These are palms locations of my state - Rio Grande do Sul, the southern state of Brazil.

I think this very interesting to people know where we can found palms in other places.

Hey Kelen, interesting map...you made it yourself?

When you mention Syagrus romanzoffiana in the whole State you include the Pampa and the Serra Gaúcha too?? What about S. oleracea? Any Trithrinax campestris ever found in Rio Grande do Sul?

nice Kelen

I am interested in the 'mountain giant' cold hardy form of Syagrus romazoffiana.

is there a population from the 'tablelands' thats takes more cold and freezes naturally?

What a marvellous idea and well done Kelen. I would love to see this for the states of Australia as well and the for the rest of the planet in fact.

Perhaps a project the IPS committee could undertake for the benefit of all and for posting here. Lord knows the board could do with a lift like this, now that would get some good old boys back posting.

Kelen--

That's a great map! Especially for those of us who live in areas for which your region remains a "hot spot" for potential cold-hardy palms.

Do you know the location of the 'orange crownshaft' Euterpe edulis that have been making their way into the palm market? These are supposedly from a cold-winter location in Argentina, I suspect this would mean near the border with your state, do you know? That would be interesting information for those of us trialing these. I looked at a topographic map and the inland Euterpe edulis you show at the top of your map look to be in quite an elevated location, and I was wondering if this might be the general area of their distribution.

I'm also amazed that Bactris setosa is found in such a southerly area, I think that is one that needs some testing for cold-hardiness, considering the cold-resistance of most of its neighbors!

Mapping of palms in my area is very poor, at least in sources outside isolated articles in Palms/Principes that have described newly discovered populations. In my region, we have the following, all of which I think are poorly represented in existing maps:

- Sabal minor populations covering vast territories in different habitats throughout Louisiana and Mississippi. I've never seen a map that comes close to showing the extent of these populations.

- Rhapidophyllum hystrix has been documented just northeast (I think approximately 70 miles) of my location, and I would guess extends even further westward and southward, but has not been found I'm sure due to sparse population and the dense forest in this region. (The best map I've seen to date is on page 65 of Principes v34/2, April 1990.)

- Further to the south/southeast of this area are populations of Serenoa repens that of course extend far down into Florida in a broad swath. I believe these are not accurately mapped in Louisiana. I know someone from Thibodaux, Louisiana who remembers the spiny 'Saw Palmetto' in the forests there when he was young, out of range of any maps I've seen.

- Sabal palmetto begins somewhere between coastal Mississippi and the Florida panhandle, though I'm sure it's difficult to even judge distribution of this species because so many have been planted along the coastal plain and have started naturalizing populations into Louisiana. I'm guessing that the natural range perhaps could be estimated from looking at the extents of the sandy coastal plain, though, since that seems to be its favored substrate (even if it grows fine in soil with more humus).

Unfortunately the USDA distribution maps are very coarse and incomplete, and can give a distorted picture of distributions of these plants. I'm sure there are IPS members living in these "margin-of-distribution" areas who have observed specimens while exploring these habitats, and that many of us would love to find a relatively complete map of all the North American palms as detailed as yours in Rio Grande do Sul! Perhaps someone here knows of some better maps and can contribute them in this thread.

I agree with Wal that it would be a great undertaking for the IPS to coordinate a more detailed map project worldwide. As far as I know, the best overall maps to look at right now are found by looking at a Google Earth map of the specimens documented for each species at tropicos.org, but I have no idea how exhaustive their specimen-data are.

bump!

Surely others have thoughts on this.

Great map Kelen, and what a great idea Wal, acurate maps like this could be of huge interest, huge job, but a worthwhile one, and the IPS are in a great position to obtain the information

Bruce.

Hey Kelen, interesting map...you made it yourself?

When you mention Syagrus romanzoffiana in the whole State you include the Pampa and the Serra Gaúcha too?? What about S. oleracea? Any Trithrinax campestris ever found in Rio Grande do Sul?

Gileno,

I just don't know the northwest of Rio Grande do Sul very well. Yes, I made myself this map.

Syagrus romanzoffiana only don't occurs in very high place in northeast of Rio Grande do Sul, but in some forest there, I already see a lot of S. romanzoffiana seedling, so this specie is arriving there. In the pampa there are a lot of S. romanzoffiana.

I know two old S. oleraceas cultivated here in RS, they are growing very well.

I never see Trithrinax campestris here.

Edited October 13, 200916 yr by kelen

This pic I took in Bagé - Pampa Gaúcho.

nice Kelen

I am interested in the 'mountain giant' cold hardy form of Syagrus romazoffiana.

is there a population from the 'tablelands' thats takes more cold and freezes naturally?

I think the hardiest S. romanzoffiana live in high places in northeast of RS. Next to Nova Prata. They are huge!

I think my Syagrus rommies are that robust variety. All of them are big and bulky.

Here in Western Australia palms don't start until the Pilbara region 1000 miles north of my area. All are Livistona's. Livistona alfredii is the southern most naturally occuring one. Livistona marie var occidentalis, kimberleyana, and victoriae occur further north near the northern territory. Now if it comes to cycads we have lots of Macrozamia reidlii in the bush here. Others are Macrozamia dyeri and M fraseri or sp Eneabba. Cycas occur in the Kimberley region.

Best regards

Tyrone

Tyrone, that's really interesting that no Livistonas make it to Perth, since you have a nice frostless climate and they seem to be so pervasive across Australia...do you think it's because of lack of rainfall in general, or lack of underground water-sources?

It would indeed be great to have a map as detailed as Kelen's for all of Australia, has the government done anything along these lines?

Michael, I don't think the government has ever made a palm map. It should be done.

The Pilbara Livistona ie Livistona alfredii is a remnant species from when Australia was a wet tropical place more or less. It exists at Millstream due to the permanent water. There is meant to be one or two ancient specimens at Cape Range NP in a very remote spot at the top of a mountain which will get dew and condensation from the ocean, but 100mm of rain a year. They would be at 22S.

We certainly get enough rainfall around Perth but north of Perth the rainfall drops off dramatically, and it's all arid zone stuff until you get to the Kimberley at around 16S. Until then you don't get proper summer rainfall that is consistent enough to keep a Livistona alive, except near permanent water. Livistona australis and decipiens grow down here really well with no attention and self propogate with ease with a bit of summer irrigation, but in the bush with no irrigation they'd eventually die, unless they're able to tap into permanent water.

Best regards

Tyrone

Hey Kelen, interesting map...you made it yourself?

When you mention Syagrus romanzoffiana in the whole State you include the Pampa and the Serra Gaúcha too?? What about S. oleracea? Any Trithrinax campestris ever found in Rio Grande do Sul?

Gileno,

I just don't know the northwest of Rio Grande do Sul very well. Yes, I made myself this map.

Syagrus romanzoffiana only don't occurs in very high place in northeast of Rio Grande do Sul, but in some forest there, I already see a lot of S. romanzoffiana seedling, so this specie is arriving there. In the pampa there are a lot of S. romanzoffiana.

I know two old S. oleraceas cultivated here in RS, they are growing very well.

I never see Trithrinax campestris here.

Hi Kelen,

Your map is indeed very interesting and accurate. What were your sources? Lorenzi's book brings small maps showing the distribution of each species but yours seems to be more complete and detailed.

As a suggestion, why don't you extend your research to all 3 states in the southern region (RS, Santa Catarina and Paraná),? I'm sure both Palmtalk members Nigel (in SC) and Alberto (in PR) might be able to help you and therefore we could have a more precise idea of all palm genera native to South Brazil, and a good indication of cold hardy provenance. Maybe the supporting maps could show altitude (elevations) and climatic zones too, so we could have a better idea of the climatic range the species are adapted to in habitat. Congratulations on your efforts...was this map made as a project for University? By the way, are your cultivated Syagrus botryophora doing fine after the cool winter in the south?

Best regards.

Kelen,

-How is the climate of Santa Maria,since I see there are Euterpe edulis near there. At what altitude they grow?

-You don´t have Attalea dubia in Rio Grande do Sul?

-The only Geonoma species are G.gamiova and G.schottiana?

Edited October 15, 200916 yr by Alberto

Tyrone, that's really interesting that no Livistonas make it to Perth, since you have a nice frostless climate and they seem to be so pervasive across Australia...do you think it's because of lack of rainfall in general, or lack of underground water-sources?

It would indeed be great to have a map as detailed as Kelen's for all of Australia, has the government done anything along these lines?

And so it is done.......

......at least for Livistona - L. decipiens is of course now decora, and the Central Australian distribution of mariae, as well as southern distributions of australis are left off. You will note that my own state of Tasmania has zero, zip, nill and zilch species....which is unfortunate!

I'll probably get sued by PACSOA for uploading this, but seeing as I havn't heard squat from them since renewing my membership four months ago - too bad - this is for the benefit of all Palmanity...let them dispute that!

Cheers,

Jonathan

[Hi Kelen,

Your map is indeed very interesting and accurate. What were your sources? Lorenzi's book brings small maps showing the distribution of each species but yours seems to be more complete and detailed.

As a suggestion, why don't you extend your research to all 3 states in the southern region (RS, Santa Catarina and Paraná),? I'm sure both Palmtalk members Nigel (in SC) and Alberto (in PR) might be able to help you and therefore we could have a more precise idea of all palm genera native to South Brazil, and a good indication of cold hardy provenance. Maybe the supporting maps could show altitude (elevations) and climatic zones too, so we could have a better idea of the climatic range the species are adapted to in habitat. Congratulations on your efforts...was this map made as a project for University? By the way, are your cultivated Syagrus botryophora doing fine after the cool winter in the south?

Best regards.

Kelen,

-How is the climate of Santa Maria,since I see there are Euterpe edulis near there. At what altitude they grow?

-You don´t have Attalea dubia in Rio Grande do Sul?

-The only Geonoma species are G.gamiova and G.schottiana?

Alberto,

Santa Maria is hotter than Canguçu in 5ºC more or less but frost is very common in both places. Santa Maria is 150 m high. Euterpe edulis grow very well here, in Canguçu they survive in protect places very well too. To me, Santa Maria has a subtropical climate, Canguçu is temperate like Carambeí I think.

I never saw Attalea dubia adult in Rio Grande do Sul, only Attalea speciosa, Attalea butyracea and Attalea phalerata and they are huge and wonderful!

Geonoma elegans occurs in northeast of Santa Catarina but there isn't in Rio Grande do Sul.

Attalea speciosa in Santa Maria - RS

I saw a Cocos nucifera in Sapiranga - RS!!!!!

Attalea butyracea in Novos Cabrais - RS (next to Cachoeira do Sul)

Attalea phalerata in Novos Cabrais.

Attalea (humilis???) in Porto Alegre botanic garden

My Attalea dubia and Attalea speciosa seedlings are very very well in cold. Miracle? or I'm dreaming? Alberto, do you have some Attalea dubia in your garden?

Edited October 16, 200916 yr by kelen

Jonathan, they missed the part of the map that had L alfredii. I was wondering if it had the Cape Range siting on the map. But they show nothing more than the Kimberley's.

Best regards

Tyrone

Jonathan--

That's a wonderful map, thanks so much for posting it!!

Santa Catarina Palm-map, it's not so accurate because I don't know very well this state. Nigel can help us!

Santa Catarina Palm-map, it's not so accurate because I don't know very well this state. Nigel can help us!

Kelen, I dont think I could do a better map of SC !! It is very comprehensive. On what basis do you say Butia capitata is growing here in those locations ? Lorenzi said he is coming here at beginning of December to see the Butias here on Floripa to establish if they are truly different, so maybe there will be one more to pin on the map.

Jonathan, they missed the part of the map that had L alfredii. I was wondering if it had the Cape Range siting on the map. But they show nothing more than the Kimberley's.

Best regards

Tyrone

Yes, I know.....I've got no idea why they didn't put the key out in the Pacific Ocean off North QLD.

Still its a pretty good map, and I used it extensively on my recent trip.

I'd have to say that PACSOA went through a golden age 10 years ago, they funded and produced some really good documents, Palms Beyond the Tropics by Keith Boyer, Palms of the SW Pacific by John Dowe, etc.....but I guess with falling membership the money is just no longer there.

Cheers,

Jonathan

Jonathan--

That's a wonderful map, thanks so much for posting it!!

You're welcome Michael!

Cheers,

Jonathan

Santa Catarina Palm-map, it's not so accurate because I don't know very well this state. Nigel can help us!

Kelen, I dont think I could do a better map of SC !! It is very comprehensive. On what basis do you say Butia capitata is growing here in those locations ? Lorenzi said he is coming here at beginning of December to see the Butias here on Floripa to establish if they are truly different, so maybe there will be one more to pin on the map.

Hi Nigel,

first, when I was in Maravilha (west of SC) I saw Butias capitata cultivated, so the people bring from some near place.

In the book Flora Catarinenis, I read the Butia capitata live in Araquari, Barra Velha, Florianopolis, Laguna, Palhoça, Porto Belo, São João do Sul and Sombriu, however, in the coast, the minor Butia I think is the true odorata. In this book, Butia eriospatha population is next one another. B. eriospatha cities: Irani, Leblon Regis (bigger population), Ponte Alta, Santa Cecília, Ponte Serrada.

In some cities of Rio Grande do Sul, where occurs Butia eriospatha, I see B. capitata and odorata together and some butias that I think is hybrid. Butia eriospatha live near of Porto Alegre too, where there are a lot of B. capitata.

Hi Nigel,

first, when I was in Maravilha (west of SC) I saw Butias capitata cultivated, so the people bring from some near place.

In the book Flora Catarinenis, I read the Butia capitata live in Araquari, Barra Velha, Florianopolis, Laguna, Palhoça, Porto Belo, São João do Sul and Sombriu, however, in the coast, the minor Butia I think is the true odorata. In this book, Butia eriospatha population is next one another. B. eriospatha cities: Irani, Leblon Regis (bigger population), Ponte Alta, Santa Cecília, Ponte Serrada.

In some cities of Rio Grande do Sul, where occurs Butia eriospatha, I see B. capitata and odorata together and some butias that I think is hybrid. Butia eriospatha live near of Porto Alegre too, where there are a lot of B. capitata.

Hi Kelen,

Yes there is many Butia capiatas cultivated here too in Floripa because the fruits of this butia are much better than odorata. My neighbour has a Butia capitata the same as those in Santa maria ( that you say are yatay) . The book Flora Catarinensiis is naming odoratas as capitatas. For sure in cultivation there is some hybridisation.

In cultivation or away from the litoral the Butia odorata is much bigger than what you find on the beach, but it is still smaller than those capitatas from Santa maria, and I desperately want to visit those plants you found in the wild when they are flowering to establish for sure if it is yatay or capitata.

Hi Nigel,

first, when I was in Maravilha (west of SC) I saw Butias capitata cultivated, so the people bring from some near place.

In the book Flora Catarinenis, I read the Butia capitata live in Araquari, Barra Velha, Florianopolis, Laguna, Palhoça, Porto Belo, São João do Sul and Sombriu, however, in the coast, the minor Butia I think is the true odorata. In this book, Butia eriospatha population is next one another. B. eriospatha cities: Irani, Leblon Regis (bigger population), Ponte Alta, Santa Cecília, Ponte Serrada.

In some cities of Rio Grande do Sul, where occurs Butia eriospatha, I see B. capitata and odorata together and some butias that I think is hybrid. Butia eriospatha live near of Porto Alegre too, where there are a lot of B. capitata.

Hi Kelen,

Yes there is many Butia capiatas cultivated here too in Floripa because the fruits of this butia are much better than odorata. My neighbour has a Butia capitata the same as those in Santa maria ( that you say are yatay) . The book Flora Catarinensiis is naming odoratas as capitatas. For sure in cultivation there is some hybridisation.

In cultivation or away from the litoral the Butia odorata is much bigger than what you find on the beach, but it is still smaller than those capitatas from Santa maria, and I desperately want to visit those plants you found in the wild when they are flowering to establish for sure if it is yatay or capitata.

Ok I understood

In Santa Maria there are a lot of Butias capitata cultivated and all the way to road. The Butias in Quevedos are very different and there are a big population natural there, to me, is different of all Butias but Lorenzi was here when I invited him, he collected leaves, fruits, measure, and consulted Larry Noblick. Noblick had concluded this specie is B. yatay.

Butia quevedos fruits

and

Butia capitata "molar" fruits

Wow Kelen, that first fruits are BIG! +- 6cm?????

What is B.capitata´´molar´´?

Edited October 17, 200916 yr by Alberto

Hi Jonathan, that is a great map from PACSOA, thanks for sharing. I'm a very enthusiastic Livistona fan and I've always wondered which species were native to the northern parts of OZ. I've just germinated my first L. victoriae seedlings here...and I was thinking they were native from the South, in Victoria...

This pic I took in Bagé - Pampa Gaúcho.

Are that jerivás (S.romanz.) near the horizon?

This pic I took in Bagé - Pampa Gaúcho.

Are that jerivás (S.romanz.) near the horizon?

Yes Alberto, they are S. romanzoffiana. I post this pic to show that S. romanz growing in Pampa too, there are jerivá in all state. In this day I took this photo was very very cold, I saw ice in surface water.

To me, this S. romanz are harder than S. romanz from higher places from SC and RS.

Edited October 17, 200916 yr by kelen

Wow Kelen, that first fruits are BIG! +- 6cm?????

What is B.capitata´´molar´´?

The people call Butia molar the B. capitata cultivated with biggest and sweet fruit: Butiá "molar", butiá "maçã" are some name popular.

Alberto, you remember that we saw those same big fruits and seeds in santa maria on that big cultivated Butia ?

This fruit was already 4cm and was not ripe so would get much bigger when ripe, I think 6cm or more.

Hi Jonathan, that is a great map from PACSOA, thanks for sharing. I'm a very enthusiastic Livistona fan and I've always wondered which species were native to the northern parts of OZ. I've just germinated my first L. victoriae seedlings here...and I was thinking they were native from the South, in Victoria...

I can understand why you thought that Gileno!

I think it refers to the Victoria River in the Northern Territory.

I'm tempted to post this map in a seperate thread, as this one has developed a dual topic, and I think there is a lot of interest in Livistona.

Cheers,

Jonathan

Well done, Kelen. Good maps, good palms, good topic, with so many interesting issues. I am surprised by the size of those Butia fruit.

As for sources, in official plant maps any dot should be referred to a herbarium collection. This sounds strict but makes sense - If someone sees a new palm location where no herbarium has ever been collected, then a new collection should be done, both for mapping and for representing a new population in a herbarium.

Carlo