Anyone using/tried HHO on your vehicle?

[JungleGina]

My BF gave me an HHO (hydrogen) generator for my birthday. I can't give a scientific description but basically it allows your vehicle to partially run on water. Hydrogen gas is extracted from the water and allows the engine to run more efficiently, getting as much as 70 mpg. and have no emissions. I'm all for green solutions and have no bank note outstanding on my vehicle so we'll try it. My father is convinced we're going to blow ourselves up. However, we attended an HHO event and they had cars, trucks, lawn mowers, tractors, pretty much anything on wheels hooked up with these systems. You could see their setups and ask them questions. There were a number of lecturers who spoke at a very high level on the subject. All of this helped ease my mind. An older friend told me these things have been around since the 60s but were suppressed and the techology hidden by Big Auto. Well they're getting theirs now and it's time for these solutions to come forward.

I do not believe biofuel is the way to go for long term because it cuts into our food supply (unless of course it's made from something we don't eat). And hybrids use electricity which in many cases comes from coal. I have big hopes that something like HHO can be made available to the masses as a viable option.

I'd be interested in hearing anyone else's experiences--good and bad.

[_Keith]

  JungleGina said:

My BF gave me an HHO (hydrogen) generator for my birthday. I can't give a scientific description but basically it allows your vehicle to partially run on water. Hydrogen gas is extracted from the water and allows the engine to run more efficiently, getting as much as 70 mpg. and have no emissions. I'm all for green solutions and have no bank note outstanding on my vehicle so we'll try it. My father is convinced we're going to blow ourselves up. However, we attended an HHO event and they had cars, trucks, lawn mowers, tractors, pretty much anything on wheels hooked up with these systems. You could see their setups and ask them questions. There were a number of lecturers who spoke at a very high level on the subject. All of this helped ease my mind. An older friend told me these things have been around since the 60s but were suppressed and the techology hidden by Big Auto. Well they're getting theirs now and it's time for these solutions to come forward.

I do not believe biofuel is the way to go for long term because it cuts into our food supply (unless of course it's made from something we don't eat). And hybrids use electricity which in many cases comes from coal. I have big hopes that something like HHO can be made available to the masses as a viable option.

I'd be interested in hearing anyone else's experiences--good and bad.

I'd be more interested in hearing your experiences with the HHO. Did the 70 mph materialize in your vehicle?

[JungleGina]

It's not installed yet; we just got it. Still waiting for some other parts to come in. I'll keep you updated. Wish me luck!

[BS Man about Palms]

For some time now I've thought Hydrogen cars would be the best answer.

[Rusty on Pine Is.]

Very cool, Gina....let us know how it works.

BTW, how much are these gizmos, and where can they be purchased?

Rusty

[freakypalmguy]

Yes, please keep us updated. Maybe you could post some pictures of the product and it's installation if you have time.

Matt

[tjwalters]

Isn't HHO water?

[bgl]

I don't know anything about the device that Gina acquired, so can't comment on that. But we have a neighbor here, two houses over (on the other side of Steve's house), who invented an actual engine that will run on hydrogen fuel. Can't explain the details, because that's way over my head, but the bottomline seems to be that this is going to be pretty expensive (cost per mile), and with gasoline prices fairly low everything is currently on hold.

[John Case]

My meager knowledge of the reactions of chemistry......

To split the H2O molecule (electrolysis, with an anode, cathode) takes a considerable amount of electric energy but gives you H2 and O2 to recombine.

The reaction (explosion) that reconverts H2 and O2 provides less energy than the energy required to split the molecule.

Unless there is a catalyst to lessen the energy requirement to split water, I do not know how this works.

Do you have to plug the auto in every night to recharge batteries?

It seems to me that no matter the technology, entropy increases, hence you use more energy than you make....

There may be no pollution directly, but energy use still is larger than energy creation.

Is there a physicist in the house?

It seems to me that a direct use of electricity would yield a greater net efficiency with less potential pollution.

[Jeff Searle]

  bepah said:

My meager knowledge of the reactions of chemistry......

To split the H2O molecule (electrolysis, with an anode, cathode) takes a considerable amount of electric energy but gives you H2 and O2 to recombine.

The reaction (explosion) that reconverts H2 and O2 provides less energy than the energy required to split the molecule.

Unless there is a catalyst to lessen the energy requirement to split water, I do not know how this works.

Do you have to plug the auto in every night to recharge batteries?

It seems to me that no matter the technology, entropy increases, hence you use more energy than you make....

There may be no pollution directly, but energy use still is larger than energy creation.

Is there a physicist in the house?

It seems to me that a direct use of electricity would yield a greater net efficiency with less potential pollution.

Damn! you beat me to it.....

[spockvr6]

  Jeff Searle said:

  bepah said:

My meager knowledge of the reactions of chemistry......

To split the H2O molecule (electrolysis, with an anode, cathode) takes a considerable amount of electric energy but gives you H2 and O2 to recombine.

The reaction (explosion) that reconverts H2 and O2 provides less energy than the energy required to split the molecule.

Unless there is a catalyst to lessen the energy requirement to split water, I do not know how this works.

Do you have to plug the auto in every night to recharge batteries?

It seems to me that no matter the technology, entropy increases, hence you use more energy than you make....

There may be no pollution directly, but energy use still is larger than energy creation.

Is there a physicist in the house?

It seems to me that a direct use of electricity would yield a greater net efficiency with less potential pollution.

Damn! you beat me to it.....

Me too.....

As far as I know, it takes more energy IN that one gets OUT......

One has to remember that the energy to drive this reaction has to come from the car's alternator (which in itself also has inefficiencies), and where does the power to drive the alternator come from? The engine of course......

[www.dadluvsu.com]

It does take more energy to create the gas from the energy in fuel in a closed system as described in the laws of thermodynamics... BUT!

consumer vehicles do not utilize fuel with 100% efficiency. the amount of energy used to create the hho gas is considerably less than how much energy is spit out of your tailpipe (or into your catalytic convertor ) unused... when hho is employed the fuel/air ratio can be leaned out to use less fuel and substitute in some hho gas (which BTW compliments unleaded fuels fantastically due to flash/burn temps and charactoristics) to effectively increase MPG's...

the trick (and it is a trick) is to get the right electronics to override your cars onboard computers to be able to dial in your fuel/air mix without making it too lean and tearing up the guts of your engine...

I've built a couple of these and installed them on a dodge ram 1500 and increased real world MPG's about 40% I could probably get closer to some of the fantastic claims made on the internet of doubled MPG's but I don't wanna risk overtuning and blowing up my engine...

oh yeah, and don't forget to fill up your water resevoir often... failure to have HHO in the cylanders when the fuel/air ratios are adjusted is a big no-no

[John Case]

  PiousPalms said:

It does take more energy to create the gas from the energy in fuel in a closed system as described in the laws of thermodynamics... BUT!

consumer vehicles do not utilize fuel with 100% efficiency. the amount of energy used to create the hho gas is considerably less than how much energy is spit out of your tailpipe (or into your catalytic convertor ) unused... when hho is employed the fuel/air ratio can be leaned out to use less fuel and substitute in some hho gas (which BTW compliments unleaded fuels fantastically due to flash/burn temps and charactoristics) to effectively increase MPG's...

the trick (and it is a trick) is to get the right electronics to override your cars onboard computers to be able to dial in your fuel/air mix without making it too lean and tearing up the guts of your engine...

I've built a couple of these and installed them on a dodge ram 1500 and increased real world MPG's about 40% I could probably get closer to some of the fantastic claims made on the internet of doubled MPG's but I don't wanna risk overtuning and blowing up my engine...

oh yeah, and don't forget to fill up your water resevoir often... failure to have HHO in the cylanders when the fuel/air ratios are adjusted is a big no-no

Let me try to clarify what you have just said for my understanding.

While the conversion of water into it component gasses is a net energy loss, it is made up for by increasing the efficiency of the internal combustion reaction and providing a an overall net gain, due to the inefficiency of the engine as built.. is that right?

Thanks.

[spockvr6]

How much HHO gas is actually created by these systems? The answer to this will directly answer the question of how much gasoline they can replace.

[www.dadluvsu.com]

John you got it...

Larry, these systems can be built to create huge amounts of gas, bigger for semi's, smaller for econoboxes... just depends.

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Oh yeah, without all this headache, you can choose to change your driving habits and greatly affect you MPG's... google hypermiling and employ some of those driving strategies. Yes, I usually drive like an old man...

[spockvr6]

  PiousPalms said:

Larry, these systems can be built to create huge amounts of gas, bigger for semi's, smaller for econoboxes... just depends.

Heres a quick test......

If one is driving down the street at a steady speed, and then turns on the HHO generator, will the car immediately pick up speed without changing the accelerator position?

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Without the adjustments to lean out the fuel mix ratio, no. It would indeed actually lose small amount of power as described with the laws of thermodynamics...

[spockvr6]

  PiousPalms said:

Without the adjustments to lean out the fuel mix ratio, no.

WITH the adjustments to a/f ratio (via the O2 sensor trickery).....what would happen?

So....you are cruising along at 50 mph, with a very lean a/f of say 16:1, then one turns the HHO generator on, and all this extra fuel comes in via the HHO gas.

What happens?

I am not being a wise-@ss.....I honestly would like to know.

[spockvr6]

  JungleGina said:

An older friend told me these things have been around since the 60s but were suppressed and the techology hidden by Big Auto. Well they're getting theirs now and it's time for these solutions to come forward.

<<DEVILS ADVOCATE ON>>

Big Auto has been under tremendous pressure, via CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) standards for some time now. If they could solve all their problems and make Ford Excursions get 40 mpg with only some water and 18 gauge wire, why wouldnt they have done it? They would have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

They already have supplemental systems similar to this on diesel engines (an example of this is the BMW diesel which uses supplemental urea injection) in order to meet emissions requirements.

<<DEVILS ADVOCATE OFF>>

Honestly, an invention like this could save the world if it worked.

[www.dadluvsu.com]

valid questions, no wiseguyness sensed...

Best answer I got is... I dunno!

Hypothesis - you were driving your stock 1991 ford festiva with an AFR of 14.7:1 (that is what you drive larry right? ) and had a master switch that you could flip that would turn on the HHO genny and make your AFR change to a predetermined lean mix 16:1 (or higher dep. on generator size) and you maintained your accelartor position, you would not increase speed, you would only use less gasoline to maintain your baseline speed...

[www.dadluvsu.com]

  spockvr6 said:

<<DEVILS ADVOCATE ON>>

why wouldnt they have done it?

Cause the oil barons and the car kingpins all have their hand in each others pockets while the politicians have their hands in everyone pockets? uh... cause the average consumer already can't handle lifting the hood occaisionaly to check fluid levels in their vehicles and they don't want bad reps of "building cars that go boom"?

Sorry, don't wanna stray too far off topic, lets not get into this Larry... a good thread might get erased!

[spockvr6]

  PiousPalms said:

valid questions, no wiseguyness sensed...

Best answer I got is... I dunno!

Hypothesis - you were driving your stock 1991 ford festiva with an AFR of 14.7:1 (that is what you drive larry right? ) and had a master switch that you could flip that would turn on the HHO genny and make your AFR change to a predetermined lean mix 16:1 (or higher dep. on generator size) and you maintained your accelartor position, you would not increase speed, you would only use less gasoline to maintain your baseline speed...

Here is an analogous scenario---

While I am driving my 1991 Festiva at 14.7:1 down the road.....hehehehhhee.....

I have a nitrous oxide tank in my lap which I have plumbed into my intake. I then open the bottle and release the nitrous oxide into the engine.

What happens???

The car will IMMEDIATELY speed up as all that additional oxygen makes it into the engine.

If I am running an "HHO generator" and do nothing but flick a switch to turn it on and start the fuel a aflowin', why doesnt all that extra fuel create the same reaction?

Alternately, if I was watching the a/f ratio, when the "HHO" started flowing and no other changes made, what would I see? Would I see the a/f change at all? This would be ridiculously easy to test.

[spockvr6]

  PiousPalms said:

  spockvr6 said:

<<DEVILS ADVOCATE ON>>

why wouldnt they have done it?

Cause the oil barons and the car kingpins all have their hand in each others pockets while the politicians have their hands in everyone pockets? uh... cause the average consumer already can't handle lifting the hood occaisionaly to check fluid levels in their vehicles and they don't want bad reps of "building cars that go boom"?

Sorry, don't wanna stray too far off topic, lets not get into this Larry... a good thread might get erased!

Some very very simple tests could be performed to prove or disprove this "HHO" stuff. The fact that they havent been performed, shouts too loudly that something is amiss!

And....didnt someone offer $1M to anyone who could prove it worked?

[Neofolis]

Apparently there are already a few hydrogen pumps in filling stations in California. These are used to fuel cars powered by a hydrogen fuelled battery. Cost, economy, range and performance are fairly similar to that of petrol/gasoline powered cars, but cost is expected to come down with mass production. The advantages are the abundant supply of hydrogen, virtually no mechanical parts to go wrong and the only exhaust bi-product is water vapour. I guess you could add that it runs very quietly as an advantage, although there have been suggestions that the lack of noise could be a threat to pedestrians and other road users. Top Gear (UK motoring show) described the car they reviewed as the most important car for 100 years.

I'll see if I can find a clip on YouTube.

[spockvr6]

  Neofolis said:

Apparently there are already a few hydrogen pumps in filling stations in California. These are used to fuel cars powered by a hydrogen fuelled battery. Cost, economy, range and performance are fairly similar to that of petrol/gasoline powered cars, but cost is expected to come down with mass production. The advantages are the abundant supply of hydrogen, virtually no mechanical parts to go wrong and the only exhaust bi-product is water vapour. I guess you could add that it runs very quietly as an advantage, although there have been suggestions that the lack of noise could be a threat to pedestrians and other road users. Top Gear (UK motoring show) described the car they reviewed as the most important car for 100 years.

I'll see if I can find a clip on YouTube.

This is not at all the same thing as the "HHO" systems being sold on the internet.

[spockvr6]

  PiousPalms said:

Sorry, don't wanna stray too far off topic, lets not get into this Larry... a good thread might get erased!

Yes....I am going to bow out of this thread.

My point in anything I stated was to avoid people spending $ on this type of stuff without actually understanding "how" it "works".

[www.dadluvsu.com]

  spockvr6 said:

Here is an analogous scenario---

While I am driving my 1991 Festiva at 14.7:1 down the road.....hehehehhhee.....

I have a nitrous oxide tank in my lap which I have plumbed into my intake. I then open the bottle and release the nitrous oxide into the engine.

What happens???

The car will IMMEDIATELY speed up as all that additional oxygen makes it into the engine.

If I am running an "HHO generator" and do nothing but flick a switch to turn it on and start the fuel a aflowin', why doesnt all that extra fuel create the same reaction?

Alternately, if I was watching the a/f ratio, when the "HHO" started flowing and no other changes made, what would I see? Would I see the a/f change at all? This would be ridiculously easy to test.

Larry, If you had a bottle of Hydrogen gas in you lap and injected it, you would see a boost in speed/output (or you'd likely blow your rings and I would laugh loudly while proclaiming snarktastical remarks)... but that defeates the purpose, you've added another expensive to make and store fuel source to the equation...

The point of the HHO generator is to maximaize the efficiency of you gasoline your already going to burn while only adding water, a common easily obtainable cheap energy source.

If you just flicked on the generator (without affecting AFR) you would actually lose power (probably not noticable in real world scenario) due to thermal loss in seperating H from H2O

alternately, if you watch AFR the hydrogen was injected you car's computer would sense to much "air" in the cylander and would compensate by dumping fuel into the cylanders...

[www.dadluvsu.com]

If you still don't understand lurk around here for a while http://hhoforums.com/

there are people there that are more eaten up with it than me and get huge MPG's

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Oh yeah... just let me reiterate that point.

HYPERMILING

some of the tips are stupid and dangerous, but some are good tactics for helping to make your fuel (and brakes primarily, but numerous other parts that get beat on in passenger vehicles) last longer...

[junglegalfla]

Bigger MPGs great but what are the safety hazards. What would happen in an accident??

[Neofolis]

  spockvr6 said:

  Neofolis said:

Apparently there are already a few hydrogen pumps in filling stations in California. These are used to fuel cars powered by a hydrogen fuelled battery. Cost, economy, range and performance are fairly similar to that of petrol/gasoline powered cars, but cost is expected to come down with mass production. The advantages are the abundant supply of hydrogen, virtually no mechanical parts to go wrong and the only exhaust bi-product is water vapour. I guess you could add that it runs very quietly as an advantage, although there have been suggestions that the lack of noise could be a threat to pedestrians and other road users. Top Gear (UK motoring show) described the car they reviewed as the most important car for 100 years.

I'll see if I can find a clip on YouTube.

This is not at all the same thing as the "HHO" systems being sold on the internet.

Yes, sorry Larry, I realize it is not the same, but it does use an HHO fuel cell, but obviously no internal combustion engine and the hydrogen is supplied directly from a hydrogen tank, rather than having to be extraced from water or whatever. I can't see how it would work with an internal combustion engine, but it could work with an hybrid electric motor, assuming the hydrogen extraction was efficient enough. I don't really see the point though. In the UK, people can get their car converted to run on natural gas, which is no more economical, but is considerably cheaper. That seems like an easier and more proven option.

[John Case]

  PiousPalms said:

Without the adjustments to lean out the fuel mix ratio, no. It would indeed actually lose small amount of power as described with the laws of thermodynamics...

Is it fair to assume that the warranty on these vehicles (if still under warranty) would be voided if by chance something went wrong inside the engine or the transmission?

[amazon exotics]

Larry, can you post a pic of your turbo beast on the dyno? Sometimes using fuel is fun.

[www.dadluvsu.com]

  bepah said:

Is it fair to assume that the warranty on these vehicles (if still under warranty) would be voided if by chance something went wrong inside the engine or the transmission?

Oh yeah, bigtime voidance...

[gsn]

  junglegalfla said:

Bigger MPGs great but what are the safety hazards. What would happen in an accident??

I'm with Bren!

Didn't they stop filling blimps/airships with HYDROGEN after the Hindenburg disaster, explosive? just sayin

Okay I obviously know nothing about this subject, carry on without me! But I'm pretty sure nothing I do to my old Ford Explorer is going to make it get any better gas milage? If I didn't have to tow a skiff around I wouldn't have the damn gas guzzling thing!

[_Keith]

In the late 80s I had a Trans Am with a 455 and nitrous oxide. Now that was fun. It was a gas toilet and the accelerator was the flush handle.

And for you detail folks, before you say it you are right, the Trans Am did not come with a 455. It shipped with the TA 6.6 or 400. However, a trip to the junk yard netted a 455 from an earlier year Grand Prix. Built the engine completely in my garage and did the swap. And an earlier year Trans Am also netted the 160 mph speedometer too, which trust me, I needed at the time.

Oh, if only I had the money back that I put into cars earlier in my life.

[www.dadluvsu.com]

  gsn said:

  junglegalfla said:

Bigger MPGs great but what are the safety hazards. What would happen in an accident??

I'm with Bren!

Didn't they stop filling blimps/airships with HYDROGEN after the Hindenburg disaster, explosive? just sayin

The truth of the matter is that some of them could be damaged in an accident and a very small quick flash fire could occur, most likely such a quick flash that it wouldn't get anything hot enough to ignite anything other than the gas... and when the device is damaged to that point, the water would leak out and gas production would stop immediately. The best generators I have seen produced (not commercially) are created with lexan and can take a pretty good smashing before they leak.

The amount of volitile gas we are talking about for an average production vehicle is small... maybe 1-2 liters per minute, not exactly a blimp (funny, I had the same thought when I started looking into this ). Also the gas dissapates extreemely quickly compared to say... hmmm, a liquid. So the point is, the 10-16 gallons of liquid gasoline you carry "safely" is far more dangerous that the small amout of H gas produced by the generator.

[JungleGina]

PiousPalms--thanks for backing me up on this and giving the scientific part. I am no scientist. I think it is something that needs to be explored and I am willing to get off my bum and try rather than just sit around and complain about what's wrong in the world.

The bank does not own my vehicle so no warranties will be voided. I may do with it what I will.

I drive my SUV everyday with no real understanding of "how it works". This does not preclude me from buying it or make me a fool for doing so. And I am quite the lead foot so the idea of hypermiling isn't for me. However, this device is not intended to make the vehicle go faster.

My unit was purchased from alternatenrg.com; other info can be found at energybuilders.net. which will give more specifics than I can provide. As far as safety goes, what Pious described is exactly what I understand from the geek conference I went to on the subject, which BTW was fascinating because it was not dumbed down at all.

Also the idea that you must lean out the engine to get the benefit is not true (although many people do it). The speaker at the event I attended said that if you install an electronic control switch and DO NOT bypass the car's computer, then you can see/adjust/fine tune your specs and still use the car's sensors to monitor flow, etc. He did not recommend leaning out the engine because of possible negative effects to the engine from doing so.

Again, I'm no scientist or automechanic so I can't answer specific questions. I appreciate the input from those with experience.

I'll keep you updated once they are installed but for now here's a pic of the components.

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Looking forward to hearing your results!