The American crocodile is making a return

[SubTropicRay]

The American Crocodile is a native Floridian species. I'm glad they are back and growing in numbers. The gators can't have it all to themselves.

American Croc comeback

[Creekside]

A friend of mine saw one in North Port a couple of years ago. Until then, I had only heard about them being in the everglades. Now Manatee County! That's great, I would love to see one.

[Eric in Orlando]

I remember back in the mid 90s, the last time I visited there, that several had been seen living around Sanibel Island.

Theres a good sized one in the lagoon at Montgomery.

[Bob Johnson]

Very exciting news. Glad to see their numbers increasing. I remember seeing them in the Everglades back in the 1990s - they are impressive animals.

[John in Andalucia]

Thanks, Ray. A really interesting read. I also stumbled on this amazing National Geographic photo of an American crocodile. Apparently, one of the not-so-obvious differences between crocs and gators is the visible lower fangs when the jaw is closed; the reptilian in this photo could almost be mistaken for gesturing with his. One tooth meaner than a junkyard dog!

[amazon exotics]

The huge female croc still lives on Sanibel.

[bubba]

Ray, Great story! Go Crocodiles!

[Austinpalm]

Very glad to hear about the American crocodile's recovery. I would love to see one someday. Red mangrove has started popping up along the Rio Grande. Maybe, crocodiles will move north as well.

[steve 9atx]

Bubba

Do the Crocodiles play the Gators? If so, why aren't you cheering for the Gators?

Austin

Even the ubiquitous black mangroves can be eliminated en masse with a hard freeze.

I don't see the reds as a long-term subject for the Valley. They've never made it

there before.

One way to help would be to get the State to cut open the silted up channels across

Padre Island and/or dig new ones. Parts of the Laguna, and bays like Baffin are hyper-

saline in the summer months which kills both sea grasses and mangroves. We need

more Gulf water to flush the Laguna.

Steve

[bubba]

No Croc's in NCAA football so the Gator's can't play the Croc's.In the late 1800's Alligator Joe from Palm Beach took his 10 Foot Gator down to Card Sound where he met Conch's on a $500.00 bet they issued to the Universe to fight their Croc. Gator won hands down and Alligator Joe rolled back to Palm Beach $500.00 dollars richer. I am not sure it was fair because Croc's are slighter than Gators of the same length. A fairer match would have been a 15 foot Croc against a 10 foot Gator.Don't see it happening soon.(see Michael Vick)

[steve 9atx]

Bubba

If you didn't know that was a joke........

Gator's vs Croc's, has kind of an "antique" ring. Like the Greeks pitting dogs vs cats or the Romans

lions vs bears, Retiarii vs Secutores.

Seriously, I do have a question for all you Reptilian Biologists out there. We were in Zimbabwe (God

bless them) about four years ago and happened to visit a Crocodile farm. These would be, of course,

Nile Crocodiles, not their "American cousin" (or the Ford's Theater play). The guide there had two giant

stuffed heads, Gator and Croc, to compare. And, you're right, Bubba, the Gator has much the more

powerful build. It surprised me though that the Croc was such a poor parent. Apparently, they just

lay their eggs in a sand pile and go. I explained to the fellow that Alligators build a massive nest of

rotting vegetation to incubate their eggs. They tend them periodically, adding to the nest, and that the

temperature of the nest determines the sex of the progeny. Does anyone know if the American Croc

has taken any parenting classes from the Gator?

I know about the Gator nests because of a fishing lease I'm involved with in Danbury, TX just south of

Houston. We get Gator permits most years - I think the record was 12. The way Texas Parks and

Wildlife determines the number you get is to have a State Biologist fly your property in a helicopter

counting nests, which are clearly visible from the air even under the trees. With this count, they have

a formula for estimating population and issuing hunting permits.

I've never actually participated in one of these hunts, but I've seen the pictures. It's gruesome business.

Alligators are nothing if not die hard. They also taste good and make wonderful boots.

Steve

Edited December 13, 2008 by steve 9atx

[bubba]

Steve, Now you know I had to tell my Alligator Joe story again.I believe it's the fourth time. Best gator I ever had was in the Quarter with some kind of great barbeque/cajun sauce.

[_Keith]

Steve, Now you know I had to tell my Alligator Joe story again.I believe it's the fourth time. Best gator I ever had was in the Quarter with some kind of great barbeque/cajun sauce.

Bubba, that would be called "allligator sauce picante." I have had it myself on numerous occaisions.

Feeling adventurous and want to try it yourself.

Alligator Sauce Piquant

2 to 4 pounds alligator meat 1/4 cup margarine One 16-ounce can tomato sauce 2 tomatoes (minced) 1 or 2 chil1 peppers 1 onion (diced) 1 cup celery (diced) 1 cup bell pepper (diced) 5 cloves garlic (minced) 1/2 cup mushrooms (diced/sliced) 4 cups water 1/4 cup onion tops (minced) 1/4 cup parsley (minced) Seasoning (cayenne, paprika, Tony Chachere's & McCormick's Season-All) Special cooking utensils: 5 quart Magnolite pot, wooden spoon

Oven temperature: Medium high

Season meat liberally with equal parts Tony's and McCormick's. Add cayenne and paprika according to taste. Melt margarine in pot and saute meat, peppers, onions, celery, garlic and bell pepper until onions are wilted (about 10 minutes). Add tomatoes, tomato sauce, and water. Cook over medium heat until oil rises to the top (about 1/2 hour).

Add mushrooms, onion tops and parsley. Season to taste, adding cayenne and salt if required, simmer for 15 minutes.

Serve over 1 cup of rice or seafood.

Serves: 6 to 8

[Jeff in St Pete]

Ray, thanks for the link. I'm glad to see they are making a comeback in FL even though they scare the hell out of me. There is a big one living here on the beach in an estuary. So far it has killed three dogs belonging to three different locals.

[palmmermaid]

I've seen them down in the mangroves in the Keys.

I've been bumped by an alligator. We were diving in one of the springs in the central part of the state. My husband was taking pictures of me feeding the fish when I saw a large shadow and then something bumped my mask. I turned my head and saw a 6' alligator swimming away. We decided to stay and finish the photo shoot. But I kept looking over my shoulder. Then I saw the gator swiiming toward us again. He dropped under water and opened his mouth. I left the water in a hurry! My husband said he turned to warn me and I was gone. He followed me out of the water. All I could think was that a gator can walk pretty fast on land for a short distance. I kept thinking "Can I climb a tree in full scuba gear?" It was pretty exciting. The ranger told us some other divers had been harassing the gator and he had gotten agressive.

I'll take the sharks any day!

[bubba]

Kitty,I got you doing the same thing! You told that great Gator story about three years ago! It's still good!

[Eric in Orlando]

that would have been quite scary. Years ago at Blue Springs, some friends and I were snorkeling and a huge cottonmouth snake swam right thru us.

Also one day when I was with my family at Sanibel, they cleared the water for awile as a school of sharks were feeding close to shore. The next day they cleared the water again as a 12 ft alligator had crawled across the beach from a swamp and decided to take a salt water swim.

I've seen them down in the mangroves in the Keys.

I've been bumped by an alligator. We were diving in one of the springs in the central part of the state. My husband was taking pictures of me feeding the fish when I saw a large shadow and then something bumped my mask. I turned my head and saw a 6' alligator swimming away. We decided to stay and finish the photo shoot. But I kept looking over my shoulder. Then I saw the gator swiiming toward us again. He dropped under water and opened his mouth. I left the water in a hurry! My husband said he turned to warn me and I was gone. He followed me out of the water. All I could think was that a gator can walk pretty fast on land for a short distance. I kept thinking "Can I climb a tree in full scuba gear?" It was pretty exciting. The ranger told us some other divers had been harassing the gator and he had gotten agressive.

I'll take the sharks any day!

[Wai`anae Steve]

I don't understand what everyone is so happy about. Is there some other animal that needs gator/crocs to control the population?

Just wait till one pops up in your back yard and eats your dog.

Wai`anae STeve

[SubTropicRay]

Steve,

Noone wants to see a native species dissapear. Yes, even a crocodile. They were here long before us so they deserve some protection and respect.

Ray

[Wai`anae Steve]

Steve,

Noone wants to see a native species dissapear. Yes, even a crocodile. They were here long before us so they deserve some protection and respect.

Ray

Not so sure I can agree if it somehow doesn't affect/effect the environment. What is it's benefit to the world other than eating what it can? I can see sharks as needed to control populations of other sea creatures. Lions/Tigers and other sorts of wild cat as well as wolf's and the sort. But what good does a croc or gator do to the world?

Not trying to be a trouble maker, just wondering.

Here we have just had a few 1000 acres dedicated to some native fly. Not sure if the world or Hawai`i would miss the fly unless somehow it helps to balance the environment.

Wai`anae Steve

[SubTropicRay]

Steve,

Its diet has to be similar to that of the American Alligator. If it's native, I can assure you it's supposed to be here keeping something in check. Regardless, that decision is not for you or me to make.

Ray

[Eric in Orlando]

If they have survived since before the dinosaurs, then there is some purpose for them.

[Austinpalm]

Bubba

Austin

Even the ubiquitous black mangroves can be eliminated en masse with a hard freeze.

I don't see the reds as a long-term subject for the Valley. They've never made it

there before.

Steve

Maybe so, but they sure have gotten big this time around. And they keep on spreading.

[steve 9atx]

Austinpalm

Where did you take that pic? I'm no mangrove expert except when I pretend to be at US Army Corps of Engineers' hearings;

but from a distance, I can see that those are definitely not black mangroves - they never look that leggy or set themselves up

in fully-inundated areas unless they're in an area of sweet to brackish water.

Seriously though, I have had some knock down, drag out fights with the Corps over tiny (I'm talking 150 sf) areas of mangrove

they call "Golden Plover habitat". In a meeting with the Corps, I make the case that, "a Golden Plover couldn't find that patch of

mangrove with binoculars, much less make it it's 'habitat". And then, there's the National Marine Fisheries guy sitting at the table

pontificating about all these birds, and I'm like "shut up about the birds, your area is fish!" And then all the agencies in attendance

start lamenting the state of the seagrasses, and I'm like "get off your collective asses and get some funding (massive amounts of

funds are available today from private groups like the Coastal Conservation Association) to open up the silted channels" - the

seagrasses in the Laguna will take off with some tidal flush. But, of course, re-cutting channels that were open as recently as 15

years ago will take new Environmental Impact Studies.....

The channels could all be open in three months. And they all wonder why the hypersalinity is killing the seagrasses.

About the only bright spot from our beloved Galveston District of the USACE is the Bahia Grande project. This is the reinundation

of ultimately around 10,000 acres of estuarial wetland finally flooded around five years ago. I think it's the largest project of it's

type ever attempted in the US. Of course, I'm salivating because I fish the bays these estuaries feed into. But they went and did

the same damned thing and starved off the tidal flow by cheaping out on the number and size of channels they cut from the

Brownsville ship channel, between and amongst bays, and back into north bay. Everybody's "afraid' of what will happen. This was

how it was in 1936 and everything was more abundant then. Put it back.

Tad, you own a backhoe, don't you?

Back down off the soap box now. I would be interested in where you took the pic - is this a natural condition, or is this a Nature

Conservancy project, etc. where they are actually planting red mangroves?

Steve

Edited December 18, 2008 by steve 9atx

[newcal]

Question Guys....Any known croc fatalities attributed to the American crocodile ? Are they as dangerous as our salties....cheers Mike Green (Newcal)

[palmmermaid]

Mike,

From what I've read about Australia, nothing we have compares to the things you guys have! You even have places that can kill you!

[jam99]

But what good does a croc or gator do to the world?

I am sorry Steve, but I strongly disagree with you. These days when a number of animal/plant species go extinct each day because of our ignorance and us destroying their habitat we should be the last one to question any other species' existence. Who are we to do so? I presume our existence is justified because we are damn good at controlling the populations of other species.

Edited December 18, 2008 by jam99

[Austinpalm]

Austinpalm

Where did you take that pic? I'm no mangrove expert except when I pretend to be at US Army Corps of Engineers' hearings;

but from a distance, I can see that those are definitely not black mangroves - they never look that leggy or set themselves up

in fully-inundated areas unless they're in an area of sweet to brackish water.

Seriously though, I have had some knock down, drag out fights with the Corps over tiny (I'm talking 150 sf) areas of mangrove

they call "Golden Plover habitat". In a meeting with the Corps, I make the case that, "a Golden Plover couldn't find that patch of

mangrove with binoculars, much less make it it's 'habitat". And then, there's the National Marine Fisheries guy sitting at the table

pontificating about all these birds, and I'm like "shut up about the birds, your area is fish!" And then all the agencies in attendance

start lamenting the state of the seagrasses, and I'm like "get off your collective asses and get some funding (massive amounts of

funds are available today from private groups like the Coastal Conservation Association) to open up the silted channels" - the

seagrasses in the Laguna will take off with some tidal flush. But, of course, re-cutting channels that were open as recently as 15

years ago will take new Environmental Impact Studies.....

The channels could all be open in three months. And they all wonder why the hypersalinity is killing the seagrasses.

About the only bright spot from our beloved Galveston District of the USACE is the Bahia Grande project. This is the reinundation

of ultimately around 10,000 acres of estuarial wetland finally flooded around five years ago. I think it's the largest project of it's

type ever attempted in the US. Of course, I'm salivating because I fish the bays these estuaries feed into. But they went and did

the same damned thing and starved off the tidal flow by cheaping out on the number and size of channels they cut from the

Brownsville ship channel, between and amongst bays, and back into north bay. Everybody's "afraid' of what will happen. This was

how it was in 1936 and everything was more abundant then. Put it back.

Tad, you own a backhoe, don't you?

Back down off the soap box now. I would be interested in where you took the pic - is this a natural condition, or is this a Nature

Conservancy project, etc. where they are actually planting red mangroves?

Steve

Steve,

That picture was taken at Boca Chica, about 1/2 mile upstream from the where Rio Grande enters the gulf. I know of nobody planting red mangrove in Texas. I first noticed red mangrove down there about 4 years ago. The first one I found was literally on the beach in a small channel off of the river. Since them I have found several more up river. So far, all are individual plants, but many are starting to produce seed now. I have read that there are red mangroves in the Laguna Madre, but have yet to find one or see a picture. I was even told of red mangrove in the Corpus Christi area, but cannot remember exactly where.

There are large stands of black mangrove along the Rio Grande as well as in South Bay and other portions of the Laguna Madrea. Some of the black mangroves are approaching 15ft in height now. Not the tallest by any means, but really tall for the area. I formerly worked for a botanist who did a study on black mangrove along the Texas coast. He took black mangrove from Texas and planted them in a warmer climate in Mexico to compare growth rates. At some point, about 3-4 ft tall, the Texas mangroves just quit growing up. It is his belief that mangroves along the northern gulf are genetically predisposed to stay short as an adaptation to the occassional severe cold fronts that hit the area.

[Austinpalm]

Question Guys....Any known croc fatalities attributed to the American crocodile ? Are they as dangerous as our salties....cheers Mike Green (Newcal)

The American crocodile is reported to be one of the least agressive crocodile species. I believe there have been a few reports of attacks on people, but generally the alligator is more dangerous.

[edbrown_III]

Austinpalm

Where did you take that pic? I'm no mangrove expert except when I pretend to be at US Army Corps of Engineers' hearings;

but from a distance, I can see that those are definitely not black mangroves - they never look that leggy or set themselves up

in fully-inundated areas unless they're in an area of sweet to brackish water.

Seriously though, I have had some knock down, drag out fights with the Corps over tiny (I'm talking 150 sf) areas of mangrove

they call "Golden Plover habitat". In a meeting with the Corps, I make the case that, "a Golden Plover couldn't find that patch of

mangrove with binoculars, much less make it it's 'habitat". And then, there's the National Marine Fisheries guy sitting at the table

pontificating about all these birds, and I'm like "shut up about the birds, your area is fish!" And then all the agencies in attendance

start lamenting the state of the seagrasses, and I'm like "get off your collective asses and get some funding (massive amounts of

funds are available today from private groups like the Coastal Conservation Association) to open up the silted channels" - the

seagrasses in the Laguna will take off with some tidal flush. But, of course, re-cutting channels that were open as recently as 15

years ago will take new Environmental Impact Studies.....

The channels could all be open in three months. And they all wonder why the hypersalinity is killing the seagrasses.

About the only bright spot from our beloved Galveston District of the USACE is the Bahia Grande project. This is the reinundation

of ultimately around 10,000 acres of estuarial wetland finally flooded around five years ago. I think it's the largest project of it's

type ever attempted in the US. Of course, I'm salivating because I fish the bays these estuaries feed into. But they went and did

the same damned thing and starved off the tidal flow by cheaping out on the number and size of channels they cut from the

Brownsville ship channel, between and amongst bays, and back into north bay. Everybody's "afraid' of what will happen. This was

how it was in 1936 and everything was more abundant then. Put it back.

Tad, you own a backhoe, don't you?

Back down off the soap box now. I would be interested in where you took the pic - is this a natural condition, or is this a Nature

Conservancy project, etc. where they are actually planting red mangroves?

Steve

Steve,

I aint no mangrove expert either but most of the mangroves in south florida are red, you have the black mangroves that are further north. They have these as far north as Jacksonville . The hypersalinity problem is not a channelization but a lack of water flow to these lagoons and embayements at the bottom of the Everglades. Increased flows from the Norht via Shark River slough and taylor creek are needed --- . This water disappears into the ground before it even gets to these bays. Relative to crocodiles, it isnt a hyper salinity problem but salinities abover 20 parts per thousand--- this puts a drag on the baby crocodiles and they dont survive. You keep it below this and they will flourish in this areas--- Seagrasses arent quite as sensitive and can take salinities up to 38 ppt (sea water is 35 ppt).

Most of the these embayments such as Joe Bay, Long bay Little terrapin, Madeira bay can host crocodiles if you can keep sufficient freshwater flowing from the north. Cutting channels is no answer if you dont have water flowing to these in March to dilute the sea water .

Ed

[steve 9atx]

Ed

Sorry for any confusion, but my comments were specific to the Texas coast, not Florida. As you may know,

we have a 130 mile long barrier island (Padre) with only one functional land cut at Port Mansfield. This makes

salinities in the Laguna behind the island up to 60 PSU due to the lack of flushing with Gulf water. Another

problem is lack of fresh water sources between the Nueces and Rio Grande rivers. This hypersalinity limits

the range of seagrasses that would otherwise populate the entire Laguna and secondary bays like Baffin. As

it is, seagrasses only exist in numbers at the extreme upper (Corpus) and lower (Port Isabel) reaches of the

Laguna as well as near Port Mansfield. Along with Austinpalm, I have never seen a red mangrove in any Texas

bay system. His pic is from the Rio Grande, not technically a bay. Reds like the more consistent warmth of

someplace like Florida. Our occasional cold snaps would tend to kill them off every few years - not enough

time for them to mature and go to seed.

Steve

[edbrown_III]

Ed

Sorry for any confusion, but my comments were specific to the Texas coast, not Florida. As you may know,

we have a 130 mile long barrier island (Padre) with only one functional land cut at Port Mansfield. This makes

salinities in the Laguna behind the island up to 60 PSU due to the lack of flushing with Gulf water. Another

problem is lack of fresh water sources between the Nueces and Rio Grande rivers. This hypersalinity limits

the range of seagrasses that would otherwise populate the entire Laguna and secondary bays like Baffin. As

it is, seagrasses only exist in numbers at the extreme upper (Corpus) and lower (Port Isabel) reaches of the

Laguna as well as near Port Mansfield. Along with Austinpalm, I have never seen a red mangrove in any Texas

bay system. His pic is from the Rio Grande, not technically a bay. Reds like the more consistent warmth of

someplace like Florida. Our occasional cold snaps would tend to kill them off every few years - not enough

time for them to mature and go to seed.

Steve

No its my folk this thread is jumping around between crocodiles ( south FL0 ) and Texas -- I didnt read it close enough--\

some of the cuts are problematic but it also seems like you are not getting flows to the lagoon as historically needed. Theres a bill or permit to tap the St Johns here in North FL---and divert it to Orlando ... Same problem diminished fresh water flows and seagrasses lose out. Simular problem between Atlanta and Appalachicola FL .. Fresh water flows were necessare to reduce salinities in Appalachicola Bay for oysters and seagrass both. This time folks are mad at the Corps for delivering the fresh water flows from Lake Lanier to the Gulf.

You start loosing the different species of seagrass as you go up in salinity Thallasia first , than Syrigoniums, the Halodules and finally the Halophilas ( above 50 ppt). Its a big deal most of the fish have part of their life cycle in the seagrasses.

Best regards,

Ed