Fast, hardy, clumping Ptychosperma

[mnorell]

In my continued testing of clustering palms that have a chance of resprouting quickly and vigorously after freezes, I'm wondering about one of my favorite genera, Ptychosperma. There's really very little info I can find here or elsewhere on hardiness and speed for members of the genus, aside from the usual suspects P. elegans and macarthuri...but with the huge number of species and I expect a large variation in elevation (if much less in latitude) in this genus, I figure there must be at least one that can survive, even if killed back to mulch-level, and make sufficient growth in our warm springs and summers. Dypsis pembana is showing itself to have this kind of strength and the necessary speed in my tests to date...but can anyone think of any Ptychospermas that might be similarly strong and very importantly fast in growth? I have microcarpum out for testing this year, and a macarthuri (though I assume the latter will permanently collapse pretty quickly at root-level, due to an intolerance to chill). Any ideas would be very appreciated!

[Ken Johnson]

I don't reckon any Ptychosperma will make it up there without extreme protection.

[mnorell]

Ken--

I wouldn't have thought Dypsis pembana would have made it, either, but even a quite small plant that defoliated has returned like a bull from last winter's wrath, after a 15-hour freeze to 24F, a smattering of less intense frosts/freezes and an average January temp of about 51F (I think last November was even colder!). It began pushing new foliage in March and is I think on its fourth leaf now. This is why I think there may be something from some elevation that would make it at root-level and be fast and strong enough to recover decently. Excepting the element of cold, can you think of any clustering Ptychosperma species that are robust and grow quickly, throwing leaves as fast as a pembana in warm weather?

[FRITO]

I agree with Ken,

I dont think you are going to find it, too cold and cool too long for us in the winter.

tropical plams even clumping cant hang. D. lutescens cant come back after a normal winter here with any manageble growth to write home about, they are cheap and easy enough to find to experiment with, let alone a much more rare and exspensive palm.

8 months out the year we can hang with south florida, but the other 4 months are what matter .

I suggest you put efforts in growing a big bad A. wrightii and some C. Microspadix (hybrids) for palm pushing the envelope.

[mnorell]

Frito--

I agree about Dypsis lutescens, it has been a complete failure here for me, I've tried it many times and it just can't cope with the cool winter soil, and grows far too slowly to recover from freeze damage. It tries and then seems to collapse. Same for baronii, which I have found to be a total wimp even in very protected spots. It just dies outright in a freeze. But I promise you D. pembana rocks by comparison, it is strong and very fast-growing. Try one! Just plant it in a sunny spot and mulch it to protect the bud, that's all I did and it has performed wonderfully to date. D. onilahensis (weeping form only) has also done well if not quite as impressive in speed, and I am trying D. lanceolata and saintelucei this year as well because they are both about as fast as pembana. I have certainly gone through several others that collapse and just will not make it. I firmly believe that trialing lots of species can yield a few contenders such as D. pembana. If a clustering palm can survive our winters at root-level, and return to be the same size or larger than it was the prior year, then it passes the "perennial test" and I consider it one worth growing.

I do indeed grow the other hardy clumpers such as A. wrightii, C. microspadix, A. engleri, Rhapis, P. reclinata, etc. and of course love them, as they are solid performers most winters and can return from the roots when zapped by a nightmare freeze...but am trying to test untried species and genera as well. I certainly may be wrong, but I enjoy the challenge, and with large genera such as Ptychosperma, which inhabit a variety of habitats, it just seems logical that there will be something that might be able to pass the test even if defoliated each year. Our climate is very limited in terms of solitary, arborescent palms as long-term specimens, so I think it just makes sense to experiment a bit with the clumpers as they represent the best long-term hope for new and interesting palm material for this zone.

I was researching a bit more and see that there are some Ptychosperma species that have been showing promise in Southern California and the less-tropical parts of Australia. But not much info on their speed of growth, which is very important if they are to recover sufficiently each year. If, for example, anyone in Sydney or just south have found a performing species, if it clusters and if it is moderately fast in that cooler-summer climate, our heat and humidity may make it a speed-demon. The roots and any below-mulch buds would stand a good chance of surviving our cool season, and very possibly be a very good performer since our spring provides a quick warmup here. Though our climate is overall more similar to southern China, in Australian terms (average temps, not extreme cold events), our climate in 9a areas of the southern states, such as Natchez or Mobile, Tallahassee or Savannah, et al could perhaps be compared to spending three months just south of Sydney, then spending the late winter and spring sliding up the coast to Townsville or Cairns and parking for the summer, then slowly back again. The heat and intense energy these plants can process during our long growing season gives them a lot of fortitude for our relatively brief winter, at least below soil-level where these dang occasional freezes can't penetrate. It's a unique climate and I think worthy of testing these clumpers to see if there's another A. wrightii or Arenga engleri in the bunch!

[MattyB]

Try C. radicalis tree form, multiplanted.

If you're bent on Ptychosperma then P. elegans, multiplanted is gonna be your best bet. Probably cheap to find in the internet too.

[tikitiki]

Try the clumping form of Ptychosperma schefferi. Mine has been through several cold winters with no problem. I'm not as cold as you but I have not lost a single leaflet.

[Tyrone]

Coastal Australia doesn't really get cold freezing weather. It may get prolonged cool, but wouldn't freeze a P macarthurii back to the roots. I think the comparisons between the US and Australia don't show the true picture. I don't beleive any Ptycho will take freezing weather.

Why not try something like Wallichia densiflora or Arenga micrantha.

Best regards

Tyrone

[mnorell]

MattyB: I do grow C. radicalis tree-form and the creeping form all over the place here...that is a great idea to take several tree-forms and plant them in clusters, though I find the trunking trait to be extremely variable between individuals and thus unpredictable until they bolt upwards. That species is great, moderately fast (6'+ with a nice trunk after four years) and dependable here for years at a time...but my point is to explore a bit to find naturally clustering palms that can be treated like perennials if necessary in this freeze-prone, semi-tropical climate in the Deep South. Thus P. elegans would not work since it's solitary and would freeze out and die very quickly in our winters with no chance of resprouting due to its habit. The criteria would be: a) caespitose habit to allow for resprouting after losing canes/trunks to heavy freezes; roots and sub-mulch-level buds able to endure three months of average 50-degree temps, and thus roughly 50-degree soil; c) a robust constitution to allow for resprouting, combined with a very rapid growth-rate during our very warm and long growing season. A huge bonus would be an ability for the above-ground parts to withstand moderate freezes under canopy, hopefully with little foliar damage once mature. Here the proven stand-bys are Rhapis in variety, Arenga engleri, Phoenix reclinata, Acoelorrhaphe, etc. I don't really expect any Ptychos to have the strength to survive above-ground and thus strength and rapid growth are a big requirement. As Frito commented, we have Florida-style weather for eight months and that obviously gives optimal conditions for fast-growing palms...but my ideal candidates are things on the order of Pinanga gracilis (which I still can't locate for testing) and Pinanga sylvestris and Licuala spinosa (both of which I am testing this winter), et al, which come from latitudinal or elevational margins of the distribution-range for their genus. Aside from most Sabals and Trachies, and perhaps the hardiest Butias, solitary palms are not a long-term choice unless they're acaulescent for protection in the worst years...to endure the charming combination of three days below freezing and single-digit extreme minima every fifty years or so.

Tyrone: I was talking about averages, not extreme temps, when I made the comparison with Australian locales. It was merely to give an idea for typical weather, for chill-tolerance and not freeze-endurance purposes. It's certainly far from a perfect analogy since things like Dypsis baronii are complete failures here where you can grow them in Melbourne apparently without issue. Obviously that species just can't take freezes, and everything including the roots turn to mush in such a situation...while a much more tropical plant like D. pembana bounces back with incredible vigor despite the double insults of freezing/defoliation and winter chill for three months.

Arenga micrantha hasn't done well here because it's very slow-growing and isn't very frost-hardy, which makes for ultimate failure even though it resprouts rather weakly. Wallichia densiflora also resprouts but is rather tender to freezes and also painfully slow for me here. W. caryotoides has done rather better in that regard here. In my trials so far, Syagrus flexuosa and, as I mentioned earlier, Dypsis pembana are showing themselves to be worthy contenders, as small plants have responded even after almost complete defoliation with very fast growth, no stunting, and an end-of-season size larger than that attained the previous year; and thus an attractive appearance in the landscape.

I think Ptychosperma is an interesting genus to explore because it inhabits a wide variation of habitats and also I think multiple genera (e.g., the Actinophloeus group from the genus Drymophloeus) were conflated into it, which may imply further diversity in its genetics; some are rated as relatively fast-growers; and also many species have either not been tested in extra-tropical areas or info is not readily available on the subject.

tikitiki: I will try P. schefferi if I can find it, thanks for the tip. Does it grow fast, and do you know how cold you were last winter?

[MattyB]

Michael, I know Jungle Music has P. schefferi. I've seen it there and wondered about it because I don't think I've ever seen a large one. Might be worth a try to mail order one.

[mnorell]

Thanks, Matt, I'll call Phil and see what he's got. Appreciate it!

[realarch]

Michael, here's a photo of a P. schefferi I found while scouting around in Hilo. Not a great photo and it could have used a bit of a clean up, but it will give you an idea of the type. You might check into P. waitianum as well.

Tim

[palmsOrl]

If I was absolutely bent on getting a Ptychosperma to make it outdoors there in southern Mississippi I would buy a larger trunking specimen of P. schefferi or P. macarthurii, plant it in a very protected spot, and use a torpedo heater or smudge pots on freezing winter nights. It might just make it then. There is a large, many trunked specimen of P. macarthurii in Orlando near UCF (at a motel near the corner of Alafaya and SR 50) that has been there for a number of years and I've never seen it freeze damaged. That includes this past winter.

-Michael

[mnorell]

Thanks for the suggestions. Tim, that specimen in your photo is a beauty. Can anybody comment on the speed of P. schefferi or P. waitianum under warm growing-season conditions (similar to Florida)? That is such an issue for me since the plant has to be able to get leaves up for sugar production and a decent appearance if heavily damaged or killed back to ground-level. I've had so little experience with the genus and I don't really know whether any Ptychosperma can be called "fast." I did plant a P. elegans in West Hollywood in 1996, and while it has survived and looks good to this day, I think it is just now about 8-10 feet high. And I sprouted that seed about 1990! That's how slow they can grow in cool climates...obviously much faster under Florida or Hawai'i conditions.

As far as macarthuri goes, I've heard stories of collapse due to cool temps, and I think I never saw one in all the years I lived in SoCal. I'm not too surprised that there are some nice specimens around Orlando considering the moderate-to-warm soil temps there year-round. Michael, I assume the Orlando specimen you mention is in an area that didn't see much below freezing last winter? I would think the foliage would be frost-sensitive. I think of macarthuri as rather slow-growing as even in Hawai'i many specimens look like they lack much vigor, though that could be for a number of reasons. I have one in a treepot in the greenhouse that has really just crawled along so far, though it's been rather shaded out during the growing season.

[Tyrone]

To grow a Ptycho well in a cooler climate you can't put it in the shade like in the tropics. You've got to give it as much sun as you can before it burns up and you must give it winter sun. That's what I've found. P microcarpum will grow in shade for me but is way too slow. However a little specimen I baked a bit now handles strong direct sun with no probs and is going great.

Best regards

Tyrone

[tikitiki]

My Ptychosperma schefferi is in the coldest part of my yard. The heliconia were fried about 3 feet away. My yard saw three nights of frost and four nights below freezing one of which to 29f. It may have got some heat from the house but still no protection from the frost and had zero damage. It is planted next to the house now not where it is in the photos because it grew to fast and out of the space in about two years.

[Eric in Orlando]

If I was absolutely bent on getting a Ptychosperma to make it outdoors there in southern Mississippi I would buy a larger trunking specimen of P. schefferi or P. macarthurii, plant it in a very protected spot, and use a torpedo heater or smudge pots on freezing winter nights. It might just make it then. There is a large, many trunked specimen of P. macarthurii in Orlando near UCF (at a motel near the corner of Alafaya and SR 50) that has been there for a number of years and I've never seen it freeze damaged. That includes this past winter.

-Michael

Here it is last year

[mnorell]

Wow, that P. schefferi is beautiful, tikitiki! Love those big ruffled leaflets. And I really like to hear it grew that fast, so that goes to the top of my list, I think!

Tyrone, I know what you mean about shade vs. sun. I've discovered that in a big way about Ravenea. I planted most of mine (glauca, sambiranensis, robustior) in shade and they all defoliated (glauca the least) in low 20s...and those in shade put on perhaps one or maybe two leaves per year, a losing proposition long-term. R. glauca, if placed in sun, speeds right along, though, and recovers quickly. I certainly have noticed that my canopied Dypsis (orange crush, onilahensis upright form, heteromorpha) have been painfully slow. But pembana and onilahensis 'Droopy' and even decipiens push quite vigorously where I have them in at least a half day of direct sun. It doesn't surprise me that Ptychosperma has similar issues.

Eric, that macarthuri is very impressive and has a strangely broad-curving clump-shape compared to the macarthuri I've seen over the years. I'm used to it being almost completely vertical in a tight clump. But it looks great, I can't believe that took that 2009 freeze without any leaf-damage!

[Moose]

Ptychosperma waitianum has very thin diameter stems and would not handle below freezing temperatures very long. I have two younguns and they got leaf burn at 34F for a few hours and windy conditions. Any Ptychosperma above Orlando would be pushing it unless you were on the coast. Ms. - I don't think so

[Tala]

yrs ago I once authored an article on precisely what you're after, palms that would take annual defoliations and grow back, palm annuals we'll call them. Here I have good luck w/ the following clumpers: Areca triandra, Ptyco mac., Pinanga coronata, Dyp. mada., Caryota mitis, Licuala spinosa, Wallichia oblongifolia (form. densiflora), these always regrow from the roots even if I lose the main stem(s). Some sensitive Chamaedorea will do this too. But a lot of these are in shade, slower growth overall but it helps deflect frost damage as well. I'm prob. leaving a few out, will have to go back & check me lists. I've tried other Ptycho's like waitianum, burretianum, sanderanum, etc. w/ no luck. The bigger the palm the faster they usually recover. Often I plant various solitary crownshaft palms in groups of 3 just to facilitate a quicker recovery (from an aesthetic view anyway). Various Archonto's, Wodyetia, etc. are great for this.

[mnorell]

Dave--

That's great info for me and I'd love to see the article! I've often looked at your comprehensive notes on Orlando freezes and plant damage, they have been a great assist to me in trying and/or eliminating certain choices here in my chillier area. You have done a wonderful service to the palm world with your information on hardiness in your area on the fringe of the 10a zone. Unfortunately I'm 10 degrees colder on average than you are in winter, and so I think that eliminates a certain number of things you mention that have worked for you in Orlando. A. triandra is one of my favorites but I have had poor luck with it outdoors, my trial plant last winter did hold one small stem but it ultimately collapsed in spring. But I think it's worth trying again, perhaps in more sun with a larger specimen. This year I'm trying vestiaria (red form) as I think it's the closest in hardiness to triandra and has that clumping habit I need...even though I don't hold out much hope for this tropical beauty.

I will try a P. macarthuri but may wait until my plants are larger. Pinanga coronata has also croaked on me in the past but it was a small plant in a winter-shade area, and also may have been a lower-elevation form. Caryota mitis has so little leaf-hardiness and grows fairly slowly as well, but I'm trying monostachya this year as I think it will at least have more leaf-hardiness. I recently bought a nice-sized Dypsis madagascariensis but it was bare-rooted and, perhaps for that reason or some other, unfortunately it looks to be collapsing, so I may have to wait until I get another next year to try it.

There's such a big different between my 9a and your 9b/10a climate. You're able to grow the solitary palms you mention but these would be a no-go after the buds rise above soil-level here, so I don't even attempt them, though I must admit my Foxy Lady (arecina parentage) is unbelievably hardy, having sat stoically through 24F 15-hour freeze that damaged or killed everything around it!

The fast growth and lack of stunting is the deciding factor for these tropical types since defoliation (and perhaps even stem-kill on the more tender types) will likely occur every year except on the 9a-hardy plants, of which I think there are very few remaining to be tested! If I'm correct, you may suffer defoliation on most of your plants every few years, but they usually have a few seasons between freezes to build up a crown, am I right? I'm sure that makes a big difference for long-term success. But that Dypsis pembana seems so very strong and makes a handsome plant even with a few leaves in its crown so I'm very happy with that one, and also Syagrus flexuosa, even if it defoliates while a Santa Catarina Queen looks fine in an average winter...after a really bad freeze the flexuosa might be able to regenerate from the base where the queen can't.

Please do post here if there are any others you think of, or if your article is available online, and also if you have tried any of the Ptychospermas that have been suggested by others here, particularly P. schefferi. That one does look promising to me.

[Walter John]

I like the idea of multi-planted P.elegans which I did myself some time ago. I would encourage that, it looks great imo. I believe elegans would be hardier to cold compared to macarthur. My macarthur palms yellow a little in winter whilst the soliatires look just fine and dandy.

[cfkingfish]

If I were in your zone, I would try either some of the thicker-leaved Ptychospermas, such as P. schafferi, or some of the narrow leafed varieties, such as P. microcarpum. Stay away from the thinner, wider leaved varieties like P. waitianum, P. cunetaum, P. caryotoides, etc. Your other option is to get a dwarfish one and pot plant it, and bring it in on some of the coldest nights in the winter. Ptychospermas can handle cool periods of weather, but hard freezes are bad!

[mnorell]

Christian--

Is the hardiness angle with thick-leaf or thin/narrow-leaf types over the others something to do with genus reassignment, or with elevation in habitat? Were these types previously classified outside Ptychosperma? Perhaps their hardiness-level comes just from your personal experience but I wonder what might be the reason behind the rhyme. Also is there a speed difference and/or vigor in returning after freezes that you've noticed?

I pretty much figure that even the hardiest Ptychosperma will pretty much defoliate in one of our hard freezes, so the speed and vigor part of the equation may weigh much more heavily, also perhaps bud/stem hardiness so that at least it wouldn't have to start over from the base year after year...though I don't hold out much hope even on that front. P. schefferi is especially attractive to me because its leaf is so unique that even if it were a dwarf, sprouting from the ground each year, it would add something to the landscape.

[Eric in Orlando]

We had P. microcarpum killed outright at 26F back in 2/1996. Didn't even come back from the roots.

[mnorell]

Oof! Thanks for that piece of info, Eric. Was it under canopy or out in the open? Do you have any experience with schefferi, or did you have any other Ptychospermas that went through that freeze?

[Eric in Orlando]

Going back in the records, I forgot, we had P. lineare, also, and it was killed along with P. elegans. They were growing under high shade but had some opening to wind.

This freeze just wasn't one night at 26F. Winter of 95-96 had several freezes scattered over 3 months. In Dec. there was one night at 32, Jan had a night at 32 and one at 28 then in Feb. one at 32 then 26.

Currently we have P. elegans, P. macarthurii, and P. waitianum. The P. macarthurii was killed back to the roots in Jan. 2003 after one night at 27f, it has grown back to about 6ft. The P. waitianum has been through 2 winters. Its in a very protected location so it probably hasn't seen below upper 30s.