anyway, this palm has been a moderate grower in terms of speed. Further, this palm has never, ever suffered any cold/frost damage, and it was exposed to 23.5 F degrees (-4.7C), while two trunked A. cunninghamiana palms and one foxtail palm just about 10 feet away were totally defoliated, plus they are struggling mightly to come back, hence this lends credence to the low temperature I said I had.

The palm, as you can see in the photo has a reddish color on the new petioles and the leaves are deeply divided.

I've posted on this palm before and I believe Dave of Orlando said it was some kind of hybrid, but of what make up I don't recall.

In any event, this is another livistona I'm very pleased with. This palm doesn't get a lot of full sun, so if it did it would probably grow somewhat faster. No matter, because in years to come it's gonna be a really nice palm in its section of my garden.

The below photo shows an overall view of my unkown species of livistona palm/b]

The below photo shows a typical leaf of my unknown livistona palm:

The below photos shows the reddish colored petioles of my unknown livistona palm:

[palman]

Perhaps he grew it from seed collected from the one in his yard near the pond?

[gyuseppe]

whatever it is and very nice!

congratulations you beautiful Livistona

[peachy]

I think it looks very much like a juvenile L. drudei ! Maybe with a little something else thrown in (to explain the red) It is growing way too fast to be a L. muelleri, they are noted for being slowpokes.

Peachy

[Walt]

Perhaps he grew it from seed collected from the one in his yard near the pond?

I don't think John grew this one from seed.

[Walt]

whatever it is and very nice!

congratulations you beautiful Livistona

Thank you. To me it makes little difference just what species/cross my palm is (although it would be nice to know), I like it for what it is.

[Walt]

I think it looks very much like a juvenile L. drudei ! Maybe with a little something else thrown in (to explain the red) It is growing way too fast to be a L. muelleri, they are noted for being slowpokes.

Peachy

John Bishock may have been mistaken when he told me my palm was L. Muellerii. He told me he's been mistaken before. Perhaps that was what he was told when he bought the palm for resale.

I have a small L. drudei I also bought from John Bishock. Now this palm has been a slow grower for me. It's still very small and I've had it for a few years now. Also, I found it to be much more cold tender than the palm with the reddish petioles. In fact, my L. drudei was completely defoliated from my 23.5F (-4.7C) low temperature I had this past winter. But you would never know it now, as it has regrown new fronds.