After reading the discussion on the forest coconut it got me wondering if there was one variety of cocos nucifera that has shown more tolerance to colder temps than others.  All of us here in so cal sadly realize that cocos nucifera just doesn't survive here exept in a few instances, (the famous Newport Beach coconut) but that hasn't stopped many from still trying, me included.  If we were to get one with the best chance to make it with the perfect microclimates, which variety would have the best chance?  Does anyone know of other examples of cocos surviving here in so cal other than the one in newport beach?

Don, My golden Malay dwarf will be going into it's 5th winter and is looking awesome! It's 12 ft. to the tallest frond and a 1 ft. Dia. base. I went to a lot of extra trouble to plant it differantly and it's paid off. I posted some very nice pics of it last year but they were lost after the board crashed. Maybe somebody with better computer skills than myself can bring it back from the archives if it's in there. Steve

Steve,

I'd love to see some pics, what did you do differently?  What is the coldest temps that it has seen? and Where can you find the golden malay dwarf?  To be able to grow a cocos outdoors here in so cal is a quite an accomplishment.  Congrats steve

Don

Hi Don

Although I live in the sub-tropics I am at the bottom of a valley. Temps dropped to just above 5c (42) on a good few winter nights. Winter days I believe are more important to the ultimate survival of the palms, temps above 20c (68) on most winter days should keep them growing slowly through the winter months. Soil that has a high clay content will need to be amended. A position in full sun is a must. In Cali winter rain may be the cause of many of the failures. My Cocos (all tall types more than likely from plants originally from Mozambique\Tanzania) at the bottom of the garden did get some spotting. The plants at the top of the garden, untouched. I am not sure of the cold/cool tolerance of the "dwarf" Cocos types.

Cheers

Dennis

Thanks Don, Probably the biggest thing in it's favor is it's planted about 200 yds. from the beach and I believe they like the coastal influence and the salt air. Other than that I have it planted on a south facing slope with a 2 story building on the north side to block cold winter winds and for reflective heat and radiational heat in the winter. I got to thinking about it being a resort in the winter people probably leave their heaters on most of the time. Also I laid down black weed fabric to block excess water in the winter so the area does'nt get to saturated. Probably the most important thing that I did was to put black seawashed stones all around it to solar heat the ground during the day. That and a little luck and so far so good. Last winter was a particularly cold one with visable frost near the area it's planted and it did yellow out a bit but starting in spring I fertilized it with everything and the kitchen sink and it greened right up and looks really good right now. Last year it threw 7 fronds and right now it is working on it's 5th frond for the year. I picked it up as a large 2 gal. at Home Depot. Steve

The biggest hurdle with growing cocos out of the subtropics is soil temp. when the soil temp drops below approx. 40 degrees the roots shut down and the tree will go into a slow decline.  If the soil temp remains low for to long the palm will die. The key is to keep the soil more than the heart warm to keep the roots active and absorbing nutrients. The heart is no problem above freezing. I add alot of compost in november, that builds enough soil temp as it breaks down to push leaves through march and then the worry is over at least in orlando. This works for me so hopefully it will help you as well.

The biggest hurdle with growing cocos out of the subtropics is soil temp. when the soil temp drops below approx. 40 degrees the roots shut down and the tree will go into a slow decline.  If the soil temp remains low for to long the palm will die. The key is to keep the soil more than the heart warm to keep the roots active and absorbing nutrients. The heart is no problem above freezing. I add alot of compost in november, that builds enough soil temp as it breaks down to push leaves through march and then the worry is over at least in orlando. This works for me so hopefully it will help you as well.

I think you're right on with this analysis........ I am growing cocos in pots and I bring them in my greenhouse in the winter... I have DEFINITELY noticed how VERY warm temps affect these dramatically... While most of my other palms will grow very happily at around 75-80f, these have shown almost all of their growth when the temps are 85-90f and the nights stay above 75f.... Just my observations... so, It would make perfect sense that the soil temps must be kept warm for these to be happy long term.

I hope to get one growing here in a North facing spot with the house wall behind it in a protected spot in a raised sandy bed (our "soil" is 100ft deep beach sand) in a rockery. In it's early days I will cover it with plastic, and leave it bone dry in winter. I'll even bring in sea salt and salty seaweed for it to munch on. That's my plan any way.

regards

Tyrone

Thanks for the info, it gives me some hope after all

Several plants in my neighborhood have produced edible fruit over the last 17 years.  One Jamaican Tall nearby is amazingly tall and robust for this climate.  My part of Tampa has been as cold as 27F (February of 1996) as has seen temps in the upper 20's F at least 3 other times since 1989.

The biggest hurdle with growing cocos out of the subtropics is soil temp. when the soil temp drops below approx. 40 degrees the roots shut down and the tree will go into a slow decline.  If the soil temp remains low for to long the palm will die. The key is to keep the soil more than the heart warm to keep the roots active and absorbing nutrients. The heart is no problem above freezing. I add alot of compost in november, that builds enough soil temp as it breaks down to push leaves through march and then the worry is over at least in orlando. This works for me so hopefully it will help you as well.

If this is true, then it should be resaonably easy to grow a coconut in a mild climate like San Diego or Sydney. It should be simply a case of laying a bit of soil warming coils through the base of a slightly raised bed, and covering in winter with plastic to avoid excess cold wet plus more solar gain. Does this mean that nobody has tried this in these warmer mild areas? Or is there perhaps that essential 20C+ winter daytime that Dennis refered to?

I would love to grow Cocos, but alas at 39S my complete lack of frost does not compensate for annual air temps of only 15C....

Bennz, if you can do it at 39S that's amazing.  At 39N you don't even dream about planting cocos - unless Bobby in NY is going to try and build a big dome over one.  Very few locations anywhere near 30N, outside of Bermuda at 34N and possibly coastal FL at 29-30N can you even think about planting cocos.  I guess that's because we're on a big land mass and you're surrounded by water.  I live at 29N and I can't even think about trying it.  They usually have to be south of 27-28N

"Spicata" is rumored to be more drought tolerant  than other coconut types. As drought tolerance and cold  tolerance can be linked I wonder if this might hold true for this variety.  I am bound to get some going sooner or later but has anyone else tried this type (actually two types red and yellow) in a marginal climate?

Alan

Two days ago I marked the spear on my Coconut in Del Mar and it has grown an inch a day! The night time temps the last couple of days have been in the high 40's so I thought that was pretty good. I don't think it shutdown last year until about Jan so this must be a cold hardy Coco. It has less brown tipping and looks better than some of the Kings I have planted there. Anyhows for the sake of science I will let you guys know what temps. it takes this winter and at what point it totally shuts down in case someone else wants to grow one in a marginal climate. Steve

Steve

Did you ever find the picture that you had of it, if you did I would like to see it.

Don, Sorry I went to the Archive forum and could't find it and I lost the pics on my computer when it crashed a few moths back . Will try to take somemore pics sometime soon. Steve

The USDA actually classifies my area (Lake Placid, Florida) as zone 9a (pre 2003 map). The new map has it as zone 9 (with no sub zones).

In any event, wintertime soil temperatures aren't an issue, as the January average high is 73-74 degrees, lows around 49 degrees. Soil temperatures run well over 60 degrees most of the time in the dead of the winter.

The real problem here is the occasional arctic blast (advective freeze) and also a bad radiational freeze.

The last real bad radiational freeze was on January 5, 2001. All of the coconut palms around here were fried, except those within a 100 feet or so of large lakes, where it was slightly warmer.

This photo depicts what most coconut palms looked like as a result of that freeze:

by waltcat100

Here's the same coconut palm a year or more later, fully recovered. It hasn't been freeze damaged since that day, Jan. 5, 2001:

by waltcat100

Another palm that I understand (from past posts here) that is also difficult to grow in the warmer areas of So. Cal., is Adonidia merrillii.  Like the coconut palm, they grow fine here until we get a bad freeze. This past Feb. 14th I experienced my second worst radiational freeze since living here, for nine years. It was second only to the Jan. 5, 2001 radiational freeze.

The below photo shows some toasted Adonidia merrillii palms belonging to a neighbor about two blocks from me:

by waltcat100

The below photo shows these same palms many months later after they had mostly recovered:

by waltcat100

At our nursery, I've grown a limited number of C. nucifera over the years.  I don't really do many because I know the majority of them will die outdoors in So Cal, so I'd only be selling a plant with a death warant.  In fact, we've lost Coconuts inside the greenhouse on multiple occasions.  We let our greenhouses get into the upper thirties during the winter.  I've definitely noticed a difference between types.  I've talked to Ag "experts" about this as well.  The Pacific Tall (not one of the dwarfs) is said to have the best cold tolerance.  Unfortunately, in Florida most of the present varieties are of the dwarf type because of lethal yellow tolerance.  Therefore, Coconuts coming from FL typically die here.  If one is serious about growing a Coconut, search out the best one if you can get info on the parent.

Phil

San Diegol

I am not sure if a coconut will ever be found to be more tolerant of lower minimum temperatures, but if you travel to tropical highland areas, you occasionally see coconuts growing to cooler locations, so coconuts can be more cool tolerant.

An example would be Tres Rios, Costa Rica, which is at 1524 meters in elevation. I built a house there a few years back and fruiting coconuts were occasionally seen. Temperatures in Tres Rios are consistent year round, with an average cool season temperature of 16 degrees Celsius. The coldest time of year there is the beginning of the dry season and rain is scarce there at that time. Its temperature zone would be 11b.

A friend of mine from India who has traveled in the Western Ghats to the mountain stations said you can find coconuts growing at similar elevations and temperatures there as well.

Maybe one day someone will find fruiting coconuts at slightly higher elevations in the tropics that could be successfully grown in parts of SoCal.

Below are two pictures of a coconut that I've had growing in a terracotta pot since February/March of this year - been outside the entire time with no greenhouses or artificial heating methods.  It initially spotted/yellowed a bit, but grew very well over the spring/summer and is till growing half an inch or so a day now.  It's potted in all sand with river rock stones on top to help keep it warm - per "Steve in San Diegos"  suggestions when I got it.  The first shot shows it from the side and the second from above - displaying the new fronds coming up... both of these were taken today.

You may notice a second coconut behind it.. I purchased them both at the same time/place and potted them in the same manner - while the coconut in the foreground has done very well in my opinion, the one in the back has done just ok - not on deaths door or anything, but very slow growing.  I'd like to get both in the ground this spring - as long as they make it through this winter...  

Steve, I remember the photos you spoke of, but couldn't find the post in the archive - any chance of getting some updated photos???  12 feet??? must look pretty good...  Keep it up and people will forget about that palm tree in Newport...

As In SA, Those Cocos are looking good man! They look like the same variety that I have been growing with the nice golden petioles. You've done your homework and it shows. Lets pray for a mild winter and continued success with your palms. Steve

Thanks Steve...  any chance of getting an updated photo of yours for added inspiration???  Here's the 2nd shot I mentioned but failed to post  - from above...

I'm going to take pics soon as it opens one more frond. I'm really bummed that I lost the old pics as I wanted to post them side by side for comparison. It's really grown alot this year. Steve