Jubaea seeds are dry-hollow?

[John in Andalucia]

Is this right? The embryo on the seed I opened looked healthy, but they are dry and hollow inside, suggesting that cleaned Jubaea seeds naturally float?? Only 2 out of 100 I have sank in a bucket water.

[chris.oz]

Is this right? The embryo on the seed I opened looked healthy, but they are dry and hollow inside, suggesting that cleaned Jubaea seeds naturally float?? Only 2 out of 100 I have sank in a bucket water.

John, the only ones I ever cracked were hollow, like coconuts, but without the "milk"

As far as I know they are all hollow... just like coconuts. They taste similar.

Not surprising, since they are closely related .

They are quite unlike some seeds like Bismarckia for instance. Many palm seeds are incredibly hard

and solid and not edible.

Very fresh seeds will sink but after a month or so, they become floaters . I found that most of the floaters would sink within a week

[chris.oz]

John,

There are 2 possible cases.

A. The seeds originated in the northern hemisphere.

If thats so, then they are probably 6-7 months old. Thats a bit on the old side and you would expect them all to float.

B. The seeds originated in the southern hemisphere.

If thats the case they are very very fresh, as the seeds have only just fallen from the Jubs in the last month.

I would expect these to sink.

My guess is, your seeds came from the northern hemisphere and are 6 months old and thats why they are floating.

[John in Andalucia]

Thanks Chris. I will be cracking them all, so that's some consolation, but they are not as fresh as they could be. I'll post again when any of them germinate.

[chris.oz]

Thanks Chris. I will be cracking them all, so that's some consolation, but they are not as fresh as they could be. I'll post again when any of them germinate.

John,

I know some people do recommend cracking them...... IMO Its absolutely not necessary with fresh seed. You know how the coconut has 3 holes with porous plugs in them ? Well so does the jub seed. The button easily finds its way through one of the plugs, the radicle and eophyll emerge from the button and the connection to the flesh inside the nut serves to provide the initial growth material before the roots and leaves become active.

On very rare occasions the button fails to emerge and the shoot and roots die inside the nut.

Having said that, if the plug dries out and hardens, then maybe cracking the seed gives the button an easier way out. However, if the seed is kept in a moist environment, the shoots will, by and large find their way out. I believe that cracking the shell just lets mould spores in .....

As you can see I am pretty much an advocate for the "au naturelle" method !

[Kris]

Dear John

The jubeas,jubeaxbutia or butiaxjubea seeds never floated for me till this day.and like all know i use my seeds in batches so that they even germinate in batches,so that i have some breathing time to carefully repot it in the appropriate season.some seeds of the hybrid seeds of jubeas have germinated even after a year.and some seeds i have used even after a long time,even at that time they did not float ? i recomand you to visit the materials needed for germination,and browse it page after page,those stills should be their...

My gut feeling is that it should be seeds collected from a hybrid tree,and think that 98 of those seeds are non-viable onces...

And till this day i have never cut open its shell,but had good results,except to some dying due to damp-off or due to squrieal attack,by the way squrieals love these saplings..

John was the seed collected from the wild or was it purschased from online traders...? And i always recomand members of this forum to buy from our members fresh seeds than buying from online seed traders !

all the best,

Kris.

[John in Andalucia]

Hi Kris,

I bought the Jubaeas from my usual online supplier. They have been notified and are usually very good at offering alternative seeds. This is why I wanted to find out if they were considered to be past their viability date or not. Chris in Oz has kindly offered to collect some fresh Jubaeas to sell me. Buying from seed merchants and trading with PalmTalk members is a great way to compare freshness of seeds.

[malcthomas]

Mike,

My two cents worth..

Jubaea seed are probably designed by nature to float, like a coconut that drops into the tide and is washed off to some distant island to sprout, root and grow. There is a large woody surface to the seed which when dried out must float, but as Chris said, they rehydrate when soaked for a while and sink. As to freshness, I am not certain whether this would be too crucial a factor, as in nature it takes a number of years for a fallen seed to get buried into the top soil for germination to take place. I say this because I don't bother planting Butia sp. seed anymore, rather I fork up the soil around the tree and dig up sprouted seedlings which lie a couple of inches below the surface. How long does a fallen seed take to get that far beneath the soil without the hand of man playing apart? This, in my opinion, is why I have had Butia seed take up to 8 years to germinate.

cheers...Malcolm.

[chris.oz]

Mike,

Jubaea seed are probably designed by nature to float, like a coconut that drops into the tide and is washed off to some distant island to sprout, root and grow. There is a large woody surface to the seed which when dried out must float, but as Chris said, they rehydrate when soaked for a while and sink.

cheers...Malcolm.

I agree thats probably the case. However, if Jubs are further down the evolutionary chain than Cocos, then the floating attribute has not been sucessful really.... theres not too much evidence of Jubaea having survived any oceanic voyage and setup elsewhere.

However, if Cocos are more advanced then the Jub floating seed attribute has certainly worked extremely well for them.

Question is which came first, the Jub or the coconut !

[malcthomas]

Chris...

I thought after I wrote it that someone would mention that Jubaea habitat is not coastal, but some landlocked part of Chile. A friend collected 4,000 seed this year from one local Jubaea. From habitat photos that I have seen, there does not appear to be densly growing/clumping Jubaea colonies to indicate that seed has sprouted where it has fallen, rather than being dispersed by some means. Whether that means is by surface water after heavy rain, animals, or birds, I don't know but would love to hear what Diego has to say about it. Was there some suggestion that the palm tree of Rapanui/Easter Island was closely related to Jubaea?

Another point about the freshness of Jubaea and Butia seed not being vital to germination results is the fact that you can get a double or even a tripple germination months or even years after the first.

cheers...Malcolm

Mike,

Jubaea seed are probably designed by nature to float, like a coconut that drops into the tide and is washed off to some distant island to sprout, root and grow. There is a large woody surface to the seed which when dried out must float, but as Chris said, they rehydrate when soaked for a while and sink.

cheers...Malcolm.

I agree thats probably the case. However, if Jubs are further down the evolutionary chain than Cocos, then the floating attribute has not been sucessful really.... theres not too much evidence of Jubaea having survived any oceanic voyage and setup elsewhere.

However, if Cocos are more advanced then the Jub floating seed attribute has certainly worked extremely well for them.

Question is which came first, the Jub or the coconut !

Edited June 6, 2008 by malcthomas

[malcthomas]

Chris....

I found this concerning the palm of Rapanui. worth a read. Go to both pages;

http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=PtKSlp4...;hl=en#PPA83,M1

John,

rather than cracking your seed and risk damaging the embryo, the buttons (operculum) that Chris mentioned can be picked out with a needle.

regards...Malcolm

[chris.oz]

Chris...

I thought after I wrote it that someone would mention that Jubaea habitat is not coastal, but some landlocked part of Chile. A friend collected 4,000 seed this year from one local Jubaea. From habitat photos that I have seen, there does not appear to be densly growing/clumping Jubaea colonies to indicate that seed has sprouted where it has fallen, rather than being dispersed by some means. Whether that means is by surface water after heavy rain, animals, or birds, I don't know but would love to hear what Diego has to say about it. Was there some suggestion that the palm tree of Rapanui/Easter Island was closely related to Jubaea?

Another point about the freshness of Jubaea and Butia seed not being vital to germination results is the fact that you can get a double or even a tripple germination months or even years after the first.

cheers...Malcolm

Wow 4000 is a lot. I only manage about 100 each from the local Jubs. The rats get them at one in the park and the mower scatters the others at the Queens rd Jub.

Actually Malcolm there is a well know photo of a sizeable Jub forest. The palms appear to be very close together and stretch for mabe a kilometer.

Try this one:

http://www.pacsoa.org.au/palms/Jubaea/chilensis02.jpg

As to freshness of seed. I agree 100% with Butia. I have had B. capitata seed germinating in the boots of my Butia for over 4 years since the last flower appeared.

CHRIS

[John in Andalucia]

John,

rather than cracking your seed and risk damaging the embryo, the buttons (operculum) that Chris mentioned can be picked out with a needle.

regards...Malcolm

Thanks Malcolm, but they're all cracked open now. I used a pair of mole grips set exactly, and the endocarps cracked off cleanly. Out of 100 I only split one endosperm. I shallow-plant most of my slow germinating seeds in clear styrene sandwich boxes filled with coco fiber with only a hint of moisture. Without the shells I can guarantee they will stay moist, and of course they take up less space. My supplier assured me today that these Jubs from Chile are fresh and that they will float. It just baffled me as to why two of them sank immediately in water. All were previously dry before I soaked them.

[malcthomas]

John..

Wishing the best for your seed.

Chris..

Thanks for the photo, but that is what I was meaning. There appears to be a bit of distance between each palm that I would not expect to see if 100 to 4000 seed a season from each tree fell to the ground and grew where they landed without being dispersed in some manner. The trees in the photo all look to be of similar age... could they be the scattered progeny of just one or two trees?

There does not seem to be the denseness that you see with Rhopalostylis and Archontophoenix whose small seed create carpets of seedlings around the parent tree... 'spose that the lack of younger trees in the photo could be due to animal foraging or lack of direct sunlight.

Do the rats just eat the flesh or do they manage to get at the seed? I find rats quite useful for cleaning Livistona australis seed. They carry the fallen fruit to beneath a park bench and leave little piles of perfectly cleaned seed for me to uplift every few days.

regards...Malcolm

Edited June 6, 2008 by malcthomas

[chris.oz]

John..

Wishing the best for your seed.

Chris..

Thanks for the photo, but that is what I was meaning. There appears to be a bit of distance between each palm that I would not expect to see if 100 to 4000 seed a season from each tree fell to the ground and grew where they landed without being dispersed in some manner. The trees in the photo all look to be of similar age... could they be the scattered progeny of just one or two trees?

There does not seem to be the denseness that you see with Rhopalostylis and Archontophoenix whose small seed create carpets of seedlings around the parent tree... 'spose that the lack of younger trees in the photo could be due to animal foraging or lack of direct sunlight.

Do the rats just eat the flesh or do they manage to get at the seed? I find rats quite useful for cleaning Livistona australis seed. They carry the fallen fruit to beneath a park bench and leave little piles of perfectly cleaned seed for me to uplift every few days.

regards...Malcolm

The rats gnaw through the endocarp sharp little teeth eh ! ...

[Phil]

John,

We don't germinate a lot of Jubaeas; perhaps a few hundred every other year. In my experience, seeds that are going to germinate typically sink. Germination can be sporadic and can be delayed for many months. The interesting thing is that some batches of seed germinate well and others poorly (to the point of zero results). There are fruiting trees in Santa Barbara. I've talked to a fellow up there that collects seeds. He told me he only get's good germination from one particular tree. The other trees nearby make seeds but there's always poor germination. And, this is what I've found. You either do well or poorly. The best results I've had have been from a local San Diego tree and we got at least 80 per cent germination. Those seeds sank. And, they germinated in a matter of a month or two. All we did was clean off the fruit and lay down the seeds.

Hope this helps.

Phil

[chris.oz]

John,

We don't germinate a lot of Jubaeas; perhaps a few hundred every other year. In my experience, seeds that are going to germinate typically sink. Germination can be sporadic and can be delayed for many months. The interesting thing is that some batches of seed germinate well and others poorly (to the point of zero results). There are fruiting trees in Santa Barbara. I've talked to a fellow up there that collects seeds. He told me he only get's good germination from one particular tree. The other trees nearby make seeds but there's always poor germination. And, this is what I've found. You either do well or poorly. The best results I've had have been from a local San Diego tree and we got at least 80 per cent germination. Those seeds sank. And, they germinated in a matter of a month or two. All we did was clean off the fruit and lay down the seeds.

Hope this helps.

Phil

Fascinating insight. I have collected mostly from one tree. Every year the seeds from this tree sank and germinated easily I could never see why some folk have had so much trouble. Clearly the tree I use is a good one !

[malcthomas]

Phil,

I would agree with you that if fresh seed floated then those seeds are definitely not going to germinate. I have exported seed from this season and float tested them first before posting. There were some floaters that I straight away discarded. In John's case, he was uncertain as to how old his seed were and I don't believe the float test was a safe indication of lack of viability before they had a chance to rehydrate.

I collect seed from a JubaeaXButia and have found that viability can be quite variable from one year to the next or even between infructescences. Last year it had one with large viable seed while a second had small unfertile seed. No doubt it has something to do with synchronization of flowering (self and cross). I have also wondered whether because these palms are exotic that at that crucial time of anthesis, pollinators have found some other species more attractive.

regards...Malcolm

[John in Andalucia]

If seeds sink from the start, then logic dictates that they are fresher. Once they float they are obviously on their way to inviability, because they are losing the oil and water from the endosperm that makes them heavy enough to overcome the buoyancy created by a seed cavity, and thus sink. It's the same as tipping scales, regarding the floating of seeds, but more than likely they lose their viability at a much slower rate. Once they float you never know how many are at what stage of dessication, in which case re-hydration is equally a false indicator if they eventually sink. Some will rehydrate, whilst the dessicated seeds will simply become waterlogged and sink. Only time will tell, but I have opened 3 chilensis seeds now, and all of the embryos were healthy. An interesting debate on seed viability of individual species, and I hope I can post back with some results in future.

[chris.oz]

Hi Kris,

I bought the Jubaeas from my usual online supplier. They have been notified and are usually very good at offering alternative seeds. This is why I wanted to find out if they were considered to be past their viability date or not. Chris in Oz has kindly offered to collect some fresh Jubaeas to sell me. Buying from seed merchants and trading with PalmTalk members is a great way to compare freshness of seeds.

Sorry John,

Went to my nearby Jubs 2 nite..... all the seeds are gone.

Possibly been sold off to RPS !