Chamaerops var Cerifera

[PalmGuyWC]

This may be the wrong place to post this but.....Not that any of us are happy about it, but the east coast of the USA has just experienced some very cold temps, and this might be the first time some palms have been cold tested. I'm curious to know from those who got down in the teens, how C. var Cerifera faired. I'm wondering if it's any more cold hardy than the green ones. C. var Cefifera comes from a higher altitude and it's somewhat further inland in Morocco, so it should be more hardy. Any reports?

Dick

[tropicalb]

Dick...

it's one of the few palms I have growing that I never worry about outside. Mine have seen below 20F for six nights in a row during the '07 freeze and never skipped a beat.

[gyuseppe]

yes, no problem and cold tolerant.

[PalmGuyWC]

Thanks guys, but I want to know just how low they can take it. The green ones will take it down to 15F (-9C) with no damage, or even lower. I know the temps. got pretty low in Georgia and the Carolinas and I just wonder if anyone had a green and a Cerifera growing under the same conditions for comparison. I'm talking about low teens or single digits.

C. var Cerifera is one of the nicest introductions in recent years. The silver compares with Bismarkia and Brahea armata.

Dick

[Cycadcenter]

In the 2007 freeze ours had three nights at 16F and suffered no damage

Bruce

[Jon T]

Hi Dick! I had a small silver one in the ground for less than a year before '07's three nights of 14 degrees at my place. It did lose the new spear on two of the heads, but it had no other serious damage and recovered completely by summer.

It may be just as tough as the green ones, or tougher, after they have some size and acclimatization, since the silvers come from much higher and more inland than the greenies.

This silver one, incidentally, has quadrupled in size in two years, and seems to be growing faster than the regular model. Only "problem" is it seems to put out WAY too many pups, which I have to keep murdering to let it channel its growth into the four stems I'm keeping! ;-D

[freakypalmguy]

Hi Dick! I had a small silver one in the ground for less than a year before '07's three nights of 14 degrees at my place. It did lose the new spear on two of the heads, but it had no other serious damage and recovered completely by summer.

It may be just as tough as the green ones, or tougher, after they have some size and acclimatization, since the silvers come from much higher and more inland than the greenies.

This silver one, incidentally, has quadrupled in size in two years, and seems to be growing faster than the regular model. Only "problem" is it seems to put out WAY too many pups, which I have to keep murdering to let it channel its growth into the four stems I'm keeping! ;-D

Interesting Jon, I would have suspected that it would have more cold tolerance than that. Maybe the fact that it had been in the ground for such a short period of time has something to do with it. In the 07' freeze I had a Jubea pull a spear. It had been in the ground only 6 months. It has since recovered and is one of my fastest growers. It saw around 17 to 19F which is warmer than what it should be able to tolerate.

Matt

[kahili]

I have a small one that is only about a ft high, but lots of leaves that I planted maybe 18 months ago, and we had two cold nights, one was 15 degrees and one was 11 degrees. I had wrapped a small blanket around it with a black bucket over that, so not much protection. It looked ok when I uncovered it, but I think it might not look so good in a month or so. It may be that it was so small, it seems to be a slow grower. I have it out in full sun-maybe it likes/needs some shade? All the green ones that I have, that are much bigger did fine, but they also were well protected-so not sure if this info really helps you much or not.

[iamjv]

Kahili, when you say "the green ones were well protected", how were they protected??? Any pics of your cerifera? Jv

[kahili]

iamjv, I have a lot of heavy duty frost blankets (the thick ones) that are dble thick and 8' wide by 30-40' long, depending on how long I had cut them, that I folded over to 4'wide and then wrapped the palms (many times over to use up the length),and then covered that with the same widths and lengths of the heavy duty thick weedblock. thats a lot of insulation!

I have these blankets/weedblock for covering annuals, that I put out in the spring to protect from frost/freezes , so I didn't want to cut up the lengths to shorter pieces for the palms. It took a long time, wrapping all the palms with these long pieces ,although I don't think any of the palms showed any sign of cold damage, so maybe that much insulation did the trick. I also left these on for a week, because of the cold that we had afterwards and snow forecast-of which we got 8", which always makes me nervous that it will get too hot in there given that black heats up so much, but the days were forecast to only in the 30's, and they seemed all ok.

I have been too lazy to learn how to post pictures on this website, but I should learn how. I have a busy week coming up, but maybe after I will take a bunch of pictures of all the palms in the ground and show them. Although I always like to see pictures of other peoples palms, I tend to think it would be boring to see mine-maybe because I see them everyday!

[Kev Spence]

This is my friends Chamaerops his name is Gerrit from Maastricht, Limburg in the Netherlands.

Cerifera, cover with plastic, sleeping bag, plastic and snow.................

This palm went to -19 C/-2 F and following night of -15 C/5 F and many nights of -6 C/ 21 F

These temps fried every leaf on his 2 Mt and 4 Mt Trachycarpus fortuneii.

The snow came down at a temperature of only -1C and within 6 hours the temps went down to -15C.

Glad the UK does not go down that low I have 2 Chammys here in my garden and both go down to -6 C/21 F every year no protection no problems.

This is one cold hardy little palm for sure.

[Kev Spence]

Here are my 2 one of which I have left as a solitary trunk the other has 6 suckers that are starting to trunk now............any more pics out there.

[Al in Kona]

While Chamaerops var. Cerifera has certainly proven to be able to endure very cold temperatures, it also has proven itself to grow well for me in our tropical climate. Many times palms from cooler temperate zones or very high elevation areas do not thrive here or simply do not grow for us. However, C. var. Cerifera does. Why some palms do and others do not is a bit of a mystery sometimes.

Anyway, I wanted to share the fact that this beautiful silvery small palm does well here too as you can see in my pic below.

[Matt]

Hello, I also live in the Netherlands. My Chamaerops H. Cerifera also went to -15 C with day temps of -6 C and shows no damage at all, in fact its one of the best looking palms in my garden after this disaster cold. It only had a roof over it so it was kept dry, I think that's very important. Otherwise there might be a chance of rot in center but even in those cases I have experienced that Chamaerops species have a good chance of recovering, even when the spears are pulled out because of rot. I think Cerifera is more cold tolerant then the green form but also likes to be kept more dry in the winter.

Matthijs

[gyuseppe]

Chamaerops in the italy, there are in all the gardens!

[Vic]

Heres mine, it took -9c a couple of weeks back with a rain shelter and was not touched, so in my opinion its as hardy if not more hardy than the normal chamaerops.

[PalmGuyWC]

Thanks to all.......I think my question has been answered. C. var Cerifera must be more cold hardy than the green ones, but keep them dry with extreme cold expected. That would be easy enough to do. Just throw a tarp over them to keep them dry. Minus 15 C. (05F) is pretty darn cold.

Thanks for all your inputs.

Dick

[DoomsDave]

Egad, you Dutchmen rock!

THAT's pushing the envelope on zonage . . . . .

[PalmGuyWC]

While on the subject, has anyone seen C. Cerifera available in the general nursery trade? The only ones I've seen are at Palm Society sales, or at nurserys that specialize in palms. They are unique enough that I would think the general public would be interested. I would imagine they would show up first in Florida in the general trade.

Dick

[tank]

While on the subject, has anyone seen C. Cerifera available in the general nursery trade? The only ones I've seen are at Palm Society sales, or at nurserys that specialize in palms. They are unique enough that I would think the general public would be interested. I would imagine they would show up first in Florida in the general trade.

Dick

Picked up one at a wholesale nursery here in town (Gainesville) a few years ago, they had plants up to 15 gal.

Link to the nursery.

http://www.tropictraditions.com/our_products.html

http://www.tropictraditions.com/pictures/p...0Fan%20Palm.JPG

Have seen some larger ones planted around town.

Saw some Chamaerops for sale at Home Depot about a month ago that we just about as silver as any that I've seen, although they weren't being sold as such.

[ricky]

hi dick chamaerops var cerifera have now been on general sale in the UK for about 3 years or so from what you would call a big box store and available from nurseries for about 8 plus years its a great little palm and they come with all the different frond types just like chamaerops humilis

[PalmGuyWC]

Thanks Ricky and Tank,

I guess it stands to reason that C. cerifera is showing up in Europe first since thats where they come from.....well almost, just across the water. I'm surprised they aren't more available in the USA, since there are lots of blooming ones here in the USA now. Mine seeeded for the first time last year, and they produce huge amounts of seeds. I shook pollen over the female flowers and I think every flower produced seed. I guess it just takes time for a new palm to become available in general horticulture.

Dick

[daxin]

Dick,

Monterey Bay Nursery in Watsonville has this one available in 1g and 5g for $8 and $25 wholesale. All Bay Area nurseries can special order from them so theoretically this is not a rare palm anymore. However, a lot of nursery buyers are just not willing to go beyond what they have been selling for years. In any case, I will try to remember to look for interesting leaf forms next time I visit them.

[PalmGuyWC]

Hi Daxin,

It's a pitty that the nurserymen in the Bay Area aren't more imaginative. They sell the same old stuff. It's no wonder we don't have more palm variety in the Bay Area. The only nursery I've seen lately that has some unusual palms is the Flora Grubb nursery in San Francisco. The palms are pricey, but at least they are available. They feature such things as Ceroxylon, Hedyscepe, Howeas, Parajubaea, and many other rare palms that grow in the Bay Area. I picked up a beautiful speciman Cham. adscendens there with 8 plants in a container for a very good price. It's a neat place to visit and they have a coffee bar there too. Golden Gate Palms in Richmond has some nice palms too. Gary Gragg, the owner, was just featured in Garden Design magazine, and he will be on HGTV soon with his own garden show. He's mad about palms.

I guess we will have to wait a few years until we see C. Cerifera showing up on the landscape.

Dick

[Kailua_Krish]

There were some in our home depot (Ocala, FL) last year during the summer. They were in the larger containers and cost like $125 I think.

-Krish

[PalmGuyWC]

Krish,

I don't know how large the containers were, but $125 sounds a little pricey for Fla. where everything grows faster. I planted two 5 gal size about 3 years ago. and now they are 6 feet wide. They have more than tripled in size in 3 years. Mine are getting bushey, so I need to trim them down to just a few trunks. Mine have viscious black thorns on the petioles. They seem to color up better when grown in full sun. Mine get the full, blasting hot afternoon sun. I have noticed variation. One of mine has very stiff fronds and the other has thin blades with very weepy fronds. Fortunately one is a male and the other a female.

Dick

[Don Little]

Dick,

Everything I have read shows them to be at least as cold hardy as the green form if not more taking down to 5F and possibly even colder. I too seem to notice that in full sun the color seems better than when grown otherwise.

Don

[Morabeza]

Hi Daxin,

It's a pitty that the nurserymen in the Bay Area aren't more imaginative. They sell the same old stuff. It's no wonder we don't have more palm variety in the Bay Area. The only nursery I've seen lately that has some unusual palms is the Flora Grubb nursery in San Francisco. The palms are pricey, but at least they are available. They feature such things as Ceroxylon, Hedyscepe, Howeas, Parajubaea, and many other rare palms that grow in the Bay Area. I picked up a beautiful speciman Cham. adscendens there with 8 plants in a container for a very good price. It's a neat place to visit and they have a coffee bar there too. Golden Gate Palms in Richmond has some nice palms too. Gary Gragg, the owner, was just featured in Garden Design magazine, and he will be on HGTV soon with his own garden show. He's mad about palms.

I guess we will have to wait a few years until we see C. Cerifera showing up on the landscape.

Dick

Aloha Dick,

This is a fascinating thread, and a delight to see how hardy this variety is proving to be in both cold temperate and tropical environments.

Kew Monocot checklist lists Chamaerops humilis var. cerifera as an invalid synonym of Chamaerops humilis var. argentea. Are we holding on to the older name out of fondness for it or is there more to the story that I am ignorant of?

While the the nurserymen in the Bay Area could always be more imaginative, in my opinion, they are more progressive, daring and imaginative then probably most any other area of the US, not including spots along the southern CA coast & S Florida. Here in Hawai'i on O'ahu island the retail selection on the whole is pitiful and even deeply shameful, considering the incredible things we could grow and the wealth of source material at our fingertips. I take my hat off to the Bay Area growers.

I believe that one of our members, Jason Dewees, is principally responsible for getting Flora Grubb Nursery to carry the unusual palms you reported on.

[JasonD]

While Chamaerops var. Cerifera has certainly proven to be able to endure very cold temperatures, it also has proven itself to grow well for me in our tropical climate. Many times palms from cooler temperate zones or very high elevation areas do not thrive here or simply do not grow for us. However, C. var. Cerifera does. Why some palms do and others do not is a bit of a mystery sometimes.

Anyway, I wanted to share the fact that this beautiful silvery small palm does well here too as you can see in my pic below.

There's a gorgeous big specimen at the Lyon Arboretum in a very rainy spot on O'ahu. And I recall seeing some nice ones in Costa Rica at the palm farms on the Biennial itinerary.

[JasonD]

After the winter of 2007 I spoke with a nurseryman in Centralia, Washington, who said his 'Ceriferas' (Chamaerops humilis var. argentea) endured windy 5F better than his green Chamaerops. I wonder how they've done this winter. I gather it's been brutal and snowy up there.

Dick, I try to feature ceriferas as much as possible and slowly but surely they'll be getting into Bay Area landscapes. And since they're indestructible here, I suspect they'll be around for a long long time, unlike some of my beloved but water-demanding rarities.

[PalmGuyWC]

Jacob,

It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. I guess "cerifera" stuck in my mind. I will try to call it Chamaerops var argentea in the future, but I wonder if most folks would know what I'm talking about.

Regarding Jason Dewees, I'm sure he's responsible for the rare palms being offered at the Flora Gubb nursery in San Francisco. Jason is much to modest to mention it, but he's featured palms in an 8 page spread in Garden Design magazine in the latest issue. There are some beautiful photographs of palms accompanied by Jason's poetic prose.

A friend suscribed me to the magazine which features outstanding gardens with beautiful photography. I believe it is published bi-monthly and there are usually lots of palm pictures. Congrats Jason for getting the word out there on palms. Gary Gregg, one of our local PS members, also has a page in the same issue. I highly recommend the magazine in case no one has heard of it.

Dick

[iamjv]

I am happy to hear that these palms seem to be able to take extreme lows as I have a couple in the ground that are doing very well and seem to enjoy my rather harsh coniditions.

Have one unique cerifera (aka agentea) that I haven't planted out due to the lack of knowning how cold tolerant these palms are and it was just too rare in appearance to take any chance. The palm has deeply divided and extremely narrow leaflets compared to all other ceriferas I've seen. It's fronds give it a whimsical-airey appearance. I'll try to post a pic later on.... Jv

[PalmGuyWC]

Jv,

I'd say go ahead and plant it. They are tough and will take blistering heat, low humidity, frigid cold, and wind. They do come from a kind of simi-desert area. If I could make a suggestion, manicure it in the container before you plant it, that is, keep it down to a few trunks and remove all the unwanted suckers and trim it up nicely first. It will be much eaiser.

I've allowed mine to become to bushey, and it's going to be a real chore to work on them and thin them out. Chamaerops looks best if kept down to 3, 5 or 7 trunks, otherwise they become a bushey mess.

One of mine is similar to the unusual one you describe with many very thin blades and weepy. I really didn't notice the difference until a couple of years after it was planted. My other one has very stiff, rigid fronds which I think is more typical.

Dick

[edbrown_III]

Dick,

I cant v ouche for C. humilus cerifera but the regular green one has been out during the 85 freeze (.I can name a 1/2 dozen places all over town where these plants were )---

It was at or below 10F all over town. Plants were uneffected. Very high gale force winds during the event. It reminded me of a VA winter. I dont know if the silver cerifera is more cold hardy--- perhaps more wax --- They might be borderline zone 7 plants.

Best regards,

Ed

[iamjv]

Dick thanks for the info... I probably will plant it this coming year. I agree with you that all Cham. look best when they are trimmed neatly and the branching is limited to the space alotted.

Ok here are some pics of that unusual cerifera, take note of the thin leaflets and how deeply cut they are... Jv

[FRITO]

I saw one for the first time planted at a business near downtown. It had somthing on it Black mold or fungus? growing on the bottome 1/2 of the fronds I believe. (maybe high humidity and rain here?) although the ones in hawaii look good? i think air circulation and lots of sun here is a requirement with amended soil.

I just got a smaller one a couple months ago for the first time. my large green one I planted last spring is doing wonderful and will be kept as 3 trunks.

[Vic]

Jam a few of us in the UK have the cerifera's with the deeply cut, if not double cut leaves (have another look at the pic i posted), not sure if they are just freaks or maybe a differnent sp.?

[iamjv]

Vic, yes looks similar as well. The tips of the fronds might be a little stiffer on your plant but I can see the thinly divide leaflets on yours as well. I wonder myself if these aren't a hybrid or even seperate species... Jv

p.s. nicely looking jub as well!

[PalmGuyWC]

Chamaerops is one of the most vairable palms on earth. They come in many different forms but they are all the same species. I have about 7 or 8 different forms growing in my own garden. One is a mutant that doesn't even look like a Chamaerops. I guess it shouldn't surprise us that C. Var argentea (aka Cerifera) comes in different forms too.

This is the reason we should be selective when poaking around a nursery. You never know what you might find among dozens of plants. I once saw a photograph of a Chamaerops that had undivided fronds. It looked more like a Licuala than a Chamaerops.

Dick

[FRITO]

id be interested in seed of this highly divided argentea or cerifera. I sort of have a Chamaerops collection going.

Dick do you have a photo of the full fan leaf form of Chmaerops? (is it like C. 'vulcano'?