so does backfilling with too much soil amendments stop root growth ?

[trioderob]

what is the latest on the subject of soil amendments?

I have sandy california soil, if I mix in too high a % of organics, potting soil etc,,,

will the roots of my palms not expand into the native soil?

[Tyrone]

You can never have too much organics in a soil.

What do you mean potting soil??? Potting mixes are not designed for the ground, they're designed to make an artificial tub drain freely in a nursery for 18-24 months. I wouldn't put a potting mix in the ground unless you wanted the root area to stay on the dry side, as the surrounding soil will capillary every last bit of moisture out of the potting mix.

If you're on sand, you just keep adding organics. The organics will slowly dissapear over time, as the microbes break it down into things your plants can eat, and of course in sand a good proprtion will leach down through the profile of the sand. So continual year after year additions of rich mulch to the surface will keep the soil alive and create a humus layer and content in the soil. Once you have humus you have rich soil, and because it overlays sand in your case, you'll have brilliant drainage as well. The feeder roots will get into the humus, and humus loosely locks onto nutrients preventing the leaching you get in pure sand. Your palms will know this and follow the humus. Your palms will also easily put there roots into your sand, but these will be mainly for support.

Hope this helps.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Mats]

what is the latest on the subject of soil amendments? I have sandy california soil, if I mix in too

high a % of organics, potting soil etc,,, will the roots of my palms not expand into the native soil?

Phil, from Jungle Music, addresses this question in his new article - "How to Plant a Palm Tree".

Phil writes, "The question arises as to whether one should add amendments to the native soil in the

garden prior to planting. This is a topic that even the experts don’t agree upon..."

You can read the entire article and his position on the topic HERE.

[ariscott]

I never put any potting soil... some 'experts' think it is a good idea, but I don't. I just mulch it... by mulching, it will introduce organics into the soil, hence it will improve the soil. I can see the difference between the soil which has been mulched and the part which hasn't. It is a big difference...

Regards, Ari

[osideterry]

I've gotten very specific dealing with my soil. I dig down only until I hit the "hard stuff" and then stop. Some places that is 12" deep, some places it's 6" deep. I dig the hole only 20% wider than the pot diameter. Then I surround the palm with palm and cactus soil from a big box store. If the palm is now higher than the surrounding soil level, I mound up with more palm and cactus soil and mulch heavily.

This works well with 5 gallon sized palms, which is all I'm planting these days.

[Jose Maria]

Very nice article from Jungle Music, I enjoyed reading it.

There is hardly an amount of too much organic amendments in a sandy soil.....unless maybe ....too much for the wallet....

In sandy soil I would worry about it being too dry in summer.Amendments can help a bit , but still some tropical palms have died in the city park here during the dry season....( Cyrtostachys and Licuala grandis)

[Tyrone]

Osideterry, you have what is called an impeding layer. If you can't dig in it, water and roots etc can't penetrate it. Therefore using a potting mix in your planting holes would be advantageous from a drainage point of view, as the water will always sit on your impeding layer and not drain away quickly. Opening the mix up with a potting mix will definitely help a lot.

The Jungle Music article was excellent, and the best I've ever read.

I still stand by my belief that in a sandy soil no amount of amendment is ever enough. In my area in SW Australia, the soils are some of the oldest in the world. The sand most of the Perth suburban area sits on are up to 1 000 000 yrs old and totally leached of anything nutritious. If you didn't upgrade the soil at all, the palms would not grow much at all, and require ten times the amount of water than they otherwise would with good soil amendments. You can tell who has not upgraded there soils much. The palms are stunted, yellowed and often sunburnt and scorched.

Best regards

Tyrone

[MattyB]

Robert,

I don't think you have to worry about the roots not penetrating your native soil due to how much ammendment you use, especially if it's sandy. It all depends on your climate, soil type, and how you're going to water. The more organics you mix into the backfill, the faster the water will go into it, like a bucket that's set flush with the ground. This is good for me in areas that need hand watering because I can deliver plenty of water to the roots quickly without it running off to the surrounding areas. For ammending large raised planters, keep in mind that the more organics you use the more the level is going to sink down as it breaks down. This can be quite a bit and cause a problem with smaller palms and plants because you can never raise the soil level back up without burying your plants. Vigorous, large trees and palms seem to anchor in deeper, quicker and stay at the same level while the soil sinks around them, making adding more mulch/soil easy. For this appication I've used organics from grass clippings, tree trimmings and other non-nitrogen fixed organics and have found that ample fertilizing is needed for the first year or two and plants tend to grow slower while the soil is trying to find it's perfect microbe balance. In the end, no matter what you do, mulch the crap out of the top surface. That's gonna be your most valuable additive.

[Kris]

Dear Robert

you are lucky to have sandy soil in your garden while i have only clayee soil in our garden...And its hell working in it ! And i live in hot wet coastal region,so some plants tend to rot & die duriong our rainy season(we call that here winters) !

here is a link you can visit when you have time to spare..

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=4793

But my suggestion is the trial & error method,since what works for one will not work for the other.Their is no common soil formula at all ! But orgaincs(sea weeds)dried leaf mulch,organic mannure & humas all works wonders on coarse sandy soil.

Love,

Kris

[Phil]

There's an interesting thing about planting a palm (or anything) that often people tend to forget. That is: "Will the water actually get into the rootball of the plant you're putting into the ground". The problem is this: you have a palm with a fairly dense rootball. Say it has lots of roots and was in a dense mix such as clay. You then put it into the ground and ammend the surrounding soil. When you water the basin, the water takes the path of least resistance. Sometimes this is totally around the rootball itself. You'd be giving lots of water but none of it goes into the rootball. This is very common with plants that are dug from elsewhere and then put into your garden with the finest of amendments used. In time, the plants roots will penetrate into the new soil. But, in the short run, the plant may become dehydrated.

This is the issue at the heart of arguments over amendments. Regardless of what you do, it is always best to let the hose do a "slow trickle" at the base of your plant such that water has to penetrate the rootball.

Many of the initial "failures" of newly planted palms are secondary to dehydration of the rootball.

And, btw, thanks for the feedback on our article.

Phil

[DoomsDave]

There's an interesting thing about planting a palm (or anything) that often people tend to forget. That is: "Will the water actually get into the rootball of the plant you're putting into the ground". The problem is this: you have a palm with a fairly dense rootball. Say it has lots of roots and was in a dense mix such as clay. You then put it into the ground and ammend the surrounding soil. When you water the basin, the water takes the path of least resistance. Sometimes this is totally around the rootball itself. You'd be giving lots of water but none of it goes into the rootball. This is very common with plants that are dug from elsewhere and then put into your garden with the finest of amendments used. In time, the plants roots will penetrate into the new soil. But, in the short run, the plant may become dehydrated.

This is the issue at the heart of arguments over amendments. Regardless of what you do, it is always best to let the hose do a "slow trickle" at the base of your plant such that water has to penetrate the rootball.

Many of the initial "failures" of newly planted palms are secondary to dehydration of the rootball.

And, btw, thanks for the feedback on our article.

Phil

Great article, Phil! Very nice and thorough, instructive without ever being dogmatic.

(Hmm. What happened to guy's lower legs in the pictures of removing the rootball? )

[Tyrone]

There's an interesting thing about planting a palm (or anything) that often people tend to forget. That is: "Will the water actually get into the rootball of the plant you're putting into the ground". The problem is this: you have a palm with a fairly dense rootball. Say it has lots of roots and was in a dense mix such as clay. You then put it into the ground and ammend the surrounding soil. When you water the basin, the water takes the path of least resistance. Sometimes this is totally around the rootball itself. You'd be giving lots of water but none of it goes into the rootball. This is very common with plants that are dug from elsewhere and then put into your garden with the finest of amendments used. In time, the plants roots will penetrate into the new soil. But, in the short run, the plant may become dehydrated.

This is the issue at the heart of arguments over amendments. Regardless of what you do, it is always best to let the hose do a "slow trickle" at the base of your plant such that water has to penetrate the rootball.

Many of the initial "failures" of newly planted palms are secondary to dehydration of the rootball.

And, btw, thanks for the feedback on our article.

Phil

Very good point Phil. Most people don't realise this. I always flood my newly planted palms for about a month after planting and always make a depression to collect the water around every palm. IMO they just can't get enough water at this stage especially in summer. I also tell my clients to hand water there newly planted palms often, to get a can of beer and make an evening ritual of hand watering the new garden during the warmer months. Many enjoy this great diversion after a day at work and their plants thrive.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Moose]

Organic amendments are most beneficial in my opinion, especially in sandy soil. They help lower PH & give fertilizer something to "stick" to rather than readily leaching through. Heavily mulching aids in water retention in the soil and promotes earthworms inhabitating the area. I don't believe I have found an unthrifty palm where earthworms are present.

Best regards,

Ron.

[FRITO]

The newly published article detailing transplanting and planting palms - courtesy of UF IFAS extension

says:

"There is no scientific evidence that amending backfill with organic matter or other materials is beneficial to palms (Hodel et al., 2006). While adding commercial preparations of mycorrhizae and other beneficial microbes to the backfill is a common practice, Broschat and Elliott (2009) concluded that the only benefit derived from these products was due to the fertilizers that were added to some of the products and not to the microbes themselves"

about 2/3 of the way down: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/EP001

Edited July 3, 2009 by FRITO

[Phil]

I highly recommend that each individual try different techniques for himself. I.e, plant one without backfill, another with backfill with soil ammendments. And, then do it some more. All too often articles are written and books published by people who actually are not growing plants themselves (or at best information derived from a small number of plants studied in one growing environment). You'll only know what works best for you if you experiment a little. And, once you get your answer, you'll know what works best for you. If you find that feedling your plant soap suds and lollipops makes the plants grow more quickly, I guarantee you that someone will do an experiment to prove you wrong. But, if you are convinced it works, keep using your concoction.

Phil

[Tyrone]

The newly published article detailing transplanting and planting palms - courtesy of UF IFAS extension

says:

"There is no scientific evidence that amending backfill with organic matter or other materials is beneficial to palms (Hodel et al., 2006). While adding commercial preparations of mycorrhizae and other beneficial microbes to the backfill is a common practice, Broschat and Elliott (2009) concluded that the only benefit derived from these products was due to the fertilizers that were added to some of the products and not to the microbes themselves"

about 2/3 of the way down: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/EP001

If they were doing there experiments on 1000000 yr old Perth coastal plain sands, they'd fine the exact opposite. Not amending the soil in these soils means almost zero growth.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Moose]

I highly recommend that each individual try different techniques for himself. I.e, plant one without backfill, another with backfill with soil ammendments. And, then do it some more. All too often articles are written and books published by people who actually are not growing plants themselves (or at best information derived from a small number of plants studied in one growing environment). You'll only know what works best for you if you experiment a little. And, once you get your answer, you'll know what works best for you. If you find that feedling your plant soap suds and lollipops makes the plants grow more quickly, I guarantee you that someone will do an experiment to prove you wrong. But, if you are convinced it works, keep using your concoction.

Phil

Phil - I agree!

[FRITO]

the amount of backfill people use on small potted palms is very neglegent to the huge amounts of native soil surrounding the palm, the backfill for the first year might sustain some better growth but eventually the palm will be working in the native soil unless you plant in granite like MattyB (where effetively its like a potted palm)

Tyrone, I beileve you, your soil seems like a challenge.

for the record, I compost and throw as many organics anywhere and whereever I can in my garden. I dump some good 'mix' into a hole when I am planting if I have some on hand. I add plain old sand when planting serenoa repens. I think about eah palm and it soil in habitat when planting.

[sonoranfans]

Interesting to see the diversity of experiences on this subject. Obviously a one size fits all treatment isnt going to work. As a researcher I well understand how the initial conditions can determine the result of the research project. A simple example might be planting syagrus in high pH clay soils, it would be a terrible idea not to ammend there. Syagrus dont like high pH as they cant absorb the micronutrients in that kind of soil. Another example might be brahea armata in wet clay soil, adding sand makes great sense as they thrive in better drainage soil. And yet throwing in a trachy in poor drainage, high pH clay soil seems to be just fine, they do well. Few palms will grow best in pure sand, ammendments make sense there as well. I think the species of palm comes into play as well as the soil type, irrigation rate, and the climate(the evapotranspiration rate). I suspect that the florida research may work well in the florida conditions it was tested under, but my results are different.

Edited July 3, 2009 by sonoranfans

[Moose]

I believe the Florida soils need to be amended. I think their study was done on common landcsape material. When you bring home that rare or unusual species, it would be insane not to amend the soil. First and foremost is to get the palm to survive the first two years. Stressing it with high PH native soil does not make sense. As Matt stated, mulch like crazy - this will help to enrich the soil as it breaks down over time.

Ron.

[mjff]

There's an interesting thing about planting a palm (or anything) that often people tend to forget. That is: "Will the water actually get into the rootball of the plant you're putting into the ground". The problem is this: you have a palm with a fairly dense rootball. Say it has lots of roots and was in a dense mix such as clay. You then put it into the ground and ammend the surrounding soil. When you water the basin, the water takes the path of least resistance. Sometimes this is totally around the rootball itself. You'd be giving lots of water but none of it goes into the rootball. This is very common with plants that are dug from elsewhere and then put into your garden with the finest of amendments used. In time, the plants roots will penetrate into the new soil. But, in the short run, the plant may become dehydrated.

This is the issue at the heart of arguments over amendments. Regardless of what you do, it is always best to let the hose do a "slow trickle" at the base of your plant such that water has to penetrate the rootball.

Many of the initial "failures" of newly planted palms are secondary to dehydration of the rootball.

And, btw, thanks for the feedback on our article.

Phil

I'm quickly becoming convinced this is the problem I'm having with the field grown Washingtonias I get from S. TX. My soil is very porous and a 6" deep well filled with water around a palm will be completely drained in a matter of minutes. The rootballs are a very dense clay, and despite soaking them weekly they look horrible and a high percentage eventually die. I pulled one a couple of days ago and the soil around the rootball was very wet, but the rootball itself was pretty dry, certainly not moist enough for the 100+ degree temperatures we have been having. These tend to die from the bottom up (older fronds die first, then spear, then spear rots and pulls). I think I am going to switch from flooding them to some drip tube wrapped around the base over the rootball.

Anybody have an idea why my CIDP's are dying? I have 6 with 4' CT that I planted almost 4 months ago. They looked fine initially, then the center fronds died, followed by the collapse of the still green and healthy looking outer fronds. The dead center fronds are still tight, and when I dig into the rootballs prior to watering they are still moist. What is going on with them?

BTW Phil, that Mule Palm I got from you has finally started to push a new frond after all the fronds except the oldest two died.