Sabal uresana

[freakypalmguy]

Hi all,

I germinated Sabal uresana seeds from RPS about 1 year ago and had excellent results. I have since started to see most showing signs of some sort of distress. Some have damped off all the way. I'm not sure if this is too much water or heat, not enough water, a pest, or a nutritional problem. The new growth comes out fine, but then this happens. I have closely inspected them and there are no pest to be found (that I can see) on any of the fronds. I have them in Sunshine mix #4 (Canadian Sphagnum peat moss, coarse grade perlite, gypsum, Dolomitic lime, and a wetting agent. ). Does anyone have any idea what I'm doing wrong? This is one of my favorite palms and I would hate to kill them all.

Thank you,

Matt

[PalmGuyWC]

Matt,

Move some of them outside and slowly transition them to full sun. S. uresana is very cold hardy. It looks like to much moisture to me and not enough air circulation. Sabals are so damn slow when their young. I'm sure you could find some 5 gal size in your area and jump ahead about 7 years from where your seedlings are. They like full sun and plenty of room. S. uresana grows to be a large palm.

Dick

[Mark Heath]

Matt,

I would put them in 3 gallon pots and do what Dick said! I have grown many Sabals from seedlings and i have allways givin them plenty of room for the roots.

Good luck!!!

[PalmatierMeg]

I second Dick & Mark. I have Sabal sp. seedlings that size in 3 gallon pots & they are already sending roots out the bottom. They need elbow room.

[freakypalmguy]

Thank you Dick, Mark, and Meg. I will pot them all up to at least a three gallon, but I think I might have enough five gallons to do them all. Is bigger better? I'm thinking about putting some straight in the ground?

Matt

[Mark Heath]

Thank you Dick, Mark, and Meg. I will pot them all up to at least a three gallon, but I think I might have enough five gallons to do them all. Is bigger better? I'm thinking about putting some straight in the ground?

Matt

Even better Matt!!!!

I'm happy to see some California guys growing Sabals!!! Well, as some call it,, Sablahhhh!!!!!

[freakypalmguy]

Thank you Dick, Mark, and Meg. I will pot them all up to at least a three gallon, but I think I might have enough five gallons to do them all. Is bigger better? I'm thinking about putting some straight in the ground?

Matt

Even better Matt!!!!

I'm happy to see some California guys growing Sabals!!! Well, as some call it,, Sablahhhh!!!!!

Sablah's are one of my fav's. Thanks for the help Mark. I am thinking of doing an area with nothing but Sabal's. Some uresana, some palmetto, and some causiarum. I also have a pumos, a blackburniana, a mexicana, and a riverside in the hood. I'm all about the Sablahhhhhhhhhh........ :-D

[rockos82]

I have a few dozen habitat collect seedlings the community tray in a 15 gal look better than ones in 1 gal. The deeper the container the better they look...

[Urban Rainforest]

Matt, I have 2 Sabal Uresana that were about the same size as yours when I got them from Jeff Marcus about 2 years ago. I planted both in one gals. but I soon put one into a 5 gal. The 5 gal. one is now 3 times the size of the one gal. and very blue. Sabal Bermudana is another nice one and don't forget to plant a Mauritiiformis my personal favorite. Good luck!

Stevo

[gyuseppe]

I have Sabal uresana, is out in the garden, never had problems.

[PalmatierMeg]

Thank you Dick, Mark, and Meg. I will pot them all up to at least a three gallon, but I think I might have enough five gallons to do them all. Is bigger better? I'm thinking about putting some straight in the ground?

Matt

Even better Matt!!!!

I'm happy to see some California guys growing Sabals!!! Well, as some call it,, Sablahhhh!!!!!

I, too, am delighted to see someone who thinks a collection of Sabals worth the space & effort. I feel that way about Coccothrinax. I found some S. causiarium seeds on the ground in a Ft. Myers park last Thanksgiving. Yesterday I potted up all the germinated seedlings because they were filling up their container with roots. They may be slow-growing in general but they are quick, reliable germinators and tough palms. I also have several S. maritima. Next on my wish list is S. mauritiiformis. Its fronds are like no other Sabal.

[freakypalmguy]

Thank you all. So the consensus is bigger pots for sure.

Pictures of Sabals don't do them justice. The first sabal that caught my attention was Gary Woods Sabal (I don't remember which one it was). I remember walking up to it saying, "Wow". It had massive fronds and was beautiful.

The first Sabal I planted here was a uresana. It was the only decent sized one I could find. It was the sellers last one. It was in a deteriorated box and was rooted in the ground. It looked a bit rough and I was unsure if it would make it after removing it from the ground and the box fell apart with not much root ball, but last year it seamed to finally get its legs and it pumped out 3 nice fronds, each larger than the last. I am hoping it does even better this year. Here is a pic of it.

Sabal uresana

I planted out a Sabal blackburniana last year and it has been fairly fast so far. It has a really unique color to it. I have only seen pictures of this one, but it looks like it is going to be a really nice one. It was a a small two leafer 6 months ago.

Sabal blackburniana

I planted this one about 6 months ago as well. I had not heard of it, but it has steadily pushed new fronds and appears to be getting some blue to it.

Sabal pumos

This is the second Sabal I planted. The seller did not know what it was but it is a fast grower and is getting huge fronds.

Unknown, maybe palmetto

[PalmGuyWC]

Meg,

It's odd that you mention S. causiarium seeds collected in a Ft. Myers park, because that is where mine came from too. There was a Flordia biennial in 1981 when Paul Drummond was president of the Palm Society. It's been so long that I don't exactly remember the location, but there was a lone S. causiarium growing in a park or a vacent lot. Paul pointed out to me that the palm was isolated and the seeds would probably come true, so I collected some.

From those seeds I now have a beautiful S. causiarium with about 8 feet of woody trunk. I have several Sabals, but the S. causiarium has the largest fronds and is one of my favorites. It comes from Puerto Rica, but it's surprisingly cold hardy in my Northern Calif climate. It's been nipped in a few severe winters, but for the most part it comes through fine. It has the thickest trunk of any of my Sabals, and the fronds are about 8 feet wide.

Dick

[PalmatierMeg]

Meg,

It's odd that you mention S. causiarium seeds collected in a Ft. Myers park, because that is where mine came from too. There was a Flordia biennial in 1981 when Paul Drummond was president of the Palm Society. It's been so long that I don't exactly remember the location, but there was a lone S. causiarium growing in a park or a vacent lot. Paul pointed out to me that the palm was isolated and the seeds would probably come true, so I collected some.

From those seeds I now have a beautiful S. causiarium with about 8 feet of woody trunk. I have several Sabals, but the S. causiarium has the largest fronds and is one of my favorites. It comes from Puerto Rica, but it's surprisingly cold hardy in my Northern Calif climate. It's been nipped in a few severe winters, but for the most part it comes through fine. It has the thickest trunk of any of my Sabals, and the fronds are about 8 feet wide.

Dick

Hello Dick,

Might be the same palm because the one I saw was ancient. I wasn't sure the seeds would still be viable but all of them sprouted. Don't know what I'll do with all those seedlings of this huge palm. The park is basically a small palm garden about 1 block from the Caloosahatchee River. The palms are all plaqued and some are quite unusual. I picked up one mystery seed the size of a baseball. I posted photos but no one could reach a consensus on whether it was an aborted coconut seed, Attalea or what? But I checked the baggie yesterday & the thing is germinating!!! I got a deep pot waiting for it.

[freakypalmguy]

Meg,

It's odd that you mention S. causiarium seeds collected in a Ft. Myers park, because that is where mine came from too. There was a Flordia biennial in 1981 when Paul Drummond was president of the Palm Society. It's been so long that I don't exactly remember the location, but there was a lone S. causiarium growing in a park or a vacent lot. Paul pointed out to me that the palm was isolated and the seeds would probably come true, so I collected some.

From those seeds I now have a beautiful S. causiarium with about 8 feet of woody trunk. I have several Sabals, but the S. causiarium has the largest fronds and is one of my favorites. It comes from Puerto Rica, but it's surprisingly cold hardy in my Northern Calif climate. It's been nipped in a few severe winters, but for the most part it comes through fine. It has the thickest trunk of any of my Sabals, and the fronds are about 8 feet wide.

Dick

Hi Dick,

Is there not picture of your Sabal causiarum in your travel log? I could not find one.

Matt

[PalmGuyWC]

Matt,

I searched through my travel log, and I guess there is no pic of my S. causiarum. It's kind of jamed up with other palms, hard to photograph, and one that is crowding it is S. uresana. I had no idea that S. uresana would grow so large. Actually, S. uresana is kind of an ungainly palm. The fronds bend eaisly and it looks kind of untidy, while the S. causiarum has stiffer fronds and looks much more presentable.

When I started my garden, I had nothing but sunshine, but now, years later, my neighbors Oaks to the west of me have grown up and I get a lot of shade in the afternoon. I suspect my sabals would be more compact if they got more sunlight. I planted most of the Sabals in the same area.

My largest sabal is S. Riverside, but it's planted in my front and gets lots more sun. It is my largest Sabal and has grown much faster than the others. I grew it from a seed and it has about 24 feet of woody trunk, and it is loaded with seeds every year, but they are hard to germinate. It's a beauty.

It seems you and I have similar climates. Our night time lows are often the same, or close, but your daytime winter temps run about 10 degrees warmer than me. I have a clay soil, and I can't grow any of the African cycads as it's to wet and cool here in the winter. I expect our summer time temps are about the same. It gets hotter than hell here in the summer and I usually get more damage from heat than cold.

Dick

[freakypalmguy]

I found a pic of your Sabal causiarum Dick, on the Northern Cal Palm Society web site. I can see what you mean, this baby is packed in there.

I have two Sabal riverside that Oceanside Terry gave me. One we dug from his garden the other he had in a one gallon and had two strap leaves. The one we dug has never skipped a beat and the strap leafer is going pinnate. They are both in full sun. Actually everything I have is in full sun as I have no canopy yet. I also have some of your Sabal riverside seeds that were given to me by board member Patrick. I'm glad you mentioned they are difficult to germinate, as none have as of yet. All other Sabal seeds that I have germinated have been easy so I thought maybe they were bad. Any advice on germinating these?

I think our climates are very similar. I believe the only difference is that you get more influence from the coast, ie: fog and overcast that holds your temp down. The coastal fog and overcast is usually held out of Temecula by the mountains that border us on the South, West, and East. We are half way between the ocean and Palm Springs so we get about a halfway climate.

Here is a map, the red defines the mountain ridge and the yellow is Temecula/Murrieta and the arrow is on my location. You can see Temecula is really nestled in up against the mountains.

[MattyB]

Matt, while I agree that you can go ahead and pot it up to get it to grow better, unless you modify the potting mix and/or growing conditions, you might end up having that same spotting problem. I can't tell if it's a fungus or what happens after scale or mites suck on the leaves and they dry out, but you've got to address that. Do you know how to spot mites? They're very small and until someone showed me what to look for I didn't know I had them. Plus, if I don't have my glasses on I can't spot them or their evidence. Why do you have such a complicated mix? Just stick them in some Palm/Cactus mix (throw in some perlite if you have it) and let them go. The peat moss and dolomite are only gonna make the mix heavier/wetter and Sabal will grow it's roots better in a drier mix in my experience. Soak 'em thoroughly and don't be afraid to let them dry out between waterings.

[freakypalmguy]

Matt, while I agree that you can go ahead and pot it up to get it to grow better, unless you modify the potting mix and/or growing conditions, you might end up having that same spotting problem. I can't tell if it's a fungus or what happens after scale or mites suck on the leaves and they dry out, but you've got to address that. Do you know how to spot mites? They're very small and until someone showed me what to look for I didn't know I had them. Plus, if I don't have my glasses on I can't spot them or their evidence. Why do you have such a complicated mix? Just stick them in some Palm/Cactus mix (throw in some perlite if you have it) and let them go. The peat moss and dolomite are only gonna make the mix heavier/wetter and Sabal will grow it's roots better in a drier mix in my experience. Soak 'em thoroughly and don't be afraid to let them dry out between waterings.

Thank you Matty,

To tell you the truth, I have never seen a mite. And I am not sure what the damage would look like. I have seen scale a bunch on my Cycads and Palms. I have figured out how to combat that. I had a problem before on my Trachycarpus wagy seedlings that I posted and you recommended a systemic (I forget the brand). I bought some and have kept a batch mixed up in a one gallon sprayer. I give them a spray maybe once every other month. So I think I might have the bug thing under control. The waggy's are recovering really nicely now. There's almost no damage visible.

I have wondered about that mix. The reason I buy it is that it comes in large bales wrapped in plastic. It is convenient, that's why I use it. I have thought about having a truckload of mix from a soil company delivered, but that is too expensive. I would really like to make my own mix in a large quantity so I always have it on hand. I can get compost from a local company for cheap, and large bags of pearlite. Is the sand from Home Depot and Lowes OK for a planting mix? What ratio should I mix this. Like 25%compost + 25%sand + 50%perlite? I know I have seen mixes here before. Is there an all around combo that works for palms and cycads combined with maybe a little variation for plants that really don't like to be wet? My soil here is mostly DG, so I usually toss a bit of compost and some pearlite in my planting holes and mix with the native soil.

I appreciate all the feedback Ladies and Gents,

Matt

[FRITO]

I would also guess to much water (possibly heavy soil mix). possibly lack of air circulation as well.

I have small S. causiarum that are similar size and same style pots as yours. The mix has sphagnum peat in it. Its heavier than what I would like and as time goes on ( a year now) its gets mucky and doesnt drain as well. We have cool wet winters and my S. causiarums newest leaf/spear is pale yellow almost translucent.

as result to my heavy mix and lack of air circulation and the cool wet winter about half of mine have bud rot and spear pull so they are in intensive care now.

[PalmGuyWC]

Matt,

In the first place I see your at 44 F and I'm 52 F.....go figure. your 300 miles south of me. It doesn't make sense. Thanks for your great map. I didn't realize your so far inland. I'll save your map, because I'm not familiar with all the locations in S.Calif. Belive me, you live in prime growing palm country. It's difficult up here, but I make do.

Totally off topic...but......Your a pilot and I was one. I'm expecting visitors shortly, one a Captain on Emerites, and a hot F/A from the UK. The Capt. just upgraded and he is flying the long range B 777. It's a 19 hour flight from Dubai to SFO. I don't expect we will have a long evening. They must be wasted. I'm taking them to a nice Mexican resturant near by. Brian said it would be a novality after living in Dubai.

More later about palms.

Dick

[freakypalmguy]

Matt,

In the first place I see your at 44 F and I'm 52 F.....go figure. your 300 miles south of me. It doesn't make sense. Thanks for your great map. I didn't realize your so far inland. I'll save your map, because I'm not familiar with all the locations in S.Calif. Belive me, you live in prime growing palm country. It's difficult up here, but I make do.

Totally off topic...but......Your a pilot and I was one. I'm expecting visitors shortly, one a Captain on Emerites, and a hot F/A from the UK. The Capt. just upgraded and he is flying the long range B 777. It's a 19 hour flight from Dubai to SFO. I don't expect we will have a long evening. They must be wasted. I'm taking them to a nice Mexican resturant near by. Brian said it would be a novality after living in Dubai.

More later about palms.

Dick

Dick,

We have a bad frost here this morning, The car door was almost frozen shut. I think this one is going to do some damage. 29.8F

How was dinner? A hot Uk flight attendant. Sounds like fun. I can't imagine they were to chipper after 19 hours in the air. Although they were "dozing for dollars" during part of the flight so they might have been fairly well rested. I've thought about doing some of the long haul stuff, but when I hear about things like a dengue fever outbreak at one of our destinations and other possible sickness, as well as needing armed guards to get you to the hotel at another, it makes me appreciate flying right here at home. I go to San Juan, PR tomorrow. That's about as international as I get for now.

Take care,

Matt

[PalmGuyWC]

Matt,

The temp. here at daylight is 32.2 F and a very white frost. This is the lowest Temp. I've had in Feb. and my low for the season was 27 F back around Xmas.

Your right, the Capt. had a relief pilot, so they get some snooze time on such long flights. The flight attendent was absolutely KNOCK OUT georgeous. She could be a model but not an actress. She is from Liverpool and I couldn't understand a word she was saying. She puts Liza Doolittle to shame. I just nodded my head up and down and said, "Yes, yes, yes." She must have thought I was an idiot. They have a 3 day layover, (in San Mateo) so not a bad trip for a junior Capt. on the 777.

I was based in Geneva back in the late 80's and flew to Paris, then to Athens. We were always escorted from the airplane, through the terminal, to our bus by 4 huge Greek armymen with rifles. Then they would dump us at the bus and leave. They never spoke a word or made eye contact. I was more worried about them than any possible terrorist.

Sorry folks, way off topic, but I do have a Sabal uresana and it's covered with frost right now, but they are very cold hardy.

Dick

[MattyB]

Matt, do you have an evergreen nursery near you? They have something called "planters mix" for like $15/yard. It's an ammended topsoil basically. Get a few yards delivered, buy some large bags of perlite and mix up some batches in a cement mixer.

[freakypalmguy]

Matt, do you have an evergreen nursery near you? They have something called "planters mix" for like $15/yard. It's an ammended topsoil basically. Get a few yards delivered, buy some large bags of perlite and mix up some batches in a cement mixer.

I'll check the phone book. Thanks for the tip. That's a great price.

[southlatropical]

I have two small seedling of S. Riverside that I moved from their 1gal into some 3gal back in Nov. When I went to move the pots (about a week ago) I was surprised to see a big fat tap root hanging out the bottom of the pot about 6". A very large root for such a small seedling. I think this fall I will move them into some 6gal plastic buckets which I drilled full of holes in the bottom. Makes for a very sturdy and deep pot with a handle to carry it with. This year they are home to some citrus trees that will go out in the fall. For my potting mix I just used some quality potting soil and added a little ironiteplus, bone meal, and pieces of a fert spike (MG with microelements) that I chipped off with some pruning shears. Then I watered with root stimulator. They are healthy as could be.

[freakypalmguy]

Well I finally re-potted all my S. uresana seedlings. All of the roots at the bottom of the containers looked desiccated. they all hit the bottom of the nine inch liners and were air pruned, but then performed slowly after that. All except this one that I potted up about a month and a half ago in to a tall Steuwe and Sons pot. I figured I should change the soil in this one as well and this is what I found.

You can see where the root mass stopped at the bottom of the old container and that is all new fresh white roots shooting downwards.

Obviously, you all nailed it with the advice to pot up. They are all in 3 gallon containers as we speak.