Anybody Know What This Is???

[Dypsisdean]

Help

[bgl]

How about Attalea?

[Ken Johnson]

Thats what I'm sayin Bo.

Well at first I was going to say it's a palm.

[bgl]

Funny you say that because that was my first thought as well - "well, looks like a nice palm"!

[Dypsisdean]

Funny you say that because that was my first thought as well - "well, looks like a nice palm"!

OK you comedians, what species? And does that mean this is just a baby?

[BS Man about Palms]

Funny you say that because that was my first thought as well - "well, looks like a nice palm"!

OK you comedians, what species? And does that mean this is just a baby?

Dean, if its a single, I think Attalea too. (If so, remember on the biennial at the bar-b-q lunch we had on the first tour day and the big palm next to our bus where we watched the tennis game from in the bus? That big palm that had Jeff and Andrea on it is an Attalea re: big.) BUT- I suspect you knew all that anyway.

The BS guy

[Jeff in Costa Rica]

Dean, it looks like a young Attalea to me also. They are a familiar sight in the forests around here.

It's hard to tell what species it is at that stage.

[Dypsisdean]

Dean, it looks like a young Attalea to me also. They are a familiar sight in the forests around here.

It's hard to tell what species it is at that stage.

I guess I could do some research, but I got lazy and thought I would ask here.

This palm had, if I remember correctly about 5 or 6 growing points. And another palm of the same type had a similar amount. It looked to be suckering, but I couldn't say for sure. I can't imagine someone planting Attalea as a group. I guess that's what's throwing me. Are there species that have multiple trunks?

I knew I should have taken a close up. But here's a blow up, the best I could do. I know it doesn't help much, but thought I would try anyway.

[Dypsisdean]

Ah,

I thought I took a close up. I just found it, although it doesn't help a whole lot still. But you can zoom pretty close in.

[bgl]

Dean,

Yes, that's definitely just a baby at this point. And I also have a few Attaleas with multiple trunks. I can only assume there had to be more than one seed that germinated, because they are all supposed to be single trunked. Have to show you next time you come over here. My guess is I'll be able to take a look at yours before that!

Bo-Göran

[Dypsisdean]

Thanks Bo,

I'll assume we have an ID then. It sure is a pretty palm as a "multiple baby."

[Gileno Machado]

Dean,

... I can only assume there had to be more than one seed that germinated, because they are all supposed to be single trunked...

Bo-Göran

Hi amigos,

Attalea seeds often have more than one sprout for each seed, especially the ones originating from south/southeastern Brazil. I've had as many as 4 with a few species I've tried. This character doesn't mean they are clumping species, they either germinate as a multiple or they remain single at the start. No future suckers or sprouts.

Unless you decide to eliminate the secondary sprouts, the palm will keep this clustering look, which is not so bad considering the upright display of the fronds...

[Gileno Machado]

Just found these pictures taken last year for a multiple sprouting Attalea brejinhoensis seed:

[bgl]

Gileno,

Interesting! And that certainly makes sense. Have to take a close look at some of mine this morning. Have a hard time visualizing a mature Attalea with four trunks...!

Bo-Göran

[MattyB]

I thought that there were Attalea species that sucker/multiple trunks. Anyone got a copy of the Encyclopedia handy?

[bgl]

I checked it yesterday, and this is what it says (among many other things): "All trunked species are solitary stemmed etc etc.", but it also says "The trunk-forming species have several human uses", which would imply that some species that do NOT form a trunk could be multi-trunked. ??

[DoomsDave]

Just found these pictures taken last year for a multiple sprouting Attalea brejinhoensis seed:

Sometimes parajubes and queen palms do that, too.

[bgl]

Checked some of my Attaleas this morning and found two doubles and two triples. One of the triples is an Attalea speciosa, and I know this is going to be one BIG palm. I bought the others as Attalea sp. but I believe they are A. cohune. Another BIG palm. They are all at least 20 ft tall, but that's just the beginning of course. Will be interesting to see how they're going to grow.

[Dypsisdean]

Another interesting tidbit of palm knowledge brought to you by PalmTalk. I'm glad now that I asked. Thanks Gileno, that would explain everything.

[MikeL]

In his book "Evolution and Ecology of Palms," Andrew Henderson synthesizes work from many scientists including several who have studied Attalea butyracea. In particular, Henderson cites one study in Costa Rica that showed that most A. butyracea fruits contained only one seed, but 40% of the trees produced 2 and 3-seeded fruit, and rarely, 4-seeded fruit at a higher frequency.

Of course, an interesting question is why the trees exhibited such heterogeneous behavior; that is, why produce multi-seeded fruit some of the time and one-seeded fruit at other times? The most interesting hypothesis involved beetles that lay eggs inside the endocarp of the fruit. As the beetle larva develops it consumes the endosperm and later bores its way out. It seems, however, that the a larva often remains confined to one locule of the fruit giving the opportunity for any additional seeds within the fruit to survive and germinate. Thus, having multiple seeds might provide an advantage against beetle predation.

One of the pieces of evidence to support this theory came from Panama where 2 and 3-seeded fruits are less common in Costa Rica. It turned out that rodents are a bigger problem for A. butyracea in Panama and rodents consume fruit regardless of how many seeds it contains. So this may be a case of coevolution where the different fruit eaters involved - either rodents or beetles - influence the number of multi-seeded fruit produced by the trees.

[Jeff Searle]

Now that's some good, and different information I just read in a long time! Thanks,

Jeff

[bgl]

Mike,

That's very interesting information! Thanks a lot! And great avatar! (Jeff, yours has been fuzzy for a long time - maybe time for an upgrade...? )

Bo-Göran

[Dypsisdean]

Mike,

That's very interesting information! Thanks a lot! And great avatar! (Jeff, yours has been fuzzy for a long time - maybe time for an upgrade...? )

Bo-Göran

Sorry, I'm veering off topic. But it is "my" thread.

I happen to know that Jeff is very sentimental about that avatar. Here's a blast from the past.

This is where it was taken from, off the old PalmTalk, in his marathon thread about his trip to Madagascar. Posted June 10, 2006.

Now there's a happy man.

[bgl]

I do remember that, and that's a great photo. But surely, there must be a way to improve the quality?

[Jeff Searle]

I do remember that, and that's a great photo. But surely, there must be a way to improve the quality?

Bo & Dean,

Wow, it's amazing how a topic can stray of course so much! Especially when you suddenly see that it's about you. Dean, do you hear the 'cries" for help? I should of changed my avatar many moons ago. But sometimes in life, when you let something go for so long, you then realize that there's no going back, or change is unthinkable. No crossing the line....I'll send you a pm.

BTW, the kids are all doing great. Their getting big!

Jeff

[Ken Johnson]

Now I have two things to add to this thread.

#1 I too hope Jeff cleans up his avatar. What ya got Jeff? Co Admin. is a good helper with this kind of thing!

#2 "South American Oil Palms" are a great group and while they can be grown in South Florida they have one major problem...they don't like freezes. Several times I have had palms with giant heads of leaves where they are holding 30 or more perfect green fronds up to 30 feet long and had the whole shebang burn! It takes more than 3 years to build a new head.

There are some very unusual members of this group. I hope to see more pictures of the different kinds.

[Gileno Machado]

Another interesting tidbit of palm knowledge brought to you by PalmTalk. I'm glad now that I asked. Thanks Gileno, that would explain everything.

Hi Dean,

I'm no Attalea expert (only have seedlings of some 6 or 7 species) but your question made me dive into a little further research and here's what I found:

Lorenzi's book has a very detailed description of all 27 species native to Brazil (18 Attalea, 2 Maximiliana, 5 Orbignya and 2 Scheelea) with photos of each fruit in cross section, for each species. he still considers the traditional separate genera, earlier placed together by Henderson, according to substantial floristic differences and other proper characters, until further detailed studies.

For my surprise, there is actually a heavy clustering species, called Attalea spectabilis, endemic to small area in deep amazonic forest of Pará state, supposed to shoot sprouts from underground rhizomes, expanding to heavy clumps. That one is in fact a small species with maximum 1 meter tall trunks, rarely seen in cultivation yet.

For some species there's always a single seed in each fruit: Attalea apoda, barreirensis, oleifera (rarely 2), salvadorensis and Orbignya sagotii, so they'll never sprout as multiples. Some other species: Attalea brasiliensis, dubia, exigua, spectabilis, Orbignya eichleri and Scheelea butyracea bear 2 seeds for each fruit and all the other species:

Attalea attaleoides, burretiana, compta, ferruginea, funifera, geraensis, humilis, pindobassu, seabrensis, tesmannii, Maximiliana maripa, X Maximbignya dahlgreniana, Orbignya brejinhoensis, oleifera, phalerata and Scheelea usually have 2-4 seeds in each fruit, the champions being Attalea pindobassu and Orbignya brejinhoensis with up to 8 loculos per fruit, thus prone to result in multiple sprouts at optimal germination conditions.

Most of these species (and crosses among them) are being closely studied and cultivated at the moment, at EMBRAPA, a federal government agriculture agency in Teresina, state of Piauí, for future extensive plantings for biodiesel production. They are looking for the most precocious and biggest fruit producing hybrid which won't get so tall in its lifespan, also for easier harvesting. I've seen a great documentary on our local cable TV showing a new hybrid called Attalea x teixeirana, the most productive palm studied so far, much better than Elaeis guineensis or any other Attalea, for this purpose.

The most beautiful Attalea I've seen in cultivation is A. funifera, the piassaba palm native from south Bahia state. The upright long plumose fronds are very distinctive among the other species in the genus and the extended fibers hanging from the crown are unique too. Here's a juvenile cultivated specimen at a friend's garden:

[Dypsisdean]

Gileno,

Thanks for taking the time for the great info, and awesome pic.

[Jose Maria]

All Attaleas have this special look when juveniles, like the rest of the stem is somewhere underground.

Very interesting comments from Gileno. What interested me most is about Attalea x texeirana, and the Embrapa investigations. Here in Costa Rica ,many areas are too dry to cultivate Elaeis guineensis, but Attaleas grow perfectly in most of the country and Central America.

[Gileno Machado]

All Attaleas have this special look when juveniles, like the rest of the stem is somewhere underground.

Very interesting comments from Gileno. What interested me most is about Attalea x texeirana, and the Embrapa investigations. Here in Costa Rica ,many areas are too dry to cultivate Elaeis guineensis, but Attaleas grow perfectly in most of the country and Central America.

Hi José Maria,

I guess A. x teixeirana is a hybrid between the tall A. phalerata and the small A. eichleri. I've been looking for some seedlings of this palm for a while now, the only hybrid I have in cultivation is A. x voeksii, involving funifera and humilis. The TV show I've seen described the highly productive properties of that palm, already being planted in some areas of pre-amazonic northeast. I've heard that Attalea, in general, don't transplant well and even seedlings may take a long time to adapt to the ground.

Here's a young Attalea oleifera I've been growing from seed: