A Foxtail landscaping question

[Tyrone]

I just want to get the thoughts from the collective wisdom on this forum regarding this landscape issue I'm having to confront.

A client wants foxtail palms. Not an issue in itself, but the garden bed is raised 600mm wide (2ft wide) bounded by a concrete pool on one side and a brick fence that sits 2.3m (7ft) tall on the other.

So, what do you guys think? Will the foxtails start causing structural issues, or will they just mold themselves to the space and do no wrong??????

Let me know your thoughts, as I value them.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Jonathan]

I'd go for something smaller Tyrone.

I cant speak from experience with Foxtails, but I know a little bit about structures.

If the roots get under the footing of the wall and then force it up or outwards, then its all history, so to speak. Brickwork dosn't deflect too well!

Cheers,

Jonathan

[Tyrone]

Thanks Jonathan. That's my thoughts too, but I just wanted to test if I was being too conservative. In business the customer is always right EXCEPT when they're wrong and are going to damage things. The trouble is, it's a fullsun area, and there's not too many skinny palms which will take fullsun. I may have to go with some Yucca's.

People often design and build there hard scape features before consulting a horticulturist to see if the garden they eventually want will fit. With the smaller and smaller land parcels that people are building on, garden designers are going to have to jump through hoops to make the garden work. What amazes me is how many people put waterfalls etc up close to boundary fences without leaving a metre or two behind it to plant it up and disguise the waters source and make it look like it's coming from somewhere natural. People will pave right up to within a hairs breadth of the boundary and wonder why it's plain looking. If people cut back on the paving just a little, they'd have a bit of room for a nice garden. I think what's happening though is many "pavers" are calling themselves garden designers, with a big emphasis on the hard scape and little emphasis on the soft scape. The end result is nice paved area with the odd small plant from Bunnings. Boring.

Thanks for replying Jonathan. Your thoughts are much appreciated.

Best regards

Tyrone

[peachy]

Tyrone, a foxy would eventually get a bit too big I think for that space but what about a Chamaedorea plumosa ? They will take full sun and Perth's cooler climate too. They dont get too tall, nice skinny trunk and plumose fronds. Just a thought anyhow.

Peachy

p.s. they grow extremely fast too

[Walter John]

Carpy ?

[gavilan1]

OK, an expert should jump in here and explain the bit about palms being more closely related to grasses than trees, and what effect that the palm root structure will or will not have on the nearby cement or masonry work in question. I seem to remember someone assuring someone else that palms do no harm to solid structures around the roots. A palm crown is obviously a different matter, especially when planted too close to a roof eave or other overhang. Someone please answer the original question authoritatively (and accurately, of course). Thanks.

Personally, I would go ahead and plant, centered between the described physical limits, to allow the most room all around each trunk and root ball/system. Good luck.

[The Germinator]

My botryphora is in full sun, it is a skinny version of the Queen Palm.

I planted out some Foxes in an even smaller bed about 1.5 ft by 3 ft scallops in the cement between my cement pool deck and block wall, I hope I do not run into problems. Looks like I am trying to fit ten pounds of palm in a 5 pound bag.

[PalmsZA]

Ty

I reckon Ed has the perfect palm, not only fast and easy but very pretty!

Another option has got to be Chambeyronia.

Cheers

Dennis

[Ken Johnson]

We see some big fat Foxtails from time to time.Trunk diamiter alone can get past 12" and a flaired base can be even more!

On the subjuct of roots and structure for sure palms can push up stuctures that do not have huge footers. I once saw some Bismarkias in 8x8 planters that had busted the planters all to hell. There was tile popping off as I looked at them! It was VERY expensive for the home owner to fix. They had to cut the palms out and remove the planters and start over. Big hassel! Pool was messed up for months.

Maybe you should find some old foxtails for the client to look at and let them see what they look like after just few years.

BTW even Ptychosperma elegans can get too big. And think about the flowers and seeds getting in the pool.

[Jonathan]

OK, an expert should jump in here and explain the bit about palms being more closely related to grasses than trees, and what effect that the palm root structure will or will not have on the nearby cement or masonry work in question. I seem to remember someone assuring someone else that palms do no harm to solid structures around the roots. A palm crown is obviously a different matter, especially when planted too close to a roof eave or other overhang. Someone please answer the original question authoritatively (and accurately, of course). Thanks.

Personally, I would go ahead and plant, centered between the described physical limits, to allow the most room all around each trunk and root ball/system. Good luck.

...er.....right....we'll all try harder in future...

[TikiRick]

MY friends did exactly what you are mentioning. Planters along side the pool, framed by the concrete decking. They regret it. The foxtails are continually busting the sides of the pool and pushing up the concrete decking. The roots are stronger than one would think.

Other thoughts to a palm planted so close to the pool:

Tattered fronds get caught into the automatic vacuuming system (I know this first hand) and clog up the lines beneath the pool decking

Inflorescence and seeds doing the same thing

Any attempt at fertilizer can get into the pool and iron pellets will RUIN the finish of any pool bottom

Overflow of chlorinated water will eventually kill the palm outright

Mulched palm beds will overflow with strong rains and wash into the pool

Don't get me wrong....palms around a pool go hand in hand...but it has to be the right palm in the right place.

Foxtails are HUGE when grown correctly!!!

[gavilan1]

Sorry, Jon. I didn't mean to come across wrong, but this question comes up many times, and I've seen posts here on the board with what seemed to be definitive comments indicating that palms don't do that type of damage. All of the anecdotal comments here seem to support the contrary. Time to crawl back under my rock.

[Palm Guy]

Tyrone,

Thought of a few which may be more suitable. Selected them on basis of smaller diameter trunk size than a Foxtail... Not sure if all of them would be easy grows for the average palm enthusiast or in your client's location.

Normanbya...looks like a foxtail...grows alot slower but thinner base!

Veitchias...same fast growth...slightly less trunk girth

Adonidia

Howeas

Hyophorbe indica?...I think you have a few of these yourself!

Cyphophoenix nucele or elegans

Phoenix rupicola...seen these growing on limestone rock here...they can definitely live in tight places for a long time.

Phoenix roebelini...overused...not tall but should be happy there

2 ft might be a little tight for most palms even some of the aforementioned. Are you able to get a pic so we can get an idea of what your dealing with?

Best of luck to ya...

Cheers

Mike

[Palm Guy]

What Doug said is mostly right. Palms roots can still do damage but its not the one root that gets into a foundation...Its when you have a mass of roots pushing on a structure in a confined area. So a planter 1-2 ft wide MAY eventually buckle if there is a large palm sitting in it. I have personally seen a 10-15 ft Royal sitting in a 1X20 planter and there had been no damage to the planter...It most probably will eventually bust, but its well known that palms will survive long periods of time pot bound...the pot however may not survive.

But Doug's point should be heard as it bodes well and encourages people to plant more palms. Palm roots do not expand in diameter with age like dicots do. So when a palm grows a new root , that root will remain the same diameter for the entire life of the root. For example, when a Royal poinciana grows a root that enters a crack in your foundation it slowly begins growing in both diameter and length thus creating a wider crack over time. When a Royal Palm root gets into your foundation, it grows in length but it does not grow in diameter so no futher pressure or widening of the crack. Falling palm fronds, falling seeds and toppling in hurricanes are other issues...

[Jonathan]

Sorry, Jon. I didn't mean to come across wrong, but this question comes up many times, and I've seen posts here on the board with what seemed to be definitive comments indicating that palms don't do that type of damage. All of the anecdotal comments here seem to support the contrary. Time to crawl back under my rock.

No worries Doug, I must have been feeling a bit precious last night

The way I see Tyrone's particular dilema is that its purely a question of displacement; ie. the space between the wall and the pool can only hold 'x' volume of material, whether its soil, roots or whatever. As soon as the palms grow to a half decent calliper and the roots start filling up that space, you suddenly have 'x' + 'y' trying to fit in that same area.....'x' + 'y' = cracked wall or pool, no matter how you look at it - something has to give way.

Also Foxtails come from dry, rocky country in Nth Queensland, and I imagine that their roots can penetrate nearly anything....so you're not even safe under your rock

[R.E.Var Kotobuki]

If the cold hardy spec check out, how about a suckering Dypsis pembana would be a cool one to try? great color, manageable height, and they wont overwhelm a spot.

Danny

[Tyrone]

Thanks guys for all your advice and discussion. I knew I could can't on everyone to pitch in with thoughts.

Yes, it's a root mass problem rather than a problem relating to secondary thickening of the cambium layer such as in dicots. I think confining the roots is the problem. If there was just a wall and free ground on the other side without any retaining wall, I don't think there would be a problem. Conversely a swimming pool with free ground after that wouldn't be a problem either. If you leave a palm too long in a pot it will invariably split it as it tries to form a proportionate amount of root mass to leaf mass. I don't think concrete will hold a foxtail back unless it's 3ft thick and reinforced with steel. Noone builds pools or walls like that.

I'll have to search for a suitable plant for the area. Carpies and P elegans will get too big in the base eventually. Normanbya's require more water than most people will give here, and will eventually fatten up when happy. Howea's will grow very well but will fatten up to almost fill the entire gap when mature. Chambeyronia's will eventually handle the sun but noone has sunhardened ones over here, and smaller ones will be burnt to death in fullsun in summer here. Chamaedorea plumosa does handle sun, but at the nursery they bleached in summer. How do they handle wind? The property is in windy old Fremantle. I think C glaucifolia can handle sun though it still does bleach in summer for me. It took a 45C day without burning at my place. The only S botryphora here are at one leaf stage. My options list is running out. I may have to go for some Cordyline Burgundy Spires. Nice and safe and boring.

Here is a pic of the pool etc.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Tyrone]

Just read Danny's comments. How big will Dypsis pembana get in the base? They do burn a bit here when less than 6ft tall. This will be a hot area with strong seabreazes in the afternoon and in winter.

Best regards

Tyrone

[R.E.Var Kotobuki]

Just read Danny's comments. How big will Dypsis pembana get in the base? They do burn a bit here when less than 6ft tall. This will be a hot area with strong seabreazes in the afternoon and in winter.

Best regards

Tyrone

Hey Tyrone,

D. pembana is a med palm (under 30'/that I've seen), its been proven to handle full sun as well as cold (we had some growing outside in our 2007 freeze, so they saw 25 F and didnt touch them) in So-Cal. As for trunk diameter on dominant canes expect something silimar to a D. lutescens (4-5"), note that althought this species clumps it is not a heavy clumper (prob 5-6 canes/maybe more on a real happy one ).

Here are some photos off pacsoa

Mutere Shot: http://www.pacsoa.org.au/palms/Dypsis/pembana.jpg

Clump Shot: http://www.pacsoa.org.au/palms/Dypsis/pembana02.jpg

Hope this helps!

Cheers,

Danny

[ariscott]

Gulubia costata?? Or is that too tropical? Or too hard to find?? Mine doesn't seem to have very thick base.... What about Bentickia??

Regards, Ari

[cfkingfish]

I would try Chamaedoreas, either C. cataractum, plumosa, or glaucifolia maybe?

[brodklop]

Tyrone, your client has a problem. Maybe this is a creative solution if he wants palms of some sought.

1) dig a hole to a depth lower than the footings of the wall and pool. I know a bit of work.

2) get some sheet aluminum or corrosive resistant metal sheet and bend it to a cylinder shape and place it in the hole. Rivet the join to form a bottomless pot.

3) fill the bottom foot or so with gravel if the soil below is heavy. If the soil is sandy and well drained which it probably is ,then this step would not be necessary.

4) Plant a palm who's mature base diameter is less than the metal pot. Back fill with heavy nutrient rich soil to a level below the top of the metal pot so adventitious root will not grow into surrounding soil. Top up with thick mulch or pebbles or both.

A bit of extra work but doable.

Cheers

Brod

[John Case]

I'd try Dypsis onilahensis...

[Daryl]

Tyrone, as you indicated earlier, the problem lies in the root mass. All large palms develop a large root mass over time. That confined area is not enough to handle the root mass of most large palms once they reach full size. Even though the individual roots do not cause damage to structures, the continual production of new roots consume more and more soil space, eventually exerting a lot of pressure on surrounding structures such as walls and footings. I have seen Dypsis lutescens do this as much as any other palm.

My advice would be to only plant small species in this area to avoid potential problems in future. As to what species...well the choice is endless...but nothing that gets over 5m tall would be a good start.

Daryl

[Jonathan]

Hey Tyrone,

would Ravenea glauca be a posibilty? Or are they still too big?

cheers,

Jonathan

[Tyrone]

Thanks for all your comments. Jonathan I did think R glauca, but it tends to spread wide and will still get too big. The client wanted upright palms.

I think I'm going to have to go with cordylines. Unfortunately the landscape pickings over here are quite boring when it comes to palms. You can buy little seedlings if you're lucky, but it wouldn't suit my instant look clients.

Ari, Gulubia costata won't grow here, although I wish it would.

Thanks Brod for your suggestions. If it was my place I'd probably try it, but on someone elses property I can't really experiment.

Christian, I originally designed an understory of C cataractarum, but they didn't like them. Something about not liking the drooping leaves getting in the way of there walking on the pool edge when cleaning the pool.

Yep cordylines it will have to be.

Best regards

Tyrone

[MattyB]

Dypsis sp. 'fine leaf' (is this called D. plumosa now?) is another idea. It's upright in habit.

[Tyrone]

True Matty, but they thicken right up. The ones in Brisbane in Mt Cootha BG are big thick robust canopy trees now. If only these people had just left a metre of garden bed instead of the 600mm we could have done something nice. Oh well.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Palm Guy]

Would any of the Drymopholeus survive there? I'm having lots of luck with my Drymopholeus beguinniis even though we have cool winters...

[ariscott]

True Matty, but they thicken right up. The ones in Brisbane in Mt Cootha BG are big thick robust canopy trees now. If only these people had just left a metre of garden bed instead of the 600mm we could have done something nice. Oh well.

Best regards

Tyrone

I guess some people don't think about these things before they go ahead with their hardscaping.... I know some that had planted plants where they shouldn't and caused all sorts of problems. At least you think about it before planting something that they want....

Regards, Ari

[ariscott]

I forgot to add - Tyrone... pity about Gulubia costata. They are very nice palms. Mine are getting big!! Maybe I should post photos..

Regards, Ari

Edited August 5, 2009 by ariscott

[Miccles]

Hi Tyrone - is this the place in Freo....not far from the waterfront and next to the footy field ? That place was stunning.. killer location !!!

[Justin]

I realize that this may be heresy on a palm site, but what about something non-palm, like a banana, traveler's tree, bird of paradise, etc.? Those are all relatively well behaved, the traveler's tree may look pretty cool since it grows out in only 2 directions, and they don't have seeds like the palms do.

[Tyrone]

Hi Tyrone - is this the place in Freo....not far from the waterfront and next to the footy field ? That place was stunning.. killer location !!!

Hi Miccles, that's the place. It's an amazing location.

I've decided to take this approach. I'll make it very clear that foxtails may cause damage to his structures, but if that is what he REALLY wants, I'll do it for him, but I'll put in writing that he decided on the foxtails and that I thought it was risky and that he should periodically check his structures for damage, that way clearing myself of any negligence. He doesn't like the idea of Cordylines either.

Justin, thanks for the suggestion. But both the travellers and Strelitzia nicolai get quite vigorous root systems that will break pretty much anything in my experience, IF, the roots are confined in too small a space. However like any palm, if the roots can roam freely unconfined they don't do any damage.

I'm just hoping that the skinny Darwin grown foxtails I'll put in will never fatten up and get robust. I find Darwin foxtails if they're left in a pot after they form the first ring tend to stay a bit skinny. Perth ones however if planted early tend to bulk right up.

Thanks for everyones pitching in with ideas. It helped me to work through some issues.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Leora Cohen]

What did you go with? How did the foxtails grow in such a small space?? Did any structural damage occur?