Do you water into the crown?

[MattyB]

I'm going to use this poll data to write an article for the PSSC Journal. Everyone please feel free to add whatever comments come to mind also. Please vote in the appropriate poll: Californians or All Others. Thanks for the help guys and gals.

Mod Edit: I tried saving Matty's poll by adding a couple of more choices. The reason being that you need to cast a vote in both sections. So choose the last option for the section that does not apply to you.

[Kim]

The poll mechanism wants me to vote in both sections. Can't vote in just the California section.

[Palm Guy]

I'm having the same problem with the poll...

I'm non- Cali and I would say I avoid watering in the crown for small seedlings (because stem and crown rot easily set in on seedlings) and for juvenile palms grown in shade.

[cfkingfish]

Matt-

I think you may want to put in that many palms hate to be crown watered (they get it from below), and some love it as it keeps the leaves moist. If you want a list of genera that I think do and don't want crown watering, I would be happy to give it to you.

[Dypsisdean]

Matty,

As you know, almost my whole garden is watered from overhead. Of course with age, the taller palms outgrow the height of the sprinklers. But everything under head high receives water from overhead. I do this intentionally because I believe it is natural and helps keeping things clean. I think it may also help keeping some of the dryer loving insects (mites) at bay. It also benefits the ferns and aroids.

However, I always have the sprinklers come on just before sunrise. This is due to less evaporation (cool, humid, and calm), highest water pressure, but more importantly the chance for the plants and crown to dry for the entire day.

So while I do water the crown, I make sure it has a chance to dry as quickly and as thoroughly as possible.

[SubTropicRay]

In summer, I don't worry if the leaves get wet. In cool periods like we are having now, I avoid any overhead irrigation.

[BS Man about Palms]

Oops. I read Keiths post before Deans made sense, so subtract 1 "don't care" from the "non" California section.

As for me, I go out of my way to not "crown water", but my over night R. humidity is coastal and usually at LEAST 50-60%.

BUT, if it is REALLY dry (sub 20%RH) then I don't care as much, UNLESS its cold too. But a dry, warm morning, I usually just spray anywhere.

Notice all my caveats?

[_Keith]

Oops. I read Keiths post before Deans made sense, so subtract 1 "don't care" from the "non" California section.

As for me, I go out of my way to not "crown water", but my over night R. humidity is coastal and usually at LEAST 50-60%.

BUT, if it is REALLY dry (sub 20%RH) then I don't care as much, UNLESS its cold too. But a dry, warm morning, I usually just spray anywhere.

Notice all my caveats?

Wait a minute. That field wasn't there.

I deleted my earlier post so no others would be confused.

[Don Little]

I voted that I intentionally water the leaves and crown. I don't directly spray water on the crown but like Dean, my irrigation is mostly sprinklers so on the smaller palms I'm sure the crown gets water everyday. During the hot summer months and the Dry Dry Dry (did I say Dry) Santa Ana winds I spray the foilage on my plants which I'm sure subsequently the crowns do get wet. I don't worry however because the humidity is so low that it never has been a problem and I have yet to lose a palm due to it.

[pogobob]

Yes I water up high into the crowns, lotsa stuff going on up there. Litter trapping palms like rhopies and hedies have earthworms working under the crownshafts and the moisture helps breakdown the accumulation. Go visit palms in habitation and it will amaze you how much benificial biology goes on in the palm canopy. I think many palms can feed off this relationship.

[BS Man about Palms]

Oops. I read Keiths post before Deans made sense, so subtract 1 "don't care" from the "non" California section.

As for me, I go out of my way to not "crown water", but my over night R. humidity is coastal and usually at LEAST 50-60%.

BUT, if it is REALLY dry (sub 20%RH) then I don't care as much, UNLESS its cold too. But a dry, warm morning, I usually just spray anywhere.

Notice all my caveats?

Wait a minute. That field wasn't there.

I deleted my earlier post so no others would be confused.

No worries Keith, they were both there for me. I think Deans would have made more sense to me as "the last LINE for"...

But I think my highlighting it accomplishes the same thing.

[Paul The Palm Doctor!]

Matt-

I think you may want to put in that many palms hate to be crown watered (they get it from below), and some love it as it keeps the leaves moist. If you want a list of genera that I think do and don't want crown watering, I would be happy to give it to you.

That crown watering was sure deliterious to the Pigafettas we planted, Christian, though.

Paul

[gsn]

Maybe I'm out in left field,but I always was under the impression that there was a difference between rain water,and tap water which would be used for irrigation,unless one had reclaimed water. And whether one or the other should get into the crown of certain palms?

Naturally rain water is going to get into the crown of palms as it comes from the sky,I didn't think this was a problem unless it was excessive for certain dry condition loving species.

On the other hand I have always heard that tap water in the crowns of certain species was a no-no especially on young seedlings,but even some adolesent,or even more mature palms. Even on some palms that are water loving species.

Not only is this what I have always heard,I have actually read it stated right here on this board by several people.

I beleive this might have been what Christain was talking about in his post,correct me if I wrong,Christain?

[bgl]

No matter what I do, all the rain here falls directly onto the crown and the fronds! And even dry loving species like Dypsis decipiens, Hyphaene, Ravenea xerophylla, Bismarckia, to name a few, are perfectly happy with 12 inches per month (average) falling on them.

[_Keith]

Might there be some relevance here to the native environment of the palm as well.

It would seem to be that it would not only be OK, but also beneficial to regularly water palms from tropical environments from the crown down.

On the other hand, that might not be the case from palms in arid environments that might have evolved in environments with sparse rain. Regular watering of the crown on those species, keyword being regular, might actually create conditions the palm is not well equipped to handle.

I have nothing to back this up. I am just theorizing.

[Palm Hound]

Who has lost palms or had bud rot (or some kind of health problem) due to watering into the crown? Two of my Howea forsterianas had spear rot last winter, which I tributed to a nearby sprinkler , but it's hard to be sure if that watering was the cause of the rot. I will be happy to test two young Ravenea rivularis palms (which I heard are prone to problems from this).

Mattie, when do you need all this data by?

[cfkingfish]

I guess what I am getting at is standing cold water in the crown is bad for any palm species. Adequate rain with proper warmth and drying, such as in Hawaii, is fine. If you try that in a cold spell in CA or even FL you will have sitting water which is a ground for fungal growth. An interesting question is if the litter trapping capabilities of some palms such as Masoala are actually beneficial to that palm's health.

[Tyrone]

I water in the warmer months, and don't often water in winter, unless we have a fortnight without rain at all. My setup is a deep irrigation system that doesn't water the crowns, only the soil, but, during summer and the warm growth season, water in the crown is no problem at all. Water falls from the sky and palms have a way of redirecting the water which generally flows through trapped nutrients on the leaves and on the crown, back to the trunk and onto the roots. I even overhead water my seedlings without any problems. I think these crown rot claims have more to do with the temp the water got down too causing secondary fungal/bacterial infections in the crown. I don't beleive the water is the main cause, it's a temp thing. That's one reason why palms will survive better from cold dry conditions than cold wet conditions. That's my take on it anyway.

Best regards

Tyrone

[MattyB]

Sorry to all. I guess I didn't understand the double poll rules. The data is not going to be accurate so I've asked Dean to delete to poll portion. I love all the comments, caveats and stuff that can be added into the article. But I wanted to do some graphics with the poll results so I'm gonna start some new polls later, please vote again when I do that, your input is vital. Before I do that, anyone wanna add more options to the poll? I was trying to keep the poll relatively simple and then I could expand with people's comments, and exceptions. Thanks and again, sorry. We'll get it right yet.

Mod Edit: Matty, I'm just going to leave it. At this point (IMO) it will mess things up more than it will help.

[bgl]

Matt,

I realize I'm probably in a very small minority, but I don't do ANY watering. I rely 100% on rainfall. And there was no option for me... I'm sure you don't want me to feel left out! (I did click 'don't care', but it didn't seem to quite cover it).

Bo-Göran

[DoomsDave]

I just spray everywhere when I water, which is all year round except when it does rain, which, lately, has been rare. That includes Braheas, Jubaeas, Parajubes, and Dypsis decipiens. Sometimes I use a sprinkler that sprays low, sometimes I use one that sprays high. For certain, water gets into the crowns on all or almost all of my plants at some point, especially when it does rain.

I've never lost a palm to what I know for sure is water coming into the crown from overhead.

I've found that things like pink rot tend to be secondary to other problems, like freeze damage, injury to the bud, etc., which, in some cases might -- maybe -- be exacerbated by water in the crown, particularly in really sensitive species.

As for the rain v. tap water issue, that's a good question, but I'm going to hold off until someone does an actual scientific experiment with controls, etc. Again, that is a good question, but I'll bet it'll be more complicated than meets the eye. For instance, is Florida tap water worse or better than California? (Or Hawaii?) Hmmm. And, if so, why?

This could be a whole series of experiments, ladies and laddies.

It should be pretty easy for someone to play Dr. Mengele with some seedlings of various species to find out if it matters for babies more than big palms to get water in the crowns, though I don't expect anyone to do this with, say Lemurophoenix . . . . (If you want A. cunninghamiana, let me know. . . . )

So, Matty, if you like, feel free to shoot me a PM if you need qualifications, clarifications, or a little schmoozery . . . .

Great Idea for an article! I'm glad I thought of it!

[MattyB]

Matt,

I realize I'm probably in a very small minority, but I don't do ANY watering. I rely 100% on rainfall. And there was no option for me... I'm sure you don't want me to feel left out! (I did click 'don't care', but it didn't seem to quite cover it).

Bo-Göran

Bo, I specifically thought of you and others who might be in a similar situation. That's why I put the "don't care / not an issue" option. I guess "never thought about it" might apply also if it's never occured to you.

[bgl]

Matt,

Thanks for the reply. Good to know I wasn't forgotten...! Maybe I'm just too much into detail and definitions, but palms obviously don't die simply because of water on the crown or the fronds. If that were the case, I'd be losing palms left and right. So there must be another explanation, maybe in combination. As someone mentioned, maybe cold weather so the water just sits there, causing problems. Maybe something else. And it's that other cause that really needs to be explored and explained because almost all palms love water (and that certainly includes water from overhead). The more rain/water they get, the faster they grow (to a point). And I know that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Bo-Göran

[Big Tex]

In summer, I don't worry if the leaves get wet. In cool periods like we are having now, I avoid any overhead irrigation.

I agree. In fact, with our rains here all my palms get a lot of overhead watering. I feel like in the drier month of August, with the temps in the high 90's each day, the palms seem to like a good overhead cool down.

Like you, during the winter I am very careful to get water on the crown and even spray an anti-fungal spray after it rains and gets the crown wet.

[osideterry]

I try not to water the crown, but with a mix of drip and sprinkler heads, it happens.

Doesn't it come down to individual palms? 3 types come to mind:

Bismarckia - water drains out of the open leaf bases. No problem.

Archontophoenix - crownshaft real tight, water can't get inside

Howea - loose open "collar"... water can really sit in there and get nasty

[MattyB]

Matt,

Thanks for the reply. Good to know I wasn't forgotten...! Maybe I'm just too much into detail and definitions, but palms obviously don't die simply because of water on the crown or the fronds. If that were the case, I'd be losing palms left and right. So there must be another explanation, maybe in combination. As someone mentioned, maybe cold weather so the water just sits there, causing problems. Maybe something else. And it's that other cause that really needs to be explored and explained because almost all palms love water (and that certainly includes water from overhead). The more rain/water they get, the faster they grow (to a point). And I know that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Bo-Göran

I wasn't specifically trying to address palm mortality vs. water in the crown, although that's definitely an issue to keep in mind. I was also trying to get a feel for cultural practices and how they might differ from they way we do it in CA. I don't really know exactly what I was looking to find out, but I thought it was an interesing idea to persue. I remember while visiting Dean in Kona we saw several large Royals that were just planted. They had 20 feet or more of trunk and had a water hose ran right up into the crown. I was shocked to see this and Dean said, "I guess you can water into the crown if you don't have to worry about pink rot." That got me wondering about it.

[Tala]

not sure why pink rot would be associated w/ crown moisture, they've no real relation but many palms (perhaps all to a degree) store water. A palm with a bulging portion of the stem is a good example of this, Roystonea certainly qualify. When I install new Sabals I water inside the crown, even in winter (cold) weather. If I know that no one is going to properly look after the palms I just installed I will do the same thing no matter the species (big tree palms only). Normally healthy growing palms take up water via the root system but when you've just moved some big plants and most of the original root system is gone from digging it helps to supplement the palms this way until the roots can take over.

as for normal palm "gardening" I echo what Ray & Christian said. Water sitting in a non-growing palm's crown is not a good idea. But if the palm is still pushing leaves then water away.

[Don_Licuala]

I believe only hurricane-cut palms should be crown-watered.

[Don_Licuala]

Why do the results say

CA Voters = 17

non_CA Voters = 24

Total votes = 51?

[elHoagie]

I've always tried to avoid it, even in the summer. This is another reason why I like drip irrigation...

The only problem is that drip isn't practical for small seedlings when you have hundreds of tiny pots. So, most of my potted palms get overhead water.

[Kris]

Okay ! i have voted that i do not water my palm leaves or its crown..

but last year taking few members suggestions seriously that it is very good to water the crown,i mistakingly tried it on some of my mature specimes of areca palms are now dead..i have the stills i will soon post.and even all my phoenix varities,latanias,and other plants all got severely infested with mealy bug & ants moving freely up & down that infested palms...

take it from me what works for one will not work for us.but my advice will always be do not create artificial rainfall effect for palms that do not need pampering...

Love,

Kris.

[MattyB]

Great stuff guys, thanks. More pros and cons on watering the leaves and into the crowns would be great. I'll have Dean look at the poll and see if it's useable. He seemed to think only one vote got messed up before he fixed my poll options.

[Kim]

I did a null vote, my info is not in the poll. I use two kinds of sprinklers: the pop up type seen in lawns for narrow planting strips along the house, and rainbird type sprinklers mounted on poles with the water exiting at a height of about 40" for my upper garden. Because my palms are still short, this means most get watered in the crown, the leaves drenched. The timer is set to go off at 5:00 am.

I like this method for my small garden and have not had many problems. One smaller Hyophorbe verschaffeltii had some pink gunk in the crown the first year, but I treated it and it came through fine. The next spring it pushed one stunted frond, but has carried on fine since then. I can't draw an absolute correlation between the watering and that event; the other Hyophorbe had no trouble. There are so many plants jammed together in the upper garden that drip would be a nightmare to install and maintain, plus it would miss the hanging orchids and tilandsias. I like the overall application of humidity the sprinklers give the garden, just like a rainshower. My water bill remains quite manageable.

[millic]

Matt, have you read this article before? It was written by Palmbob and talks a little about watering with rainwater vs. tap water in the crown. Nothing too specific but interesting nonetheless.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/1376

[mjff]

I've found watering the crown on most cold hardy species which tend to be palms adapted to dry climates is an unmitigated disaster.

[Jon North Padre Island]

I've always tried to avoid it, even in the summer. This is another reason why I like drip irrigation...

The only problem is that drip isn't practical for small seedlings when you have hundreds of tiny pots. So, most of my potted palms get overhead water.

--------------------

Jack Sayers

As quoted above, I also use drip irrigation year around for everything planted in the ground, but then hand water potted plants - which definitely get water on the leaves and in the crown.

There is no category in the poll for watering the crown of some plants but not others. Back to the experimental design table.

[sonoranfans]

Being in the arizona desert, I very frequently water into the crown in the heat, and a little extra when it has been windy. Brahea armatas love it, L. Chinesis craves it, syagrus love water period, butias, royals, chamaerops, and especially Bismarckias love some "sprinkler rain" at the end of a hot, dry(usually) day, like in the madagascar central plateau. I water crowns as much as 2-3 times a week in the 110F +/- heat. I do not water crowns or fronds in the cold(<60F), and double to triple the watering interval of the drip irrigation. I have had 2 incidences of bud rot or any sign of fungus. They occurred from watering a chamaerops in winter(I was a real newbie years ago, duh!), and another very small(<10" overall in the ground) cerifera lost the tip of the spear to bud rot/freeze in the 20F low of '07. Both plants are growing pretty quickly now.

I suspect that success of watering into the crown depends strongly, with weather, and also with the species. It would seem that since the most effective care would be so dependent on these factors, that a better understanding would include some way to account for them.

[BS Man about Palms]

WELL, I will be testing some theories, unintentionally!! Below, you will see my most expensive palm. A trash can sized Dypsis OCWS. It got rained on. (See the next post)

[BS Man about Palms]

This is where I moved the palm for it to stay for a while. On the east side of my addition. Well, it is dry here most of the time, so I don't think about "runoff". One of my two second floor drains drops right about here. I looked up a couple days ago and thought it might just be on the edge of the flow. (no drain gutters yet), So, just a few minutes ago I was out looking in the addition for water leaks and I peaked my head out to look at the back. THIS PALM WAS HOLDING ABOUT 10 INCHES OF RAIN WATER IN IT! I didn't take time to snap a photo, but I ran out in the rain to "dump it" and move it too.

Not a palm I had intended testing, but I think I need to shoot some fungicide on it in the next few days.....

Edited November 27, 2008 by BS Man about Palms

[MattyB]

That should be fine Bill, especially considering it's rain water. That's proably a welcome flush of salts and gunky stuff. Stay calm!