Pigafetta is the Miami, FL area?

[Paul The Palm Doctor!]

To my fellow Palmiers out there:

I have never grown Pigafetta here, 20 miles from the Atlantic Ocean, in Zone 10 B. Will it not winter well here? I never see them around the neighbourhood so I guess that PERHAPS, indicates they are too cold tender for this region, no?

RSVP me, so I can prepare for the death of these palms after around Christmas time.

Thanks very much.

Pablo

[epicure3]

I thought I saw pics of someone growing a piggy somewhere in So. Fla. Maybe worth a try considering how warm the winters have been in your neck of the woods.

[Ken Johnson]

I am betting on DOA even before XMas.

That being said there are some around that have dodged the cold for a long time now but you never know....

[Jason in Orlando]

I thought P. elata was supposed to be somewhat more cold hardy... and that it was not so much the cold that would do that one in, but the wind.

Jason

[waykoolplantz]

I'd take that bet

Jeff in Pinecrest has one doing very well as well

[Walter John]

I'm in for a buck !

[EllisB]

To my fellow Palmiers out there:

I have never grown Pigafetta here, 20 miles from the Atlantic Ocean, in Zone 10 B. Will it not winter well here? I never see them around the neighbourhood so I guess that PERHAPS, indicates they are too cold tender for this region, no?

RSVP me, so I can prepare for the death of these palms after around Christmas time.

Thanks very much.

Pablo

We have about 30 Pigafetta elata at the nursery in 3gal up to 15gal. We lost a few when the temp dropped to about 32 degrees. The rest came out with a little burn and now are looking great. I have one in the ground and it seems if you keep it out of the wind and keep it hydrated well you should have some success.

[Rusty on Pine Is.]

I am betting on DOA even before XMas.

That being said there are some around that have dodged the cold for a long time now but you never know....

Aw no, Ken....tell me it aint true.....mush by Christmas???????

[bubba]

Pigafetta's fail for other reasons than cold in Florida.In South Africa and Australia they grow fine in cooler, drier conditions.I believe they favor a Med. climate over A Carribean.They do grow in Florida and numerous Specimens can be Found.A Pigfetta was planted by David Fairchild at Fairchild Gardens and it grew to maturity but never seemed to enjoy the High Humidity.

[JakeK]

Pigafetta's fail for other reasons than cold in Florida.In South Africa and Australia they grow fine in cooler, drier conditions.I believe they favor a Med. climate over A Carribean.They do grow in Florida and numerous Specimens can be Found.A Pigfetta was planted by David Fairchild at Fairchild Gardens and it grew to maturity but never seemed to enjoy the High Humidity.

Curious as to why you believe Pigafettas prefer a Mediterranean climate over a Caribbean climate? They are native to tropical rain forests, and I would think a climate with warmer temperatures and higher rainfall would be more conducive to growth and better health than a climate with wet cool winters and dry hot summers.

[tim_brissy_13]

Pigafettas grow well in Cairns, Australia, so do enjoy tropical heat and humidity. The one at Fairchild must have had other problems, they are known to hate strong winds...

[Jeff Searle]

Cold, Cold Cold.......thats whats going to kill them. Some will grow a few years here, but only because we have some mild winters. Now, maybe one planted in a very protected spot, real close to the coast, yes, due to it's rapid growth, I could see one getting up to around 20' tall. But this isn't a real good example is it? So, it's all how you want to judge it.

Jeff

[bubba]

Riffle and Craft In the Encyclopedia of Cultivated Palms State in pertinent part:

Pigfetta has reportedly withstood temperatures in the upper 20's with little damage in a protected site in Miami,Florida.It cannot be expected,however,to withstand such temperatures regularly as it is doubtless similar to the Coconut in that it stops photosynthesizing with temperatures below 60F.These palms are reportedly shallow rooted....and need protection from high winds.

The comparison to the Coconut in tolerance along with the Caveat regarding High Winds gives the clue to our problem here.It has far less to do with cold temperatures and much more to do with High Winds.Need to find an area shielded from High Winds and that is hard to do in South Florida!

[newcal]

Hi guys, i am currently growing 3 Pigafettas here on the Gold Coast south of Brisbane ( Queensland ,Australia). I think a number of Factors play an important part on whether or not your piggie is going to survive.1 full sun 2 constant moisture 3 wind protection(hot and cold) 4 genetics ( strong and healthy stock). The tallest piggy i have is now pushing 20 feet and has endured last year's record cold of 3c for this area showing only slight leaf burn. They are all P.elata's ( supposedly more cold tender than it's highland brother P.filaris. If this is the case try to get your hands on some P. filaris seeds. I hope this sheds some light on the subject......Cheers Mike Green (Newcal)

[TikiRick]

I purchased on at the last Palm Show and Sale in March at Fairchild. I have in a 5 gallon container now in a protected spot. I hope to plant it out as an experiment this summer...but I know that the wind is the killer. It does get pretty beat up in the slightest wind.

[Daryl]

They have quite 'soft' tissue. Easily damaged in a big blow. I have seen the remains of many in nth Queensland after cyclones...they seem to blow over very easily as well. That would be the biggest risk in southern Florida with all of the hurricanes you get there. I think the actual climate there would be fine...apart from the 100 year cold snaps. The beauty is that they grow so fast you could just keep re-planting in between 'events'.

Aside from that, they need some shelter to look good. If they are getting hammered constantly by trade winds / sea breezes / dry interior winds then they don't look so crash hot. Maybe in a flat landscape they would be too exposed to look their best.

Daryl

[TikiRick]

They have quite 'soft' tissue. Easily damaged in a big blow. I have seen the remains of many in nth Queensland after cyclones...they seem to blow over very easily as well. That would be the biggest risk in southern Florida with all of the hurricanes you get there. I think the actual climate there would be fine...apart from the 100 year cold snaps. The beauty is that they grow so fast you could just keep re-planting in between 'events'.

Aside from that, they need some shelter to look good. If they are getting hammered constantly by trade winds / sea breezes / dry interior winds then they don't look so crash hot. Maybe in a flat landscape they would be too exposed to look their best.

Daryl

Daryl,

I agree....however, our cold snaps are far from being 100 years apart. Most winters it does dip into the high 30's in the interior sections and low 40's along the coastline. And this is during most "mild" winters...it usually doesn't last but for one, maybe two nights.

We always ask ourselves if we had to pick: a) hard freeze hurricane

Most of us would chose 'a' agreeing that it is the least devastating.

Edited June 23, 2008 by TikiRick

[Ken Johnson]

It is fun to try easy to grow palms like piggies and in South Florida it is easy to germinate thousands of seed as they come up easily.

Some folks have indeed done this over the years, just like many of the other palms that we commonly see in So Fla.

But we almost never see piggies. Why? It gets to dam cold and kills them. End of discussion?

[NBTX11]

Excuse my ignorance, so am I to understand they can't tolerate 1 or 2 nights at 40F/4C each winter? Seeing the average low in winter in Miami is in the low 60sF/15-18C, these must be Extremely tender.

[cfkingfish]

The Pigafettas at Fairchild fried in '89, hitting 26 and 28F on consecutive days. That being said I had many live through the cold windy night this past winter in East Venice at 29F and 60 km/h winds. They don't like extremes of anything except water. They are babied in their habitat like many true tropicals.

[Daryl]

Yeah, I can't understand the issue with cold temps in the southern coastal part of Florida. Last winter, we had our worst cold ever (100 year+ event) and my piggie took -1C (30F) and survived. It was totally defoliated, but over the past summer regrew a new crown. A guy who lives near Newcal had a larger one (about 25 ft of trunk) and his garden got down to -5C (23F). I thought his piggie was dead for sure. In his street palms such as Archontophoenix, Dypsis lutescens etc were totally browned off. His piggie also totally defoliated. It too has also grown a complete crown of new leaves. This was severe cold, there were photos posted of the damage on this forum last year if you want to see how bad it was. Piggies seem to be quite resilient palms, as long as the soil stays moist.

What is the coldest it has got in Miami or Fort Lauderdale?

In an average winter here, I will see quite a few nights down to 5C (40F). This does not phase my piggie at all. I would have thought that southern coastal Florida would be warmer than that?

Daryl

[Ken Johnson]

Again, where are all the piggies? If they are so tollerant then we should see them all around. They would be like Ptcycosperma and be an invasive palm what with the thousands of seeds one in Tahita would set. Anyone ever seen one set seed in So Fla? Yes baby them and nurse them and protect them and they still loose all their leaves in the "cool" winters of recent times.

Any commercial growers willing to grow a few thousand? I don't think so.

[Jeff Searle]

Again, where are all the piggies? If they are so tollerant then we should see them all around. They would be like Ptcycosperma and be an invasive palm what with the thousands of seeds one in Tahita would set. Anyone ever seen one set seed in So Fla? Yes baby them and nurse them and protect them and they still loose all their leaves in the "cool" winters of recent times.

Any commercial growers willing to grow a few thousand? I don't think so.

Ken,

Your pretty much right. Where's all the pigafetta's?? Between you and me, we have a good 50 years combined growing years/collecting. And were not going to waist our time growing hundreds of these, because we know. Would I grow 2-3 plants now and then, sure. But I'm not going to grow lots of them just to see them melt from time to time. Like I always tell someone, if you don't see a certain palm around...there's a good reason why. WHY...because they don't really grow here. Plain and simple.

Jeff

[Ken Johnson]

Gee Thanks Jeff. I was begining to think that I was going crazy. Maybe I was missing the boat. Shoot I was already to call the equator and order 16,000...NOT>

[TikiRick]

What is the coldest it has got in Miami or Fort Lauderdale?

In an average winter here, I will see quite a few nights down to 5C (40F). This does not phase my piggie at all. I would have thought that southern coastal Florida would be warmer than that?

Daryl

Daryl,

It can be quite cold. It has dropped well into the 20's F here. In fact, it has even snowed in Miami/Ft. Lauderdale...without accumulation of course, and yes, it was a freak storm, but it can and does get cold. One would expect to see a frost in the interior sections of South Florida, I would say once or twice every other year. A hard freeze all over? Well, many say that the last time that happened was Christmas Eve, 1989. We are long over due for yet another winter blast....but let's hope our luck holds out. Therefore, piggies are quite tender and you just don't see them. Our winter cold fronts blast in from the northwest with strong winds, and cold dry air. Piggies are not happy.

[street124]

This is the one Mike spoke of in Pinecrest, FL. This is probably my favorite palm because you can watch it grow before your eyes. This palm was the size of a pencil three winters ago, and puts out a new leaf every 2-3 weeks winter or summer. It is probably at least 15 ft now and starting to trunk. This palm was planted in that spot at about 1 ft and never protected, and I have never seen a sign of cold damage. The Experts are probably right in that it probably has a break point as far as temperature goes, but if the Global Warming hype is true we may not see that temp for quite some time. Wind I think is of greater concern, I know of one grower who tried to upright a very large specimen that toppled in one of the hurricanes but it did not make it. I planted mine small because I was told they do not like root disturbance. I would try it if no one plants them we will never see any around.

[EllisB]

All I can say, for those who wish to try to grow palms or other tropicals that are hard or require special care go for it. It's like the nerd who wants to ask the home coming queen out on a date. Sure she'll probably say no. But unless you try you'll never know. Peace.

[Alan_Tampa]

All I can say, for those who wish to try to grow palms or other tropicals that are hard or require special care go for it. It's like the nerd who wants to ask the home coming queen out on a date. Sure she'll probably say no. But unless you try you'll never know. Peace.

Hey, I resemble that remark. Also, you are right on. My garden (read weedapalooza) is full of "Miami" plants, and except for now and then do pretty good.

Alan

[Ken Johnson]

OK I give up. All the palm nerds and you too Alan should plant piggies and give some to your friends too. We can ask for pictures and have a growth rate contest and see who get stuck more and also see whos dies first.

Anyone have a picture of one in the real tropics? Bo? There sure are much prettier than any I have ever seen in So Fla.

[spockvr6]

OK I give up. All the palm nerds and you too Alan should plant piggies and give some to your friends too. We can ask for pictures and have a growth rate contest and see who get stuck more and also see whos dies first.

Im game for that!

If there are any around, Ill plant one here in Tarpon Springs and see what happens.

"If he dies....he dies".

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Under ideal conditions, how long would a piggie take to set seed?

[bubba]

Ken,You are right.Don't go off helter/skelter buying millions of Piggies.These palms,however, can be grown in South Florida if properly babied.Riffle and Craft suggest that it's failure is attributable to high winds as much as low temperatures.David Fairchild grew one that lasted dam near forever but it was sheltered with a silver spoon.A beautiful palm but definitely one for only those who can spoon them.No wild helter/skelter stuff now,you and millions of dying Piggies!

[Eric in Orlando]

If there are any around, Ill plant one here in Tarpon Springs and see what happens.

"If he dies....he dies".

[Alan_Tampa]

Ken, I am not saying you ain't right all I am saying is I'm not ready to give in on any person place or thing that tries to reign in on me. I tried piggies one time, had it doing well, till I let it dry out. You are right, however, when you say that the lack of mature piggies, or any other sensitive plant, should indicate less than ideal growing conditions. But like Jeff said (not quoting him or anything) a few tries for kicks shouldn't be out of the question.

Alan

[Walter John]

Have you seen the bigger piggies

In their starched white shirts

You will find the bigger piggies

Stirring up the dirt

Always have clean shirts to play around in.

[spockvr6]

If there are any around, Ill plant one here in Tarpon Springs and see what happens.

"If he dies....he dies".

and then as soon as it got below 30F here..."I will break you"

And, then, after it warms up a bit, and the palm comes through fine......

"He is not Pigafetta, he is a piece of iron."

Edited June 24, 2008 by spockvr6

[cfkingfish]

This is the one Mike spoke of in Pinecrest, FL. This is probably my favorite palm because you can watch it grow before your eyes. This palm was the size of a pencil three winters ago, and puts out a new leaf every 2-3 weeks winter or summer. It is probably at least 15 ft now and starting to trunk. This palm was planted in that spot at about 1 ft and never protected, and I have never seen a sign of cold damage. The Experts are probably right in that it probably has a break point as far as temperature goes, but if the Global Warming hype is true we may not see that temp for quite some time. Wind I think is of greater concern, I know of one grower who tried to upright a very large specimen that toppled in one of the hurricanes but it did not make it. I planted mine small because I was told they do not like root disturbance. I would try it if no one plants them we will never see any around.

Can you PM me the address where this palm is located? I live in Pinecrest and have not seen it, but would love to.

[Mike Evans]

If there are any around, Ill plant one here in Tarpon Springs and see what happens.

"If he dies....he dies".

and then as soon as it got below 30F here..."I will break you"

And, then, after it warms up a bit, and the palm comes through fine......

"He is not Pigafetta, he is a piece of iron."

Larry be careful what you wish for. I have over 300 seedlings started. These are extremely fast germinators & growers so far. Believe it or not, these were planted 4 1/2 weeks ago from very fresh seed. I was amazed to see them pop that fast. When you come down, you can take a few back to the farm & try them out. I am going to give it the old college try & see what happens. I am going to start a Pig Farm. I understand that they want lots of sun when young. I am game for trades if anyone is interested.

Here is a pic of da mothers. Down by the equator, of course.

And one of the babies.

[Tala]

better to plant'em in groups, maybe they will shelter each other. Pigafetta are dioecious, also another reason for group plantings. One of the first Palmcipes stories I ever read was Hodel's acct of his garden @ his in'law's in Tahiti. This was well past a decade ago, on a return visit he had to cut down the pistillate? palm to keep them from spreading over the countryside. They are very invasive (just not in Fla.)...

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

I have killed several Pigafettas and ALL of them died from lack of water. Our typical wet then dry seasons here will kill a piggie that is not well established or given copious irrigation. These things grow so fast that if you put it in a protected place, (say in the corner of a tall building where it is sheltered from north and northwest winer winds) give it plenty of water (well drained though) and are lucky enough to avoid hurricanes for a few years, you could get a very large palm. Whether it ever gets to seeding size however, is a little doubtful. It is possible but not very probable.

Something that most people here don't say is that piggies need full sun almost from day one. If you give it too much shade, it weakens and dies. It is a true rain forest light gap pioneer.

Geraldo