Transplant time in So-Cal

[palmazon]

I'm looking for input as to when is the best time of year to transplant; we're moving a bunch of palms from Gary Wood's place in Fallbrook to Ashton's garden in Palos Verdes; most of the palms are small enough to move without heavy machinery, but we'll probably use a Bobcat or backhoe to facilitate the operation. Ken Johnson gave me extensive advice on root pruning and boxing plants (thank you, KJ), and I am already inclined towards the conventional wisdom regarding planting early in the warmer months (especially after planting late in '06 just before the Big Freeze). It's August 12 on the other side of the globe - what're the odds of 100% success this far along in the summer?

[DoomsDave]

Why are you . . . .

Whatever . ...

How'd you pick the species and their importance?

[joe_OC]

Wow...big undertaking. Aren't Kings and Rhopies difficult to transplant?

[LJG]

I would wait on some of those. What's the hurry? That Jubaeopsis caffra is the nicest specimen I have seen in terms of color. I would say irreplaceable. I would use Ken's technique and slowly dig this plant. Cut a few sides now, and more in early spring. I think Ashtons main issue with transplanting this late is he is on the coast so there are not many warm days really left.

[palmazon]

Dave - don't analyze

now, move away from the keyboard...

[_Keith]

  palmazon said:

Dave - don't analyze

now, move away from the keyboard...

Dave is the keyboard.

Remember Tron?

[palmazon]

was that Jeff or Lloyd Bridges???

[_Keith]

A very young Jeff.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084827/

[Urban Rainforest]

Danny, I have first hand experience in this as I went through something similar when we moved from our first house to this house. Root pruning is good if you have time but I did not have time to root prune everything. It was Aug. when we finally decided for sure we were going to move so I ordered up 10 yds. of my palm special potting soil, went and bought a bunch of 20 gal. containers and started digging and digging and digging. I ended up transplanting aprox. 30 palms and about 10 cycads. I only lost 2 palms and they were already struggling and no Cycads. Of the list there are some surprises that many said could'nt be moved.

Parajubaea Coccoides

Brahea Armata

Jubaeopsis Caffra

Dypsis Decipiens

Some of the others I moved without problem were

Roystonea Borinqueana

Roystonea Regia

Dypsis Leptocheilos

Rhopalostylis Sapida

Rhopalostylis Baueri

Jubaea Chilensis

I believe Aug. was a very good time to transplant as most of these palms threw 2 more fronds before winter. Many of these palms are the biggest palms in my garden today and several of them are seeding! It was definately worth the effort. So what palms are you transplanting? Good luck

Steve

[palmazon]

  LJG said:

I would wait on some of those. What's the hurry? That Jubaeopsis caffra is the nicest specimen I have seen in terms of color. I would say irreplaceable. I would use Ken's technique and slowly dig this plant. Cut a few sides now, and more in early spring. I think Ashtons main issue with transplanting this late is he is on the coast so there are not many warm days really left.

I dunno - he had about 20 minutes over 75f last week...

seriously, though, has it been a mild summer so far or am I just imagining it?

[palmazon]

  Steve from San Diego said:

Danny, I have first hand experience in this as I went through something similar when we moved from our first house to this house. Root pruning is good if you have time but I did not have time to root prune everything. It was Aug. when we finally decided for sure we were going to move so I ordered up 10 yds. of my palm special potting soil, went and bought a bunch of 20 gal. containers and started digging and digging and digging. I ended up transplanting aprox. 30 palms and about 10 cycads. I only lost 2 palms and they were already struggling and no Cycads. Of the list there are some surprises that many said could'nt be moved.

Parajubaea Coccoides

Brahea Armata

Jubaeopsis Caffra

Dypsis Decipiens

Some of the others I moved without problem were

Roystonea Borinqueana

Roystonea Regia

Dypsis Leptocheilos

Rhopalostylis Sapida

Rhopalostylis Baueri

Jubaea Chilensis

I believe Aug. was a very good time to transplant as most of these palms threw 2 more fronds before winter. Many of these palms are the biggest palms in my garden today and several of them are seeding! It was definately worth the effort. So what palms are you transplanting? Good luck

Steve

this is what I'm after - practical information

I listed most of the palms in the poll title/content slot

[Urban Rainforest]

Danny, I just saw yer list. Of those I have transplanted Dypsis Baronii, Pritchardia Guadi Chaudi and Archontophoenix Tuckerii without any problems. Some say it's snake oil but I use superthrive on ALL my transplants and sick plants and have had great results. probably safer than b1.

Steve

[palmazon]

I, too, keep a jug of the snake oil handy

[palmazon]

Steve - did you put them immediately in the ground or keep them in containers for a spell?

[BS Man about Palms]

Having been to all of the above places, I would root prune and side box now, then do the early pull (April) next year, then plant then too. (1st choice)

(2nd choice) Would be to do the best/fastest root prune you can (only if you have too) then take the boxes to A's place and not plant them until next spring Yes, I know Mr A will love that!

As said before, "plant high at the final destination, lest the death be swift again..."

[palmazon]

I don't want to influence the poll by revealing GTLevine's or Don Hodel's suggestions - I'll wait until the voting is over

it's bad enough I shared Ken's advice

you don't think Steve's experience is compelling?

[paulgila]

roystonea regia can be transplanted,mattyb & i have done a few.

ok,no snickering....

[palmazon]

back to bed, Bali-boy

[Urban Rainforest]

  palmazon said:

Steve - did you put them immediately in the ground or keep them in containers for a spell?

Danny, I'm glad you brought that up as this is very Important. I did not plant anything until the following April and planted the rest over a period of about a year. If your not in a hurry it would not hurt to slowly root prune and transplant next Spring. If you choose to transplant now use a very good draining mix and water the pots several times the day you dig to get out all the air pockets. Then mark all the spears and water sparingly until you see new growth. Then treat as any other potted palm until next spring.Is Ashton ready to have an instant container ranch ?

Steve

[BS Man about Palms]

Container Ranches grow on you after awhile....

[palmazon]

surely there are more than 6 southern Californians with an opinion on this endeavor (?)

actually, we'll consider input from every corner of the globe - this'll be the transplant Olympics...

[BS Man about Palms]

  palmazon said:

surely there are more than 6 southern Californians with an opinion on this endeavor (?)

actually, we'll consider input from every corner of the globe - this'll be the transplant Olympics...

Wouldn't local input be some of the most important?

[palmazon]

sure Bill, but I'm trying to keep this thread on top

and how many locals have moved palms this big?

[BS Man about Palms]

Danny-

I agree the "local big RARE palm moving contingent" is small. Keep in mind the growing conditions currently and in the future should be just as important.

They are going from a hard DG based soil that gets very hot and dry in the summer and quite cool in the winter to a place that has a hard clay pan soil that RARELY rises above 80F for any length of time and stays on the cool side for most of the year.

For many of those palms that took years and years to get to that size, whats another 6-8 months?

Have you tried to find who was the mover for the "other" big Jubeopsis, Catamaran, Hilton??

PS- thread bumping is cool. All the cool kids do it.

[elHoagie]

Why not root prune now while the soil is as warm is it gets all year, then transplant in the spring so the palms have as long as possible to acclimate at the new location before winter hits? If you move now without root pruning the palms will be under a lot of stress, and they'll only have a couple months of warm weather before the long cold winter starts...

If you're anxious to have something to show for your purchase, maybe move a couple of the smaller, hardier palms now? Or maybe purchase some container grown palms and plant those now?

[MattyB]

I'm thinking the same thing as Jack. Dig the baronii, Pritchardia, Rhopies, and Syagrus now. No root prune, just do it. Our hottest weather is still ahead of us. Late August and September are usually very hot. Our cooler weather usually hits around Halloween. I've had no problems digging 20 gal sizes of the aforementioned palms. They seem hardy and I suspect they can begin a recovery this summer.

Root prune, just a bit, not enough to stress before winter, the Jubeopsis, Ravenea (fat roots no likey breakage), and Archontophoenix. Then root prune majorly in spring, wait a month and dig those guys in the heat of June or July of next year. In the meantime, dig the holes for these three sensitive palms and fill them with manure, gypsum, and orginic matter and worms. See what a year and some worms can do for you. Maybe the soil will open up. I'm sure Ashton won't mind the large holes and caution tape for a year.

I'm no expert. Don't try this at home.

[Ashton]

  Dave from So-Cal said:

How'd you pick the species and their importance?

It's quite simple really. Gary said "All my plants are for sale. Would you like to buy some?"

I said, "I'll take this one and this one and this one and....." If I picked it, it was important. I even took your advice from 2006 and grabbed some Rhopalostylis.

I then handed him a box of money (with CA sales tax added of course).

[DoomsDave]

  Ashton said:

  Dave from So-Cal said:

How'd you pick the species and their importance?

It's quite simple really. Gary said "All my plants are for sale. Would you like to buy some?"

I said, "I'll take this one and this one and this one and....." If I picked it, it was important. I even took your advice from 2006 and grabbed some Rhopalostylis.

I then handed him a box of money (with CA sales tax added of course).

Sorry for the somewhat snarky-appearing reply to Palmazon's query.

Your answer clarifies things.

And, in the best lawyerly style I have the answer . . . .

It depends!

On various factors.

Keep in mind that not all palms like warm weather, some grow faster than others, some take disturbance better than others.

My general rule has been: If you have the time, take the time. I'm sure Ken Johnson the pro of pros on this point, will agree. Something that's really slow IMHO will really appreciate more time, because it won't bounce back as fast. For sure, take time with Jube-opsis.

The general problem for all of them (and all plants in general) is to get enough root mass to supply the leaves with roots, without digging a rootball so enormous everyone gets hernias, and the rootball is impossible to transport, and then you have to dig backbone-destroying holes to plant in, or hire cranes, sigh, so much work.

Huge rootballs also tend to fall apart. Up to a point, smaller is better. The secret is having lots of new snubby roots growing out from the "root plate" at the base of the trunk before they get so long they poke through the dirt of the rootball. As soon as you stick it in the ground in its new home, the properly rootballed palm will root right in, and won't sulk (too badly) from having its lower roots insulted by the move.

I've had good luck with this method:

Dig a trench about one spade-depth deep all around the trunk, about a foot away, then wait at least a month, then dig down again another spade-depth. If the soil's super hard, wet it and wait a day before digging. If you can, after waiting another month, go down another spade depth, and this time wait at least another month, maybe more. before you move it.

It took me a about four or five months to move the arenga I posted earlier, but I was able to do it single-handedly with a small, easy-to-handle rootball, and now it's rooted in like Flynn. It's a slow palm, too, and I was really worried I'd lose it.

I DIDN'T follow that method with a big clump of Rhapis and I killed it.

Take time.

Obviously, if the bulldozers are coming up over the hill, the calculation's completely different, but unless Gary's getting ready to move now, you should have plenty of time.

I'd take time on all the ones in the list, including the A. maxima since I hear they're tough to move. The Rhopies really like cooler weather and I'm sure they'll like your place much better than Gary's furnace. I've found Syagrus to be really slow, except for queens, but if i'm wrong about S. oleracea, well let me know.

D. baronii are reliable but not that fast, ditto for pritchies.

If you don't like the idea of moving them, say in October, I'd wait till March.

Remember to keep the trenches for the rootballs free of dirt so they don't re-root and defeat their purpose.

Hope this helps, keep us apprized.

If you like, ask more questions, or shoot me a PM.

best

dave

[DoomsDave]

Having just read steve's reply, you could probably combine my approach and his and get everything moved in a couple months.

Maybe I'm paranoid, but I'd really rather wait.

[BS Man about Palms]

I see 8 are in favor of the "full speed ahead" vote, and is that full speed ahead on "dig AND plant" now, or just full speed ahead on dig?

If the folks are on the "dig and plant now" vote for "aye", I wonder how many are in roughly the same location as Ashton relative to the coast?

I keep falling back on a conversation I had with Dean (our Mod) as he was mentioning the things he had learned about his old "coastal Encinitas" garden, some of which was that most plants there need full sun, despite what the "Palms for Southern California " guide might say. Its almost always cool there and MAYBE 2 months a year that it "might" get over 80F. I am paraphrasing here, but overall, he noted that "at least 90% of the members of Southern Cal Palm society live at a mile from the coast, and as you move inland, things are MUCH different."

Forgive me for lobbying hard, I just want a happy ending. Not massage parlour style either.

[Walter John]

AYE captain, stop wasting time and do it now. Dig and plant, use truckloads of seaweed solution water, and Bob will be your uncle.

[palmazon]

stay outta this, you Southern Hemispheroid - you're heading into spring

& I'm Jewish, so no Uncle Bob - Uncle Shlomo, maybe

all joking aside, if I were attempting this for myself, I'd dig everything now except the Pondo - root prune a side every 2 months and pluck it out next May

[palmazon]

I see 20 individuals have cast a vote, but I only count 12 responders - and 2 of those are from far-off climes

what's up with THAT?

[Ashton]

Thanks for all of the great responses. Some of this might end up in a future Palms Society of Southern California Journal (and, by the way, we're always looking for articles you might wish to write on any variety of Palm topics).

I'm curious if there is a consensus about which seasons fosters the most root growth. I've heard it said that fronds grow primarily in the warmer months and roots grow in the cooler months. I realize that this might vary to a degree depending on the individual palm type, but is there a generalization on this topic. If most root growth takes place in cooler months, perhaps it would be best to dig the sides now and band a box around the sides. The cut roots could be catarized now (alum or blow torch), grow until March, and then we could return, cut the bottom, and lift them out for immediate transplant. These palms, incidently, will require boxes in the 30 to 42" size. The Jubeopsis might take a 60 to 72" box.

Bill Sanford raises a good point. I'm a stones throw from the Pacific and it's only hot a couple months out of the year, usually August and September.

Thanks again for the input. Not withstanding the aforementioned, thanks for yours too Dave :-)

Ashton

[LJG]

Ashton, here is a PDF I have stored on my PC. I think this is about the best advice you can get. Two weeks ago when we were talking on the phone about this and you thought I was super smart, you now will see where I got my info.

HodelPRG.pdf

  Ashton said:

Thanks for all of the great responses. Some of this might end up in a future Palms Society of Southern California Journal (and, by the way, we're always looking for articles you might wish to write on any variety of Palm topics).

I'm curious if there is a consensus about which seasons fosters the most root growth. I've heard it said that fronds grow primarily in the warmer months and roots grow in the cooler months. I realize that this might vary to a degree depending on the individual palm type, but is there a generalization on this topic. If most root growth takes place in cooler months, perhaps it would be best to dig the sides now and band a box around the sides. The cut roots could be catarized now (alum or blow torch), grow until March, and then we could return, cut the bottom, and lift them out for immediate transplant. These palms, incidently, will require boxes in the 30 to 42" size. The Jubeopsis might take a 60 to 72" box.

Bill Sanford raises a good point. I'm a stones throw from the Pacific and it's only hot a couple months out of the year, usually August and September.

Thanks again for the input. Not withstanding the aforementioned, thanks for yours too Dave :-)

Ashton

[palmazon]

I'll boil down Hodel's article: root pruning probably has little merit since new growth will likely be damaged during boxing, extraction, and transport; any rootball > 24" from the trunk is unnecessary, and most often 12'' is sufficient; in Southern California, the best time to dig/transplant is May

it's alright Len - reading & quoting someone else doesn't make you any less super smart

[osideterry]

I voted to wait based on the climate difference the palms have to adapt to. Oh, and every time I rush things it goes wrong. I held back from posting because my own experience is dealing with 1-15 gallon palms, and only a few small transplants (in the same yard).

[BS Man about Palms]

So- From what I read of Hodels article, what I said is right.

Ashton and I have similar climes, thats why I'm paying close attention. I think I have maybe gone over 80F 3 times this year so far?

[Palm Hound]

If next fall and winter are exceptionally warm, you should transplant now. Do you like playing Russian roulette?

[palmazon]

  Ashton said:

Thanks again for the input. Not withstanding the aforementioned, thanks for yours too Dave :-)

Ashton

I tried to warn you - he's a bad apple and he's rotten to the core