Trachycarpus fortunei and wagnerianus measurements...

[Kostas]

Hello!

I am interested in measurements of the leaf blade and petiole length(seperately) and trunk width(with the fibers on,just pressed a little with your hands to rest better on the trunk) of Trachycarpus fortunei varieties(stating which one is ),Trachycarpus fortunei(Naini Tal) and Trachycarpus wagnerianus It would make a great comparisson chart and will help me id mine too

Thank you very much in advance!

[kristof p]

good idea Kostas but there is so much variation within the cultivated fortunei in Europe/America's in leaf size, petiole length, etc...that it would not help you much.

the naini tal has a thicker trunk than fortunei (when grown in the same conditions). Nigel had nice pictures of his fortunei var naini tal trunk versus 'normal' fortunei trunk.

maybe he wil post them here?

as for the recent 'new' variatons like the 'var tesan', this is an interesting one but i gues there are no larger plants than seedlings out of China.

if you are interested in those variations there is a discusion goeing on on the EPS forum.

http://www.palmsociety.org.uk/forum/topic....amp;topicid=315

(it's free but you have to register yourself)

[Kostas]

Thank you very much for your reply Kristof!

I now that unfortunately and thats why i thought that having as many measures as possible would do the trick

Nigel's pictures would help very much though,especially if there is something for scale I am quite confused i must say with the 4 of them,T. wagnerianus,T. fortunei ''Chusan'',T. fortunei ''Tesan'' and T. fortunei ''Naini Tal'' I am sure i dont have wagnerianus as mine are very big in leaf size,more than 2feet just the leaf blade,but i am not sure if what i am seeing here in Greece planted is T. fortunei ''Chusan'' or T. wagnerianus because they are evry small in leaf size but also in trunk diametre too.So i dont know what to compare mine too So measurements would help a lot as its something everyone can do and come up with the same results

As for the Tesan,i saw photos of large,trunking ones at Coldplant's site...Isnt there any chance some to have been imported in Europe?Of course the var. winsan is out of question for mine so wouldnt help me much but would still make a good comparisson chart

[Kostas]

I bought my Trachycarpus fortunei as Chamaerops excelsa,the old name,i dont know if that helps in determining from which nursery in Europe mine come from...My local nursery said it bought them with this name and so they sell them that way

I would like to add that it would be good to state the conditions the plant has been grown in so as to know if from example a thin trunk stems from shade or a very fat one from full sun

P.s.:I read the discussion you linked me too

Thank you very much in advance!

[kristof p]

Hi Kostas,

i am sure you have the cultivated 'european' fortunei or 'chusan' form if you have doubts about some fortunei in greece beeing wagnerianus just push the leaflets down with your hand. i'm sure fortunei leaflets would bend down while if you do this with wagnerianus leaflets they would not bend down but the whole leaf wil bend down, wagnerianus leaflets are much much stiffer than fortunei leaflets...

another way to identify wagnerianus (altough not al of them could be identefied by this) is a sort of needle on the undersides of the hastuela, on older leaves this is almost always gone but on the new leaves you sometimes see this, fortunei never has that 'needle' on the underside of the hastuela...

the thin trunks you see on fortunei palms for sale are because they cut the leaves to soon wich results in a faster growth of the trunk but also results in a thinner trunk. if you dont give them lots of water the trunk is also thinner. T. fortunei trunks are very fat in our climate and i think this is because they grow in a much wetter climate than in southern europe. you see this with lots of palm. for example a queen palm that recives lots of water has a much thicker trunk than one who grows in a dry climate....

give your Trachycarpus lots of water and they wil grow a much fatter trunk and will look very healthy...even in my wet climate i gif them lots of extra water (sometimes 15L/30L a day during spring and early summer!)

Edited February 18, 2009 by kristof p

[Kostas]

Thank you very much for the identification info Kristof

It might be than mine are better grown than others...However,these had a transplant from what it seems last year ,as they were looking awfull and had only 1-2 leaves during the past summer i saw them,and so consequently got less water and more heat than they would like...Will this make a slim trunk section? Or can i save it from that with ground planting and lots of water?I want the trunk look good when all fibers fall

Thank you for the explaination about the thin trunks I understand that What would you think would be a leaf blade length too big for T. fortunei ''Chusan'' and big enough for a Naini Tal? Also,is the commom ''european'' T. fortunei the Chusan variety? Is there any chance my T. fortunei being hybrids with other Trachy species?They have about 1,60-1,70m trunks so that you get an estimate on the age

Also,would fortunei mind sitting just 40-60cm above the ground water table?

Here is a link to another Trachycarpus thread of mine with photos of my palms

Thank you very much in advance!

[kristof p]

Dear Kostas,

indeed i think the european fortuneis are the Chusan variety. T. fortunei has been cultivated in Europe for more than 150 years and i think a lot of the fortuneis today are ofsprings from seeds from cultivated fortunei in southern china (Chusan, were it was first discribed and i think also most seeds that were send to europe in those days came from cultivated fortunei around that place). in the beginning they thought this was a tropical palm

there is much variation between the fortunei of today and we can only gues if this is because fortunei is just so variable by nature or that once there were some natural ocuring variations (like var winsan, tesan) that were restricted to certain areas. it could be that once there were variations restricted to certain area's but fortunei has been cultivated for centuries in china and in time they could have been mixed together in cultivation, in that case i think the many differant forms we see in the fortueni of today could be because certain genes from such a variety is dominant and this could be the reason why some look totaly differant or have threads of more than one 'variety'? it is possible to have a fortunei with 360°C leaves out of a 'normal' fortunei seed...

i'm definitely no expert on such things but i like to think about it. i could be totaly wrong and the above is total bulschit...or not

other opinions would be great to hear....

[kristof p]

Kostas,

"Also,would fortunei mind sitting just 40-60cm above the ground water table? "

they wil love it, certainly during your hot summers.

[Kostas]

Thank you very much for your thoughts Kristof

Whatever of the 2 cases,the Chusan would be a more unmessed with palm as its not for example Winsan which is something ''special'' lets say...The nursery that grew mine up must only be cultivating 1 T. fortunei variety as they call them Chamaerops excelsa and dont mention or know any variety...So they most probably got some T. fortunei somewhen in the past and have continued producing palms from these(i guess )What would you think? Also,which country's nurseries you find have more of a tendency to retain the old name for fortunei?

Good to hear they will like it because this was where i wanted to plant them Part day sun for now plus lots of ground water should make them look great in a few months!

Do you have any input regarding a possible trunk scaring from transplant shock and about Naini Tal leaf length?

Thank you very much in advance!

[kristof p]

also here lots of 'non specialized in exotic plant' nurseries still sell T. fortunei as Chamaerops exelsa (when wil they learn).

i think a lot of the big nurseries in southern europe who grow fortunei on a large scale still sell fortunei as Chamaerops...i have no idea why this is???

as for leaf sizes of fortunei, adult leaves vary between 90cm wide up to 1m30cm wide(there are smaller ones and i gues also taller ones but i think most are between those figures). i have no idea how tall the leaves of sp naini tal grow since i dont have one that has adult leaves but it is said they are normaly bigger than those of 'normal' fortunei...

i dont think you wil see 'stress' related damage on your fortunei palms who are recently transplanted.

the trunk of a Trachycarpus that was planted with a thin trunk stays that thin but al new trunk growth is fatter than the trunk they already had when planted. so the bottem part of the trunk of such a palm is thinner than the above part of the trunk (the new growht).

[Kostas]

Thank you very much for the info Kristof!

I will ask and see where mine originate from when i go to Pyrgos this weekend

They probably just never care to buy a new book with names... When i have a look at the books nurseries here use for Palms,there are only 5 species in there,4 of which we have common in Greece and the Erythrea genus(now Brahea) we dont have at all...You take an idea on the age of the books with the Arecastrums,Chamaerops excelsa and such...

90 to 1,30cm would the leaf blade width or total leaf length together with petiole?I think mine are somewhere there if you mean just leaf blade width but will measure every part of mine this weekend when i will be there

Good to hear you dont think i will see ''lean year'' growth rings from the transplant event.They are not very recent transplants though,this July i saw them in the awfull condition descriced and must have been imported from June or May and till this September,werent looking too good...After that,they grew some leaves and are what they are now So you think that now they will make up for the possible stunting and grow their young trunks to be of correct width where they were left behind a bit?I dont know if i expressed what i wanted to say correctly but i ask if the rings of trunk they grew in the bad months,will be slimmer,making a slim ring on the trunk with before and after normal trunk diametre

Thanks again for answering my questions,will get back with measurements of mine

[kristof p]

Kostas,

"90 to 1,30cm would the leaf blade width or total leaf length together with petiole?"

i'm talking only about the leaf blade width...petiole lengt varies also much amongst differant individuals grown in the same conditions.

palm trunks have no growthrings like broudleaved trees! they do have leafscars and maybe you wil see that the distance between the leafscars wil be les when growing a fatter trunk...

strange you have not a larger amount of species in your much warmer country. it's amazing what we can find in our gardencentrums in northern europe. Brahea sp, Dypsis sp, Archontophoenix sp, Trachycarpus sp, Phoenix sp, Livistona sp, Prithchardia, Wodyetia, Butia sp, Jubaea, Parajubaea, Sabal sp, etc...

[Kostas]

Thank you very much for your reply Kristof!

I counted the blade width of 1 of my Trachycarpus fortunei and it falls in the measurements you gave me,its a few cms(5-20cm,couldnt be exact at the time) more than a meter in diametre I couldnt measure my other Trachycarpus unfortunately as all its leaves are beat up and shreded(from tying up and strong winds months before ) great deal and there wasnt a single measurable leaf I like the wind beat up look at Trachys more than their ''perfect'' look so i dont complain too much!But i can say,tying the leafs overdo it if not done carefully(and the seller wasnt very good at that when he trasported them to me...).They may grow bigger leafs though now that they are in the ground with good amended soil and lots of water(hint,hint! ).

I learnt the origin of my Trachycarpus too and was fascinated i can say,didnt new we do such things here too,they are seed grown in GREECE by them!!! Dont know their seed origin unfortunately...Maybe the next thing to ask...Had already asked too many question and didnt dare ask that too at the same visit

So...Chusan?Any info about the Naini Tall maybe?Or being seed grown here makes for no such chance and are(were,as these are many years old...)only imported as grown up plants for Naini Tal?

Next time i am in Pyrgos,i will measure the trunk diametre too and make an accurate one of the leaf blade width

[Kostas]

Yes,its odd but there arent many here that would pay something more for a plant just because its a bit rare...They dont care that much and a good 99% or people here would never learn a scientific name(and they dont!)...To give you a complete palm list of whats availiable palm wise in Athens(places like Rhodes,Crete and a few Peloponessian rural areas have nurseries with little more variety,never been there though as i dont know where they are...just heard of them!),here we have Phoenix canariensis(big favourite,just everywhere!I like too to be honest although i am not planting any due to space limits),Washingtonia robusta(some very tall ones too!),Washingtonia filifera,Phoenix dactylifera,Chamaerops humilis,Trachycarpus fortunei,Trachycarpus wagnerianus,Syagrus romanzoffiana,Livistona chinensis(few speciemen,mainly towards the town center area...Most now meters tall...),Chamaedorea elegans,Howea fosteriana,Dypsis lutescens,another Chamaedorea i saw only once for sale by another palm lover here but have no idea what it was,one of the bamboo like species certainly though...,Licuala grandis(an exciting new addition the last 2 years at most!),a few other special palms sold at flower shops,coming from a certain German company,some different species at time,all clearly and well labeled,these include Areca triandra and Livistona rotundifolia(mine is from that company,bought through a flower shop,no nursery carries these and they are rare to find! ).I also saw a Sabal planted and just flowering at a private garden in Evoia but this was not for sale and i imagine this was brought here as seed from his owner from a country he visited,gerinated and planted there...So definately not availiable,no Sabal availiable here!

These are our only availiable palms localy despite our wonderfull climate I have heard of Archontophoenix and bottle palms being sold in Rhodes and Crete though but suspect,not much more than that there too...

Thank you very much in advance!

[Kostas]

I wanted to add that i do know palms dont have growth rings in the sense Dicots do,i was just refering as growth ring to the ring of trunk between two subsequent leaf scars...Because in Trachys and other palms,they do are rings around the trunk So i was wondering if the ''rings'' formed in the bad condition of their transplant may not reach the diametre or their previous ones made in good days and the trunk have an indent ring in the future at that place...

Thank you very much in advance!

[Ryland]

My T. fortunei has a trunk about 12" in diameter, 3 feet in circumference. Petioles are 3 feet long, leaflets about 2 feet each. It has a mature crown size, gorgeous palm.

[Kostas]

Thank you very much for your reply and the measurements Rylandus!

Sounds like a wonderfull palm!

[kristof p]

hi Kostas,

here's a picture of a group planting of T. fortunei. i find they look great in groups

this picture was taken a week after those palms had seen temperatures around -12/-15...

[Kostas]

Thank you very much for the photo of your beautyfull T. fortunei Kristof!

It looks perfectly at home after those - degrees

Spring is coming...