Archontophoenix cunninghamiana growing around 1000 m in NSW

[Tropicgardener]

1 hour ago, john_tas said:

 

Is this map in any way an accurate distribution of  Archontophoenix? The concrete jungle of Melbourne is shown.

 

 

map from this website http://www.oznativeplants.com/plantdetail/Bangalow-Palm/Archontophoenix/cunninghamiana/zz.html

Nowhere near being accurate............. Archontophoenix extends right up to Cape York.

[Tropicgardener]

6 hours ago, Tyrone said:

I think the Eungella A alexandrae's are a more cold hardy alex, although I have never scientifically tested it. They are definitely cool hardy. In winter under canopy those forests are cold in the middle of the day, maybe 12 or 13C at a guess, with not much sun reaching the forest floor. When I was there in 2007 it was cold. The locals said they had −6C up there and it killed their potatoe crops. They can get snow on the forest canopy and the tree ferns burn when that happens. But it's a thick canopy area so I doubt a −6C temp would ever be recorded in thick forest. Out in the middle of a cleared paddock for sure though. We stayed at Finch Hatton Gorge, and although at lower altitude I remember that it must have been around 2C come sun up. We had the reverse cycle air conditioner going flat out at night to keep us warm. During the day once the sun was out it was beautiful and it warmed up to maybe 22C in the sun.

It must be noted though you are talking extremes here............ Yes with a very cold winter there may be the occasional temp down to -5c or thereabouts for a very short window in the year. It doesn't happen that often and the temps generally warm up very quickly after dawn. There is a big difference with -5 at altitude in North Queensland as compared to Southern NSW or Victoria. There are plants cultivated in the Eungella area that would never be seen growing in southern areas.

[tropicbreeze]

That map for Archontophoenix cunninghamiana is an ALA one, part of a citizen science program for which people are encouraged to upload data. They also get data fed in from herbariums/museums/etc. So you get locations uploaded for species which people have seen. You need to look up individual records to see all the details. There's provision for a lot of different data, you'll see that the record (only one) from Melbourne comes from a specimen in the National Herbarium of Victoria and that specimen came from a plant in the Royal Botanic Gardens Victoria collected 9th May 1997. It's recorded as a cultivated plant, not naturally grown. But one thing not provided is the provenance of the plant, it's not recorded where the seed (or plant) originally came from.

The southernmost record is from around Bateman's Bay, NSW, record from the Office of Environment and Heritage Atlas of NSW Wildlife.

There's 2295 records altogether including quite a few on the North Island of NZ. Most of those seem to come from the Auckland War Memorial Museum Herbarium and are recorded as preserved specimens.

[Aussiepalm]

Has there ever been a sighting of  Archontophoenix cunninghamiana in Victoria? Anywhere near the borders perhaps? Funny to think the Livistona Australis made it's way naturally to the Victorian coast near Cape Conran, can't see why the Archontophoenix cunninghamiana couldn't have done so?

Either way they are extremely common in Melbourne and many parts of Victorian gardens and grow very easily here,

Edited August 16, 2016 by Aussiepalm

[Tyrone]

4 hours ago, Tropicgardener said:

It must be noted though you are talking extremes here............ Yes with a very cold winter there may be the occasional temp down to -5c or thereabouts for a very short window in the year. It doesn't happen that often and the temps generally warm up very quickly after dawn. There is a big difference with -5 at altitude in North Queensland as compared to Southern NSW or Victoria. There are plants cultivated in the Eungella area that would never be seen growing in southern areas.

Yes, I'm talking extremes. The average temps come into play with what will actually grow somewhere and lower latitudes always win in that regard.

In regards to that map, if you include cultivated specimens then nothing on the west coast is mentioned. They grow right through the SW corner and up the west coast but the tropics in the NW WA don't really support nice specimens as 46C plus heat and very dry conditions make a ratty Archontophoenix.

 

[Tropicgardener]

1 hour ago, Tyrone said:

Yes, I'm talking extremes. The average temps come into play with what will actually grow somewhere and lower latitudes always win in that regard.

In regards to that map, if you include cultivated specimens then nothing on the west coast is mentioned. They grow right through the SW corner and up the west coast but the tropics in the NW WA don't really support nice specimens as 46C plus heat and very dry conditions make a ratty Archontophoenix.

 

Yes they don't like extreme hot and dry conditions......... When I lived out in Cloncurry our temps would on a regular basis nudge 50C with almost zero humidity. There were a couple of ratty Alexandras in one garden but they were very frazzled...... Here in the coastal tropics Piccabeen Palms, A. cunninghamiana do grow in cultivation (not in habitat) but they don't look anywhere near as good as they do down south. 

[Tropicgardener]

4 hours ago, Aussiepalm said:

Has there ever been a sighting of  Archontophoenix cunninghamiana in Victoria? Anywhere near the borders perhaps? Funny to think the Livistona Australis made it's way naturally to the Victorian coast near Cape Conran, can't see why the Archontophoenix cunninghamiana couldn't have done so?

Either way they are extremely common in Melbourne and many parts of Victorian gardens and grow very easily here,

Yeah it is funny how palms have their natural range despite the fact that they may naturalise elsewhere......... Archontophoenix alexandrae for example is naturalized around Brisbane due to it being commonly planted in gardens there....... However its natural southern limit is at Baffle Creek (between Bundaberg and Gladstone) roughly 500km north.

 

[Tyrone]

3 hours ago, Tropicgardener said:

Yes they don't like extreme hot and dry conditions......... When I lived out in Cloncurry our temps would on a regular basis nudge 50C with almost zero humidity. There were a couple of ratty Alexandras in one garden but they were very frazzled...... Here in the coastal tropics Piccabeen Palms, A. cunninghamiana do grow in cultivation (not in habitat) but they don't look anywhere near as good as they do down south. 

Yes. A cunninghamiana isn't a tropical palm really but more of a subtropical palm. Which is great for me down here. I never saw any in the NT. In fact I can't recall any A alexandrae in Darwin either.

[Tropicgardener]

12 hours ago, Tyrone said:

Yes. A cunninghamiana isn't a tropical palm really but more of a subtropical palm. Which is great for me down here. I never saw any in the NT. In fact I can't recall any A alexandrae in Darwin either.

Being water lovers the long Top End 'dry season' would do them in unless they were irrigated.

[Jonathan]

The map is a reasonable indication of latitudinal distribution for Bangalows, with the obvious exception of Melbourne...!

Someone mentioned above that Bangalows and Alex's grow together at Eungella, but I'm not sure that it's quite that simple. We camped up on the plateau for a few days in 2009 and although we found lots of both species they were never growing together (which doesn't mean they dont - just that we didn't find them together!). The Alex's were generally at slightly lower altitudes and were replaced by Bangalows higher up - which makes sense given the distribution of both species.

Either way, I reckon you'd struggle with them at your place John, at least until you have some sort of canopy. Archs tend to look wind blown and tatty in Tasmania when grown in the open. Probably better off to devote your efforts to Nikaus for now!

Cheers,

Jonathan

Edited August 23, 2016 by Jonathan

[Tropicgardener]

10 minutes ago, Jonathan said:

The map is a reasonable indication of latitudinal distribution for Bangalows, with the obvious exception of Melbourne...!

Someone mentioned above that Bangalows and Alex's grow together at Eungella, but I'm not sure that it's quite that simple. We camped up on the plateau for a few days in 2009 and although we found lots of both species they were never growing together (which doesn't mean they dont - just that we didn't find them together!). The Alex's were generally at slightly lower altitudes and were replaced by Bangalows higher up - which makes sense given the distribution of both species.

Either way, I reckon you'd struggle with them at your place John, at least until you have some sort of canopy. Archs tend to look wind blown and tatty in Tasmania when grown in the open. Probably better off to devote your efforts to Nikaus for now!

Cheers,

Jonathan

You mustn't have looked in the right place Jonathon ............ The 2 species certainly are growing intermingled together at Eungella. At some locations there are more Piccabeens and at other locations more Alexandra Palms but they do intermingle even with crowns touching. Once you loose elevation it the rainforest reverts back to typical tropical North Queensland Alexandra groves.

[tropicbreeze]

On 17/08/2016, 12:05:54, Tyrone said:

Yes. A cunninghamiana isn't a tropical palm really but more of a subtropical palm. Which is great for me down here. I never saw any in the NT. In fact I can't recall any A alexandrae in Darwin either.

Archontophoenix  alexandrae do grow in Darwin, I've got three reasonably tall in my garden, but have also lost a few. They don't look bad but they never seed, the flowers seem to burn. But that's at my place which is inland. Closer to the coast it would be easier for them and they are commonly sold in nurseries here.

[Tyrone]

6 hours ago, tropicbreeze said:

Archontophoenix  alexandrae do grow in Darwin, I've got three reasonably tall in my garden, but have also lost a few. They don't look bad but they never seed, the flowers seem to burn. But that's at my place which is inland. Closer to the coast it would be easier for them and they are commonly sold in nurseries here.

Interesting. I just said I didn't see any in Darwin. I certainly didn't mean that there were none. In general you can tell what grows well in an area by what's growing in peoples gardens and I didn't notice any. Many better things to grow in Darwin I reckon. By what your saying they aren't as happy in the constant heat than the more milder temps in QLD especially when you consider the elevation some grow at. From a WA perspective it's like growing Howeas in Carnarvon or further north. It can be done, but they're not as easy as further south and you might as well grow a coconut anyway.

[tropicbreeze]

I've already got about 60 large to very large Coconuts, and probably another 20 - 30 smaller ones. A few Archontophoenix are a nice change.

[Tropicgardener]

1 hour ago, tropicbreeze said:

I've already got about 60 large to very large Coconuts, and probably another 20 - 30 smaller ones. A few Archontophoenix are a nice change.

I wonder how they would go for you if you could somehow plant them in a permanently wet or boggy location.......

[Pedro 65]

Since the thread is going off topic and the heading mentions NSW, on my next hike to to top of Mt Warning NSW I might plant a few Bangalows and they will be @ 1152 mtrs. Below pic of Mt  Warning and some of the caldera  is from Australian Geographic.   Pete                                                                                             

                  

[Tropicgardener]

2 hours ago, Pedro 65 said:

Since the thread is going off topic and the heading mentions NSW, on my next hike to to top of Mt Warning NSW I might plant a few Bangalows and they will be @ 1152 mtrs. Below pic of Mt  Warning and some of the caldera  is from Australian Geographic.   Pete                                                                                             

                  

Been to the top of that mountain quite a few times in my younger years....... Last time we had a German Backpacker with us...... He thought we were crazy as we jogged up the track in thongs  

[john_tas]

Checking out the stats for urbanville looks like high summer and low winter rainfall could be a requirement

 

[Bennz]

On 8/24/2016, 8:49:05, Pedro 65 said:

Since the thread is going off topic and the heading mentions NSW, on my next hike to to top of Mt Warning NSW I might plant a few Bangalows and they will be @ 1152 mtrs. Below pic of Mt  Warning and some of the caldera  is from Australian Geographic.   Pete                                                                                             

                  

Hey Pete, is top Mt Warning higher than Bar Mountain?  There are bangalows at summit of Bar Mountain already! Funny how the summit of Bar Mountain is still rainforest, while my recollection from my walk to top of Mt Warning 20+ years ago was of dry-sclerophyll type forest, with the rainforest ecotype finishing quite a bit lower down..

[Dave-Vero]

The concrete jungle of Orlando, Florida seems to be turning into a palm haven.  

The eastern Australian climate may be almost as complex as coastal California and Oregon.  

Atlantic North America is regrettably cursed.  While the Brisbane climate is fairly comparable to ours (and we're at a similar latitude, but with nowhere near the surfing), Wollongong is utterly unlike Wilmington, North Carolina at the same northerly latitude and the northern limit of Sabal palmetto.  What messes us up is cold air flowing across the great continental mass and even across the Arctic ice, sometimes all the way from Siberia.  The air warms as it flows south, but in doing so becomes incredibly dry, making for extremely low dew points and freezing at night.  On an extreme night, cold air can be flowing from inland Florida seaward to the Gulf and Atlantic coasts, with even inland Miami frozen.  Because cold is almost always dry, snow is rare, but once, it snowed in Freeport, the Bahamas.  I survived the great Jacksonville (northeast Florida) ice storm.  The Butia palms were unfazed.  

Pedro, that photo makes a great extra-added excuse to visit.

john_tas, southern Florida, like Brisbane is dry-winter, but I don't think I've noticed Archontophoenix pouting when they get watered.   Along those same lines, Archontophoenix for some reason seem more popular in summer-dry California than they are here.  Go figure. 

[JT in Japan]

On August 24, 2016 at 8:16:34 PM, Tropicgardener said:

Been to the top of that mountain quite a few times in my younger years....... Last time we had a German Backpacker with us...... He thought we were crazy as we jogged up the track in thongs  

Yes, I caught yer jogging page... Not too cold?

 

[Pip]

38 minutes ago, JT in Japan said:

Yes, I caught yer jogging page... Not too cold?

 

Hahahahahahahahahahaha,  thongs in Australia means flipflops

[Pedro 65]

On 9/1/2016, 5:57:47, Bennz said:

Hey Pete, is top Mt Warning higher than Bar Mountain?  There are bangalows at summit of Bar Mountain already! Funny how the summit of Bar Mountain is still rainforest, while my recollection from my walk to top of Mt Warning 20+ years ago was of dry-sclerophyll type forest, with the rainforest ecotype finishing quite a bit lower down..

Hey Ben, I just got the elevation of Bar Mtn of 1140 mtrs, so only 12mtrs below the "Rock" top of Mt Warning.. Your right  theres huge rainforest trees and palms on the western Caldera of Mt Warning and to the Sth and Nth, Mt warning is steep so all the goodies are down below as you mentiomed,  the Caldera is the rich, below and up at top when you get back into the rich soil and I must mention a  a Great Rain attractor.     The Aboriginal name for Mt Warning is Woolumbin which means  "cloud catcher" .. Thought I'd put in a the Pinnacle which you would have walked.  For  Folks that dont know , Mt Warning Caldera is 72 km wide and is the largest extinct Volcanic rim in the Sthn hemisphere..   Pete

 

 

The Pinnacle Lookout - Border Ranges National Park, NSW - YouTube

www.youtube.com1280 × 720Search by image

The Pinnacle Lookout - Border Ranges National Park, NSW

[john_tas]

Nice vid Pete, didn't spot any palms only a few of what looked like pandanus and a few unknown tree ferns

[Pedro 65]

55 minutes ago, john_tas said:

Nice vid Pete, didn't spot any palms only a few of what looked like pandanus and a few unknown tree ferns

Thats because its the "Steep" Pinnacle walk, and the plants you see at the end of the vid are Xanthorrhoea, once you get back into the "Rainforest" of the Border ranges up high there is plenty of this... Pete   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

                                                                                               

[KrisKupsch]

1156m asl Mt Warning is Pete

[Pedro 65]

On 9/1/2016, 5:57:47, Bennz said:

Hey Pete, is top Mt Warning higher than Bar Mountain?  There are bangalows at summit of Bar Mountain already! Funny how the summit of Bar Mountain is still rainforest, while my recollection from my walk to top of Mt Warning 20+ years ago was of dry-sclerophyll type forest, with the rainforest ecotype finishing quite a bit lower down..

 

 

 

.   

 

Hey Ben, here's an Antartic beech pic for you which you would have seen on your Bar Mtn walk....Pete

 

 

   

                                                

 

                                                                     

[PalmTreeDude]

Awesome! I love palms in their habitats! 

Edited September 3, 2016 by PalmTreeDude

[Tropicgardener]

On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2016‎ ‎11‎:‎29‎:‎35‎, JT in Japan said:

Yes, I caught yer jogging page... Not too cold?

 

Haha.......... Wrong sort of thongs..... I only wear the footwear types...... Wouldn't be seen dead in those  

[Sir Oxylon]

There is a grove of Archontophoenix cunninghamiana on the Megalong Road in the Megalong valley south of Blackheath west of Sydney. It was 7 years ago that I was at the site but I would estimate that they were at 700-800 m alt. I imagine they would see some reasonably cold temperatures that far south at that altitude.

[Jonathan]

On 23/08/2016, 11:01:30, Tropicgardener said:

You mustn't have looked in the right place Jonathon ............ The 2 species certainly are growing intermingled together at Eungella. At some locations there are more Piccabeens and at other locations more Alexandra Palms but they do intermingle even with crowns touching. Once you loose elevation it the rainforest reverts back to typical tropical North Queensland Alexandra groves.

True - I mustn't have looked hard enough last time!

 

Just spent a couple more days at Eungella last month and during a long (20km - we thought it was meant to 8!) walk through the forest we saw plenty of places where the two species were basically growing together. However they mostly seem to form single species stands, with a small overlap, rather than large mixed species stands.

 

I couldn't really figure out what the parameters were for one species displacing the other within the forest - they were both mostly within the moist gully heads and not so much on the ridges. This was at the Broken River section of Eungella NP between the river and the town itself. There are many kms of walking tracks which are well worth exploring, almost entirely within the rain forest canopy. I think I read somewhere that Eungella NP contains the largest continuous tract of sub-tropical rain forest in Australia?

 

Above the township of Eungella on the road to Peases Lookout the Alex's vanish and are replaced by single species stands of Bangalows (should call 'em Piccabeens when in Qld I guess!) as the altitude and exposure increase. The lookout is at about 900m, the town about 700m, so that seems to be roughly the altitude limit for Alex's in that part of Qld.

 

We found some Alex seedlings growing in the creek bed at Broken River with just the tip of their leaf blades sticking out of the water - I doubt they'll survive the next flood, as there were no older seedlings in the same location. Gives you an idea of their irrigation preferences though!

 

One last 'interesting fact' (sorry to bore you!) about Eungella - I spoke to a retired dairy farmer up there, who's farm is on the slopes directly above the rain forest at Broken River, and he said that sometimes in winter frost would form on his hair while he was walking down to the dairy in the mornings for milking - so that's pretty cold. Obviously there would not be any frost under the forest canopy, but there would still be some pretty low temps. Even in October it was chilly in the morning inside the tent. However it rapidly heated up to about 30C every day. There are no coconuts growing at Eungella!

 

Cheers,

 

Jonathan

 

 

 

[Alberto]

Today i read this old thread again, ( nice memories) after having one of my tallest A. cunninghamiana from Urbenville felled through a tree that felt down. 😞 Fortunatelly there are 4 more here and a few planted in other places.  They are fruiting well this year. I' ll try to make some new seedlings. Pic of one of the palms with a beautifull collored crownshaft:

[Jonathan]

That is nice palm Alberto...and a good old thread featuring some people we don't here much from any more.

Many years later, my  conclusion is that there isn't much difference in hardiness between the various ecotypes of cunninghamiana, and that my timing was always rubbish as far as seed collection was concerned! Two not very useful observations...

[Alberto]

I' m not certain if provenance of plants doesn' t make difference.  I think leave hardiness of this Urbenville king palms is better but there wasn't a real hard freeze at my place the last cold winters in the surroundings. I was lucky because it was -5⁰ this year, 20 km from here and -8⁰C three years ago in a place near my town. But I know there is difference in leave hardiness of my native Syagrus romanzoffiana and a palm I cultivated from seed collected in São Paulo state. The last one showed damage in a winter, while my native ones were ok.

[happypalms]

I was recently driving through the border range’s national park west of Grafton (my home town) also know as the Gibraltar range and these pictures are of the archontophoenix cunninghamiana at that altitude. You can see the fog in the pictures and it does extremely cold up there with the nearby town of glen innes with reports from locals of temperatures in winter of minus 13. So it does get cold in that  area. There is also a population of linospadix monostachya up there in one area from a leftover remnant of the once vast rainforest that was in that area.

[Alberto]

On 10/27/2024 at 2:28 AM, happypalms said:

I was recently driving through the border range’s national park west of Grafton (my home town) also know as the Gibraltar range and these pictures are of the archontophoenix cunninghamiana at that altitude. You can see the fog in the pictures and it does extremely cold up there with the nearby town of glen innes with reports from locals of temperatures in winter of minus 13. So it does get cold in that  area. There is also a population of linospadix monostachya up there in one area from a leftover remnant of the once vast rainforest that was in that area.

Nice pictures. You made me remember my only and nice Linospadix monostachia that died for no known reason.  I have to try to grow it again.... 

[Harry’s Palms]

@Alberto Agree! What an awesome sight . Harry

[happypalms]

5 hours ago, Harry’s Palms said:

@Alberto Agree! What an awesome sight . Harry

The border ranges nationally park is amazing granite boulder country to rainforest minutes drive away from each. The only Waratah population outside of the Sydney region. Beech trees that look like there straight out of Tasmania Christmas bell flowers absolutely stunning part of the world. And the difference in climatic temperature from one area to the next baking hot sun granite country to cool temperate rainforest the diversity in flora and fauna a step back in time.