Acrocomia totai

[Exotic Life]

Hi,

Does somebody on this forum have this palm, and what are the experiences ? What is the lowest tempeture that can handle this palm ? Dp they have a lot of damage after frosty nights ?

I have read things that this palm can handle unprotected -5C to -7C also 23F to 19F ?

Does somebody have a pictures ?

Robbin

[chris78]

Robbin

I have one, that I had for years. It has never had any problem with cold or frost, but my plant has only say low 20's..... The way it went through the low 20's, I would bet it would be ok in the upper teens.

Its been a fast grower for me, LOVES HEAT AND HOT SUN and fast draining soil....

Mine has flowered for about 4 or 5 years now, but never set seed  

Below is a poor photo of it, I have recently cleaned some of the growth from around it, so now I can take a better photo...which I will in the near future.

[richtrav]

Wow, that's incredibly lush for Arizona!

Just to second Chris, there are old ones in far South Texas and Central Florida that have recovered from 17-20F; the old ones all seem confined to areas that are traditional commercial citrus zones.  Long story short, it's probably just a hair hardier than a queen palm, with a higher heat requirement

[iwan]

Chris,

How old is that totai?  How large was it when you planted it?

[chris78]

Thanks richtrav....Its my jungle, with a mix of palms, bamboo, tropical fruits, ficus and a few tropical timber trees...

iwan.... the A. totai was planted as a small 5 gal plant about 1.5 ft high... its been in the ground for about 10 years now... I got it as a two leaf seedling from Florida.

I also have A. aculeata inside my jungle its larger and alittle faster growing than A. totai.... I have just planted this summer a seedling I brough back from Costa Rica, A. vinifera.... I also have A. intumescens which is from Brazil in an 15 gal pot which I will plant out next spring.

Now we all know these are now the same species ??? which I have to disagree with, because of the significantly different looking they are...IMO

[Exotic Life]

Thanx for the information,

This palm need a lot of heat ? But what is alot of heat, to recover from frost damage, must he need a lot of day's with 30C/86F or is there also a good recovering with a lot of day's between the 20C-25C/68F-72F ??

[iwan]

Thanks Chris,

I have this one on my list.  Just haven't found the right tree yet.

[Scott Mcintosh]

I planted A.aculeata 6yrs (1gal.)ago it has been my fastest grower of any palm. It now has 26ft. of clear but thorny trunk. It took a 26 degree low when it was small with minor damage. It has set seed for the first time this year. It self cleans it old leaves as they fade to yellow. Leaves do break in strong winds.

[Gaston in Argentina]

Agree 100% to Richtrav comment. None word less, neither more.-

[Alberto]

Pic

[Alberto]

Pic of a Acrocomia (the only one) growing in the berm at 45 km from my house. i´ll try to transplant it to my property.

[Exotic Life]

(Alberto @ Oct. 22 2006,10:19)

QUOTE

i´ll try to transplant it to my property.

Hi Alberto,

Your kidding right ?    Thanks for those pictures ...

[Paul S]

Robbin - just to echo what has been said.  

I went through this process about this species a couple of years back - annoyed the hell out of everyone (especially a certain Mr Travis) talking about the totai palm and the fact that it would be hardy enough to grow here in the southeast of England.  I finally tracked down, after many, many hours of digging, a super-cold hardy clone that exists somewhere in central Florida and actually convinced the Palm Centre in England to import FOUR of these rarities into the UK - the plants themselves being shunted about from one Florida nursery to another in order to make it onto the container.  

A happy ending?  No.  They really didn't enjoy their trans-Atlantic trip and had most of the foliage browned off.  But, surely, these are fast growing palms and so would quickly recover from their ordeal?  Again, no.  They struggled to grow, even in the warmth of the hot house at the Palm Centre nursery and, as far as I know, have all died before setting a root into English soil.  I'd say - see how your newly planted queen plam does first, then think about this if you get decent growth on that.

[Neofolis]

Has anyone tried it from seed in a colder climate?  If it doesn't transplant/transport well, that may give a better idea of it's long term chances.  If it is a fast grower, growing from seed sounds like the better option anyway.

[Gaston in Argentina]

Paul.

It could survive in the South of England, the palm is really cold hardy; but it is just that the transplanting is difficult. I have tried many times from seedlings of the north and all time i have failed.- Theres some crazyness around here for Acrocomias for biodiesel (biochemistrys say the fruits have something special for that that not another plant has for this).- Some engineers have tried to bring them from the habitat but 1 of 10 palms (small sized) had transplanted well, none tall.-

With very difficult transplanting and seed germination.- I think the key is to found a good surce with well re-rooted -established palms in pots before to be in the ground.- I think this is also difficult.-

Sure, that with this root sensibility, didnt endured - tolerate the large travel inside a container to Europe.-

[richtrav]

Just on a side note, I just got my grubby little hands on a copy of the newer Palmeiras Brasileiras, and they have 3 Brazilian species listed: aculeata, intumescens, and totai. I really lust after some of their little Attalea and Syagrus

[Paul S]

GAston - don't give me hope - I'd written this one off!  

A friend of mine went to Argentina buying palms and was offered Totai in any size he cared to ask for - but field dug.  I guess, if they were dug far enough in advance, then potted, some might survive?  Or do you know of nurseries that have pot-grown specimens?  Or should I go for the long haul, get some seed, wait the 4 years for it to germinate then try and coddle the things into life over here?

But it is surely the lack of heat, rather than winter cold, that would limit these?... oh, dear, got me thinking about them again - they are such attractive palms!

Rich, what is intumescens like?

[Gaston in Argentina]

Paul.

where queen palms grow sure Acrocomia totai will.- I give hope of course but i think the key is the surce of good palms in pots.- Re rooted plants for 2 years but if from 10, just only one survive just an insane can to invest with small potted Acromias and nobody can to cover the expenses for the died ones.-

For that reason, unfortunately,none nursery here had or has Acrocomias available , i have been searching for all the country without luck, less now with the interest of some for the biodiesel interst who simply are digged off  field palms from Corrientes province.-

So common there, a plague in Paraguay and some areas in Brazil but so difficult to get one cultivated.-

Something positive: There is several Acrocomias in garden of my city and every owner (not palmy persons)

tellme the same story: They were driving in the north

saw a palm, dig them and bring them to their gardens, without special care, had grew etc.-

Another thing, isolated Acrocomias seems dont producing viable seed.-

Some years ago i have sent to Europe wild colected Acrocomias seeds by hundred of thousands.-

Cheers. Gaston

[edbrown_3]

They grow as far north as Deland Florida .. These are the only plants that survived the 80's freezes. These are old trees that possibly say 17 or 18 ° F on 3 occaisions.

I have 3 large ones that survived down to 21 ° F post 80's freezes.  One is from PR one from Mexico and one from southern Brazil.

They grow faster than most but cooler springs and falls they dont have the # heat days to grow fast as central Florida.

Brasileros differentiate Acrocomia into 2 or 3 species depending upon which edition of Book you have.  There 's all kinds of myths about Acrocomia hardiness but the 3 I have are relatively the same in hardiness.

Best regards,

Ed

[Paul S]

Hi Ed - yes, it was those Deland ones I tracked down.  There is a single remaining custodian, it seems, a guy named Doug Keene who Merril put me in touch with.  He still propagates them from time to time.

[cfkingfish]

One palm from John and Faith Bishock's garden in Old Miakka I have never taken a picture of is their A. totai. It has survived low 20s multiple times, as well as a 2 week flood which left it submerged in several feet of water. It now looks great with its upright spines and a fuller crown from the first time I saw it.

[Zac in NC]

(richtrav @ Oct. 23 2006,01:10)

QUOTE

Just on a side note, I just got my grubby little hands on a copy of the newer Palmeiras Brasileiras, and they have 3 Brazilian species listed: aculeata, intumescens, and totai. I really lust after some of their little Attalea and Syagrus

Oooooooooooh, goodie, goodie! Is it a library owned one, or is this going in your own personal library?          

Zac

[Zac in NC]

(edbrown_3 @ Oct. 25 2006,07:40)

QUOTE

They grow as far north as Deland Florida .. These are the only plants that survived the 80's freezes. These are old trees that possibly say 17 or 18 ° F on 3 occaisions.

I have 3 large ones that survived down to 21 ° F post 80's freezes.  One is from PR one from Mexico and one from southern Brazil.

They grow faster than most but cooler springs and falls they dont have the # heat days to grow fast as central Florida.

Brasileros differentiate Acrocomia into 2 or 3 species depending upon which edition of Book you have.  There 's all kinds of myths about Acrocomia hardiness but the 3 I have are relatively the same in hardiness.

Best regards,

Ed

Ed- So is the one from Mexico Acrocomia mexicana? I had thought that one was more tender than totai? WE saw that one in Southern Tamaulipas on the May 2005 trip with Richard and Danny L ( palmazon)

Zac

[Tad]

they are strange, of the 1200 i imported from mexico, about 800 crashed right off the bat, but of those 800 maybe 600 altogether layed there looking like poo and then without warning sent a new leaf up (glad we didnt clean house real quick.) i figure for next years import i intend to go down and take some fungicide and vapor gard with me for some experimentation.

i have them cataloged as acrocomia sp. because of my ignorance as to which is which

tad

[edbrown_3]

Zac,

Astrocomia collected from`Mexico around Playa del Carmen if memory serves me right.  I referenced  Side by side comparisons of  different Acromias collected in different places.  

Paul,  

Doug lives aroound the corner from Acrocomia so he can not progrees and collect seeds most any time.

Best regards,

Ed

[merrill]

(Paul S @ Oct. 22 2006,15:26)

QUOTE

Robbin - just to echo what has been said.  

I went through this process about this species a couple of years back - annoyed the hell out of everyone (especially a certain Mr Travis) talking about the totai palm and the fact that it would be hardy enough to grow here in the southeast of England.  I finally tracked down, after many, many hours of digging, a super-cold hardy clone that exists somewhere in central Florida and actually convinced the Palm Centre in England to import FOUR of these rarities into the UK - the plants themselves being shunted about from one Florida nursery to another in order to make it onto the container.  

A happy ending?  No.  They really didn't enjoy their trans-Atlantic trip and had most of the foliage browned off.  But, surely, these are fast growing palms and so would quickly recover from their ordeal?  Again, no.  They struggled to grow, even in the warmth of the hot house at the Palm Centre nursery and, as far as I know, have all died before setting a root into English soil.  I'd say - see how your newly planted queen plam does first, then think about this if you get decent growth on that.

Hi, Paul:

Nice to communicate with you again.

The A. totai you got through Doug Keene seem to have been introduced by Father Jerome of St. Leo Abbey, one of the founders of the Palm Society.  St  Leo is not far from  Dade City, where these palms were once a common street tree. No one seems to know the origin of these Acrocomia, which are coldhardier, less attractive. and slower than any other Acrocomia totai, or any other Acrocomia, I'm familiar with.  Gainesville is not really cold enough to test them for coldhardiness.  One was killed by 10F, but another survived 15F.  We need more hard freezes [No thank you!] and more expendable St. Leo Acrocomia [ I wouldn't want to waste them if I had them.] to calibrate.

We owe you a debt of gratitude for testing them there, and I apologize for the poor results.

BTW, growing a Queen first might not predict the growth  of the St Leo Acrocomia, and I'm unable to suggest anything else.  Best Wishes, merrill

[malcthomas]

Robbin...

Some years ago, having followed the comments here from Florida members,  I clearly gained the impression that Acrocomia t. was as cold hardy as queens...I have grown hundreds of queens and not lost one to the cold so in the belief that my frost free property was going to be a sitter for one, I put a nice specimen into the ground...it lasted one season before it threw off its mortal coil...

I don't know of any inground ones here in New Zealand..

This experience back then made me realise, well and truly, that you can't go making comparisons with  growing conditions in Florida.

regards....Malcolm

[tank]

Here is a Acrocomia growing north of Gainesville Fl near the town of Lacrosse in a small nursery Merrill directed me to for some hard to find cycads.

Apparently this was collected as a seedling from the right of way along the road in Dade City.

Planted in the late 80s, under a fairly shady live oak canopy.  Has never been protected.  The bananas in the pics are between 10 and 12ft tall.  I would estimate 20' or so of trunk.  This tree has never flowered.

Merrill, thanks for the contact,

Jason

[Alicehunter2000]

Mabe I should try one in Panama City........then I could claim the most northerly.....albeit nearer to the coast.

David

[merrill]

Hi, Jason:

Thank you for posting the two photos  of the Acrocomia at Lacrosse.  It is more attractive than I remember,  deserving better than my comment to Paul.  It is the most attractive St. Leo Acrocomia I remember seeing.  If my memory serves, it is in quite rich soil for Florida.

TX, merrill

Regarding transplanting, the St. Leo transplant from under the specimens at Dade City quite well if the smaller seedlings are taken.  If they are too old and have character leaves, they will have pushed their "tubers" so deep that they usually are cut off.

[tank]

David,

I believe there is one at the Bamboo Farm in Savanah, Ga, although I do not know about its condition, so you may still have a chance.  Also, I would be surprised if there weren't a few to be found in the greater jacksonville area.

Merrill,

This plant appeared to be in very good condition.  I was quite surprised to see it as I had know idea that it was there.  I was rather confused until I saw the spines.   Also, you mentioned that the nursery owner claimed that he had located in a cold pocket.  It probably has benefited from the canopy during the colder nights.

[edbrown_III]

I have 3 large ones here in Jax.. from Puerto Rico, Mexico and Brasil ( Pocone) Here is the one from

Pocone southern Brazil.

[edbrown_III]

Heres one from PR

[edbrown_III]

from PR   A media

[Palmtrader]

I love surrounding myself with palms that possess vicious armoury, (maybe it's an insecurity) but I have tried in vain so far to grow Acrocomia here in Spain. The biggest I have achieved is three feet tall but then they seem to give up. A friend further south in Alicante provence has had the same problem but we have'nt worked out why. For now I just enjoy my many trithrinax which is better than having a guard dog . Vicious!

[merrill]

(richtrav @ Oct. 19 2006,20:49)

QUOTE

Wow, that's incredibly lush for Arizona!

Just to second Chris, there are old ones in far South Texas and Central Florida that have recovered from 17-20F; the old ones all seem confined to areas that are traditional commercial citrus zones.  Long story short, it's probably just a hair hardier than a queen palm, with a higher heat requirement

The Acrocomia in Deland was introduced by nurseryman Leo Nordman, who owned the house on the main drag with the Acrocomia.  Leo graduated from St. Leo, where he got the Acrocomia seed.  St. Leo was a popular college for Florida Citrus growers in those days; this may explain their appearance in these citrus areas.  We imagine Father Jerome, a founder of the Palm Society, brought these particular Acrocomia to St. Leo.

[Paul S]

(merrill @ Nov. 15 2006,23:14)

QUOTE

Hi, Paul:

Nice to communicate with you again.

The A. totai you got through Doug Keene seem to have been introduced by Father Jerome of St. Leo Abbey, one of the founders of the Palm Society.  St  Leo is not far from  Dade City, where these palms were once a common street tree. No one seems to know the origin of these Acrocomia, which are coldhardier, less attractive. and slower than any other Acrocomia totai, or any other Acrocomia, I'm familiar with.  Gainesville is not really cold enough to test them for coldhardiness.  One was killed by 10F, but another survived 15F.  We need more hard freezes [No thank you!] and more expendable St. Leo Acrocomia [ I wouldn't want to waste them if I had them.] to calibrate.

We owe you a debt of gratitude for testing them there, and I apologize for the poor results.

BTW, growing a Queen first might not predict the growth  of the St Leo Acrocomia, and I'm unable to suggest anything else.  Best Wishes, merrill

Hi Merrill

The pleasure is mine, I assure you and - no apologies, please - it was only too kind of you to pass on the link.  Perhaps, all things considered, I should get back in touch with Doug, plead for a seed or two, arm myself with a file and stand back?  

[merrill]

Hi, Paul:

You are to be commended for your determination.  If you try seed, I'd use a deep pot, and extra heat and light.

The method below is the safest for large seed, and gave me an Acrocomia seedling in a couple of months, instead of the typical 4-7 years.

http://www.arborwood.com/awforum....3664968

Best Wishes, merrill

[Zac in NC]

Yes, there is one at Bamboo Farm and Coastal Gardens, and there is an Acrocomia I have seen in the Charleston Garden of Dr DelPorto. Its a pretty nice specimen, but its  in a protected area. He has a fruiting Avocado in his yard as well and a very nice xButiagrus.

Zac

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

Where can a guy get a potted Acrocomia here in NE Florida???