City water

[MattyB]

Sometimes I hear speculation about how our city's water is to blame for brown tipping and other maladies.  Here in Southern California we have very hard water heavily laden with minerals from the Colorado River.  Add to that the flouride, chlorine, and whatever else the city puts in and now you got some stuff that could potentially effect the growth of plants.  I decided to check the pH of my water coming out of the tap.  Any guesses?  Ok, I'll tell you:  8!  And 8 is as high as my guage goes so maybe it was 8.2 or something, I don't know.  I attribute this to chlorine which is highly basic in nature.  What pH does water have to be to start hurting palms?  I have a little pond/stream thing that I keep clear by periodically adding bleach to.  I'm wondering if it rains and overflows will the water with a pH of 8-9 hurt the palms or only if it happens for an extended period of time?  Sorry, I'm sort of rambling but I guess what I'm trying to ask is:  What is your experience with the pH and general make up of your city's water?

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Hi Matt,

Different palms like different salt and mineral content

Your water is very different to ours. The effect on chamaedorea appears to emphasize this. If anyone has seen Chamaedorea tuerckeimii in socal most have 2 tiny leaves. although there appears to be  a few exceptions on some species in the genre.

www.pacsoa.org.au/palms/Chamaedorea/tuerckheimii.html

We have chlorine and flouride but probably different levels in different parts of the country.

you will have healthy genre there we probably have trouble with, for the opposite reason, (they thrive in your water)

So if you want chamaedorea to look good buy a water purifier if you can afford it. (Here is another idea send your seeds to jason, his always look good, Oh well .i am sure he liked the try)

regards

colin

[Kamipalms]

Hey Matty,

You could add something like this to your irrigation system..

carbon filter

Or better yet try this..

Reverse Osmosis fliter

Our "city" water is high in chlorine but Ph is around 7 so it's not that bad except it does leave a whitish stain on the  entire leaf species.

Our gardens are watered using underground water which is around Ph 8 and high in Calcium along with limestone based beach sand for gardens increases Ph to somewhere around 8-9...... hence the reason for only growing "Island" palms like Howea , Pritchardia , Dictyosperma, Hyophorbe and so on.

Chammies and potted stuff receive rain water when possible then "city" water.

Young seedlings/plants receive rain water when collected then condenced water when the stored rain water runs out.

heres some results..

Geonoma baculifera from Gileno  

Cham deckeriana

Notice all of the  brown tips ???

Jason

[surgeon83]

The pH of city water should actually be between 9.5 and 10.5.  It sounds really high, but its true.  I worked in a water quality testing lab for the water department for years.  The pH straight from the Missouri river was 8.3.  

The concentration of fluoride, at least in Missouri, is required to be between 0.9 ppm and 1.10 ppm, whereas straight from the river it was between about 0.3 and 0.4 ppm.  

Chlorine was supposed to be between 2 and 3ppm.  

Ammonia is added up to about 1ppm in order to bind the chlorine and keep and active reserve so it doesn't dissipate as quickly.  

As soon as the water hits the ground and starts trickling down, it immediately takes characteristics of local river water.  Whenever there was a water leak from a line of finished water, they would take a sample of the running water (whether it was in a puddle or trickling down a sidewalk or whatever) and send it to the lab for testing.  Leak samples always had chlorine of 0, ammonia of 0.06ppm (same as river), fluoride of 0.4, and pH around 8.4-8.9.  

The point is I think your soil has the capacity to change the composition of the water on its own before it even gets to the plants (certainly kills the chlorine instantly).  I highly doubt that brown tips are caused by your city water.  In fact, I would recommend using MORE water if your plants are turning brown!    :laugh:

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

Hey guys, I deal with water quality and horticultural endeavors for a living.  The alkalinity of the water is more important than the pH.  Here's why.  Alkalinity is a measure of the carbonates and bi-carbonates a water carries.  pH is a ratio of the balance of hydrogen ions and hydroxyl ions in a solution.  For reference, remember that dolomitic limestone is a blend of Calcium carbonate and Magnesium carbonate.  (There are other carbonate and bicarbonate compounds.) Lime drives pH upward and if the water source has large volumes of carbonates and/or bi-carbonates, it's just like adding lime each time you water.   As the carbonates and bi-carbonates react with other compounds in the soil, they release hydroxyl groups and the pH rises.  The higher the alkalinty, the more pronounced the affect.  The problem is that as pH rises, micronutrients like iron, manganese, boron, etc., change form from something a plant can absorb to something they cannot absorb.  The plant then begins to show symptoms caused by a lack of whatever nutrient they cannot extract in the appropriate quantity.  Some plants are extremely adept at extracting the nutrients they need.  Those island palms referenced above might be good examples.   Some plants are extremely inefficient at extracting those nutrients and must have exacting conditions (think azalea).  The problem with Chlorine and Florine is the change form to Chloride and Floride which can cause brown leaf tips.  However, most plants are not sensitive enough for city water to cause damage  (an exception would be Dracaena, and likely, some rainforest plants...including palms).  In addition, some city water sources contain damaging salts like Sodium Chloride (table salt).  In the west, it's common to have high alkalinity and salts, a difficult combination.  My guess is your growth issues are probably related to the alkalinity and the salts, not directly to pH.  A testing lab that evaluates water quality for horticultural purposes could clear that up.   You can send 8oz of water to The Scotts TEsting Lab, 624 Peach Street, Lincoln NE 68502.  Include a check for $36 and a brief note explaining what you want (a standard water test) and approximately 48 hours after they recieve it, you will be able to pull your results up online.

[Dypsisdean]

Both Keith and Brian have provided accurate information. They have also illustrated that water chemistry is an extremely complicated science. Too complicated to cover in detail here. However the message is this. It is the salts and minerals in the water you irrigate with that causes problems for plants, not the Ph or chlorine.

The effects of repeatedly adding water to a container or to the ground is almost identical to what happens in a swimming pool over time. As someone in the pool business for a long time, perhaps I could help explain what happens in a simpler manner.

As water evaporates from a pool, or your soil, all of the salts and minerals are left behind. So when you irrigate, or add more water to your pool, you are essentially adding more salts and minerals each time (unless you are using distilled water). In a pool, over time, the alkalinity increases, but more importantly the total dissolved solids (TDS) increases as well. Technically these two terms are directly related, but not the same.

The same thing is happening in your soil. If you use rain water or another source low in TDS there is never a problem. However, in SoCal where municipal water is very high in TDS (hard water), it is definitely a problem. It is not the chlorine or the Ph.

In a pool (or pond) there even comes a point when the concentration of minerals becomes so great it can no longer remain in solution and begins to form on the plaster and tile. Well before this happens the pool should be drained (or ponds partially drained) and filled with fresh water. This is much more problematic in your soil. There is only one solution. Since your soil cannot be drained, the minerals need to be flushed down through the root zone, while still in solution, with a heavy rain or a periodic very heavy irrigation.

If you constantly irrigate so the water only penetrates the first several inches of soil, all of the salts and minerals will accumalate there, and this is what causes the tip burn so commonly seen in SoCal. Aside from being free, rinsing the soil is actually the most beneficial result of heavy rain in SoCal. This is common knowledge for any commercial grower of salt sensitive crops such as avocado.

For those still with me, this phenomenon can be readily observed in indoor plants that are kept in saucers. If the salts are never allowed to be rinsed through the root zone, they can actually be seen forming around the bottom rim of the saucer, resulting in tattered brown tipped house plants.

[Dypsisdean]

And for those in SoCal, another interesting point.

Because the TDS reading is so crucial to pool and spa maintenance, I have taken readings in many different water districts over many years. I can tell you it varies considerably from district to district and from season to season. The major culprit is the Colorado River. Because it flows long distances over many limestone formations, it is very high in TDS. That is the main reason it is usually mixed with water from No. California. Water from NoCal is much better water for plants. Also, many districts have access to local lake water during certain times of the year.

So during times of drought in NoCal and SoCal, the water is almost 100% Colorado River water. During these times the TDS is so high, it is at levels where other areas of the country begin draining their pools due to excessive TDS. And with rainfall almost non existent, it is torture for your salt sensitive palms.

[Walter John]

which is why I bought a rainwater tank. the difference in palm growth is phenomenal.

I've used rainwater excuslively now for almost 12 months.

[Dypsisdean]

Wal,

I don't think I have ever talked to anyone who uses R.O. or rainwater that hasn't commented on how much better everything grows and looks.

[Dave-Vero]

Keith in SoJax reminds me of a Jacksonville neighbor across the street who thought shallow well water was much better do DRINK than the city water from deep wells (the Floridan Aquifer).  The shallow stuff was indeed good for irrigation, but it must have been loaded with stuff deposited in the 1950s.  Maybe DDT and Chlordane.  And probably lots of bacteria (the neighborhood was built circa 1950).

In Vero Beach, plants seem to thrive better on rain than city water.

[BS Man about Palms]

If we could manage more than 6-8" of rain a year, I might get a storage tank!

I have given some serious thought to saving my air conditioner and dehumidifier condensation runoff though! ???

[DoomsDave]

Hmm.

If my memory serves, pure water is about a 7 PH-wise.  8 sounds par for the course here in la Tierra d'La La, since we steal our water from up north (owens valley) from which it runs through concrete canals, and is alky to start with, with "River" water even more so.  

The PH scale is from 0 to 14, acid to alkaline.  

Some palms are sensitive to salts, particularly if drainage isn't good.

dave

[MattyB]

Thanks for all the great info guys.  Ok, one more question:  (Dean I think your pool/pond experience will help with this one) If I add bleach to my pond/stream it removes the algae almost immediately.  Algae is a plant right?  So if it anileates (oh man should-a gone with a word I know) the algae at relatively low concentrations, how can it not be harmful if spilled over the pond and into planters w/ palms and other plants?  Do planters that get splashed with pool water suffer?  I don't seem to remember them looking bad.....hmmmmmmmm

[Dypsisdean]

Matt,

I'll have to explain all that stuff to you next time we talk. Its not a short sweet answer. And I think most would just skip a semi long explanation.

BTW---I'm in town until the 14th. Let me know if you're in the neighborhood.