How can I tell Phx Canariensis from Phx Sylvestris?

[SD_Iconoclast]

I have about six very large and beautiful palm trees on my property that I have always assumed were Phoenix Canariensis.

About a year ago, I started trying to grow palm trees from seed. Among the varieties I am trying to grow are Phoenix Sylvestris (with seeds I purchased),

and Phoenix Canariensis (with seeds from my own trees).

Along the way I lost track of a few trays, and now I cannot remember which were Phoenix Canariensis and which were Phoenix Sylvestris.

I bought a couple books that claimed to be identification guides, but they were no help.

I cannot find any significant difference between their descriptions of these two palms. In fact, now I am questioning if my own trees are Phoenix Sylvestris.

How can I tell the difference between them

1] As seeds

2] As seedlings

3] As adult plants

[BS Man about Palms]

I can only tell the adults. (unless you have a hybrid) The sylvestris has about a 12" trunk and the leaves are a spiny blue/silver/gray. The canary has a trunk 2 to 3 times as wide and green leaves. Overall the canary or CIDP is a MUCH larger palm in all ways , except possibly height.

I think as a seedling the color difference in the leaves is pretty obvious also. (5 gal size)

[Kris]

Dear SD

CIDP is preety huge trunking & a heavy palm in all respects while the P.Sylversters is a little brother of CIDP.While i like the former...

Here are few links where you can see those 2 :

CIDP !

Sylvestris !

Love,

Kris

[merrill]

Kris has provided a perfect differentiation!

merrill

[NBTX11]

Are Sylvestris as hardy as Canariensis. We have lots of mature Canaries around here, but I haven't seen too many Sylvestris if any.

[merrill]

Hi, Jim:

I'd give canariensis a slight advantage in cold hardiness, but in salt free atmosphere, sylvestris is a bit happier.

Best Wishes,

merrill

[NBTX11]

Hi, Jim:

I'd give canariensis a slight advantage in cold hardiness, but in salt free atmosphere, sylvestris is a bit happier.

Best Wishes,

merrill

Considering Canaries survived the 83/89 freezes around here (San Antonio), I would have to agree with you. The only other mature Phx I have seen around here is an occasional Dacty. I'm sure there are others, just haven't seen any.

[DoomsDave]

Sylvestris babies have L O N G seed leaves, about a foot or more; canariensis are much shorter and thicker.

Sylvestris have a fluffier look and definitely whitish, plus a flare at the base of the trunk.

[SD_Iconoclast]

I think as a seedling the color difference in the leaves is pretty obvious also. (5 gal size)

Right now I only have young seedlings (about 6 months) and seeds to compare.

I cannot see any difference in color between the seedlings. They seem to look identical. They even look identical to my Phoenix Dactylifera seedlings.

I guess this means that everyone agrees that the seeds are indistinguishable...

[SD_Iconoclast]

Dear SD

CIDP is preety huge trunking & a heavy palm in all respects while the P.Sylversters is a little brother of CIDP.While i like the former...

Here are few links where you can see those 2 :

CIDP !

Sylvestris !

Love,

Kris

Thanks Kris,

Do you recomends seeds from rarepalmseeds.com?

I have had a terrible germination rate (about 5%) with the seeds from my current supplier.

[Alicehunter2000]

Larger palms are easier to id.....sylvestris will hold many more leaves than a canary. Kris, I believe has had very good results from RPS....how bout it Kris? Also note the following offer from Joseph at Ortinique:

The International Palm Society is pleased to announce an offer from Ortanique to all new IPS members. As most of our Forum members already know, Ortanique, based in the Bay Area in California, is in the business of selling palm seeds all over the world. Ortanique has kindly offered to send out FREE palm seeds to each and every new IPS member, with immediate effect. There is no time limit to this offer, and it will remain in effect for as long as Ortanique is willing to do this. The seeds will be offered with a view to help encourage new members to try growing palms from seeds.

PLEASE NOTE: this is NOT in any way an IPS offer, but is the sole responsibility of Ortanique. As such, all inquiries regarding this offer should be directed to Ortanique, and not to the IPS membership department.

Many members (including myself) can vouch for the quality of seed from Joseph.

[Paul The Palm Doctor!]

Are Sylvestris as hardy as Canariensis. We have lots of mature Canaries around here, but I haven't seen too many Sylvestris if any.

I would say "no" they are not. I've seen canariensis in Zone 8 (USDA) [Mobile, AL]; I have not seen sylvestris in less than Zone 9 USDA.

Paul

[John in Andalucia]

Mine are a few months old, and in this photo you can see a comparison. The seedlings on the left are CIDP, and P. sylvestris are on the right.

The CIDP seedlings have consistent-width strap leaves, and none of them match the width of some of the P. sylvestris seedlings of mine, which seem to vary more so. I find some of them to be indistinguishable from CIDP's during the growth of the first and second leaves, yet they do seem to gain the height quicker during the first leaf stage. It's probably fair to say that a vigorous P. sylvestris seedling will produce a wider strap leaf than it's CIDP counterpart.

The most telling difference I have found, is that by the time both seedlings have fully developed first and second leaves, the P. sylvestris stem is often a tiny bit fatter towards the base, hence, slightly more tapered. It just seems to be ahead of the CIDP, explaining why the seeds are almost identical in form, yet the P. sylvestris seed is greater in length by up to 50%.

[SD_Iconoclast]

Thanks John, that is a great picture.

Unfortunately, none of mine are that old yet. The plants in question just sprouted early this month.

I will keep the picture though.

[Big Tex]

I can only tell the adults. (unless you have a hybrid) The sylvestris has about a 12" trunk and the leaves are a spiny blue/silver/gray. The canary has a trunk 2 to 3 times as wide and green leaves. Overall the canary or CIDP is a MUCH larger palm in all ways , except possibly height.

I think as a seedling the color difference in the leaves is pretty obvious also. (5 gal size)

I have both and this post says it all. Even seedlings are easy to distinguish between the two.

[John in Andalucia]

This shot may back up Bill's theory - I don't know, because I don't have any large seedlings, but having caught the light in these two Phoenix seedlings, I can see a colour difference. There's not a lot else to tell them apart at this stage. It could be fun to have a poll on which is which, but then there are so many more beautiful palms out there..

[Kris]

Dear Friends

these are general varities,their is no complication about it where you buy it but my humble advise is search the local area for these seeds.don't buy them.say if your friend has it in his garden growing them, pick these ripe fruits from the ground and start playing the game..."germination i ment".but just 12 or 20 seeds of these its not a good thing to buy.

only phoenix in friend's place or seen in the wild will let you to improvise which is heavy & healthy..since you can see the specimen before collecting those seeds..i think you understand what iam telling.

in CIDP their is a red fruticas type see it,then their are CIDP hybrids with date palms...etc.

while in Phoenix sylversteris there is a weak trunking type and the heavy trunking one,which some of the sites & members call it as robusta form...

So do a tharough analayasis before venturing what types you want...since i see in one thread one nut from thailand wants his beautifully grown double coconut removed ! that should not happen to us...since we are more palm literate than that guy.

And its quite wise of you to ask before doing something...and here you get a real personal touch from the pro's of this field.

My suggestion will be go out in search of fresh seeds from healthy specimens,once you have it ! go and visit materials needed for germination thread..

And i must tell you all my favouriate palms were collected only after joining this forum,so keep in touch who knows some sweet member will put out an add with the stills of his or her fruiting phoenix with a caption "fresh free seeds available to our forum members"...so i think i have spoken enough,and iam shure you would have clearly understood what you have to do.."just wait and watch"!

Lots of love,

Kris

By the way even i had a Phoenix sylversteris,but their are 2 problems_one is it has become too tall for me to climb ! and another one of my male Date palm is flowering which is touching the P.Sylversteris,so i cannot speak of its purity anymore.

And the fruting season for this year is over ! if not i would have sent you some fresh seeds from our garden..

Some links for you...

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?sh...ic=4118&hl=

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?sh...t=0&start=0

.

[SD_Iconoclast]

Thanks again Kris,

I agree with the policy of finding a local source for the seeds. Not only do you get to see the parent tree, but you get alot of really fresh seeds for free.

In San Diego, the problem with finding Phoenix Sylvestris seeds is that there are so many CIDPs that I cannot pick out a sylvestris.

A while back I saw 1 gallon Phoenix Sylvestris plants at Home Depot (a local big box home improvement store). I took this to mean that I could find them any time I wanted.

This brings up another topic: What is this about hybrids? I was going to buy a few Phx Sylvestris's and plant them next to my big CIDPs.

Is that a bad idea? If so, how far apart do I need to plant them? How can I tell if my tree is producing hybrid seeds?

How can I identify a hybrid tree?

[MattyB]

Contact Alan, he's got some nice P. sylvestris.

Alans profile

[sonoranfans]

I have two "sylvestris" from the same source and they vary in color. Here is the first, colored as you might expect.

[sonoranfans]

and the second colored more like canariensis, but not with the robust trunk of the CIDP. these two are just about identical, except for the color. the color of the darker one seems to be lightening up a bit. Both of these are just 4 months in the ground from 3 gallons. I bought them from a nursery in florida for $12 each. I have seen alot of CIDP's at this age, very common here, and these sylvesters are finer of leaf, obviously thinner of trunk, and notably smaller leafbases.

[Kris]

Dear SD

you have asked wheather its okay to place or grow a pure Sylverstris & a Pure CIDP in ones garden....i.e in future will their seeds be pure form or hybrids...

I have read many articles written by members which hint's that even without a male form of the above,they do hybridise freely...even say if you neighbour has a phoenix of some other kind.

If you are not growing these phoenix for seeds just for ornamental & landscape purpose then you can plant any number of various phoenix in ones garden..

either raised from seeds or buying them in big sized pots..

But i have seen that certain hybrids look more beautiful than the regular phoenix..its just a matter of taste as to what you want to grow & collect...

so before venturing seriously in to any perticular species of phoenix,try to visit few places and see various types avaliable before you finally decide..

And by the way Date palms are also very beautiful,specially one species which i do not know its name...it has a very beautiful massive trunk with scars of the old fronds..and the fruits are also edible...

love,

Kris

[Geoff]

In general if you brush up against one of these large Phoenix leaves and you instantly regret it, you probably located a P sylvestris, dactylifera or theophrastii. If you are not in pain, it was probably a canariensis, reclinata or rupicola. If you are bleeding like a stuck pig, probably P theophrastii. That's been my experience at least. I have yet to brush up against a P lourerei (can never spell that one) so not sure what category of harm that one is in... though I suspect it is in the painful but non-hemorrhaging one

[SD_Iconoclast]

you have asked wheather its okay to place or grow a pure Sylverstris & a Pure CIDP in ones garden....i.e in future will their seeds be pure form or hybrids...

I have read many articles written by members which hint's that even without a male form of the above,they do hybridise freely...even say if you neighbour has a phoenix of some other kind.

And by the way Date palms are also very beautiful,specially one species which i do not know its name...it has a very beautiful massive trunk with scars of the old fronds..and the fruits are also edible...

Are you saying that Phoenix Canariensis will hybridize with Phoenix Dactylifera? I had not even considered that.

Are you referring to the edible date palm, Phoenix Dactylifera?

[SD_Iconoclast]

In general if you brush up against one of these large Phoenix leaves and you instantly regret it, you probably located a P sylvestris, dactylifera or theophrastii. If you are not in pain, it was probably a canariensis, reclinata or rupicola. If you are bleeding like a stuck pig, probably P theophrastii. That's been my experience at least. I have yet to brush up against a P lourerei (can never spell that one) so not sure what category of harm that one is in... though I suspect it is in the painful but non-hemorrhaging one

I can testify that Phoenix Canariensis can be pretty darn dangerous. The long thin spines are almost invisible when pointing at you. I had one stick about 4 inches deep into my leg. WOOOOWWWW did that hurt.

I was just grateful it did not stick me in the eye.

[Kris]

Are you saying that Phoenix Canariensis will hybridize with Phoenix Dactylifera? I had not even considered that.

Are you referring to the edible date palm, Phoenix Dactylifera?

Dear SD

Yes,you heard me right...even i have a Hybrid CIDPxDactylifera,this sapling came to me from a close friend of this forum.and the leaves are like regular CIDP at the moment but its grouth rate is preety slow as a Dactylifera.

its still in a pot only this summer i intend to pot it in a big plastic barrel.

My suggestion will be buy ready mades from reputed nursery guys if you have funds to spare or even transplant phoenix of your choice,since some would have planted these jamboos near their house or pathway..so they may be avaliable free at times,only digging labour charges & transporting charges you will have to bear..

But before venturing into a CIDP,gather information about the fungus infection prevailing in your area.since if that infection is already in your neighbours garden,then it might come to your CIDP too !

But i love only the CIDP's then comes the heavy trunking date palms...as matter of choice ! but taste can differ.

lots of love,

Kris

And by the way i was told that phoenix do not need a male phoenix to hybridise with other fruting phoenix varities..