Mycorrhizae fungi

[LJG]

This is probably a stupid question but does Subdue and Daconil kill mycorrhizae fungi? I am pretty sure Subdue only kills Pythium and Phytophthora fungi. But Daconil is what concerns me. I heard from one person that no fungicide eradicates mycorrhizae but only decreases development for a short time.

I have started using soils that contain this and I have also added them using Plant Success granular (love the stuff!). I woudl hate to defeat the effort since I use Subdue and Daconil to control greenhouse fungus.

[MattyB]

Don't know Len. But my additude is that in the greenhouse all bets are off. Use what you gotta. I'm always reluctant to use pesticides and fungicides on my ground plants. But if it's a matter of trying to save a plant then I will. I figure that the good ju ju's will return in time.

[George Sparkman]

Hi Len,

Daconil is OK to use on endo mycorrhizae (the mycorrhizae that is good for palms).

Subdue/Ridomil (avocado label) is not good if you use it as a drench (OK for foliar application).

Daconil is bad for ecto mycorrhizae.

Subdue/Ridomil (avacado label) is not.

Bottom line - try not to have to use any fungicide.

If needed only as a spot treatment.

George Sparkman

Cycads-n-Palms.com

[LJG]

With this news I would have preferred you lied to me.

I use the double whammy on my greenhouse 3 gallon and down plants. Glad I pay all that extra cash for the nice soil.

  George Sparkman said:

Hi Len,

Daconil is OK to use on endo mycorrhizae (the mycorrhizae that is good for palms).

Subdue/Ridomil (avocado label) is not good if you use it as a drench (OK for foliar application).

Daconil is bad for ecto mycorrhizae.

Subdue/Ridomil (avacado label) is not.

Bottom line - try not to have to use any fungicide.

If needed only as a spot treatment.

George Sparkman

Cycads-n-Palms.com

[LJG]

Matt, I am like you. Once in ground I usually have no fungus issues. I also do not have fungus issues with larger greenhouse plants. But the small stuff of course is the issue. So like you, all bets are off.

[Matt in SD]

Len,

I have some palms potted in, I think, the same mix as you with the micorrhizal fungi. I avoided these pots when doing soil drenches with Daconil and Subdue because I figured there was no point getting expensive soil with live microbes and then dumping a bunch of fungicides in there. And I wanted to see whether these plants might have more or less fungal issues than other plants in my normal mixes that get fungicide treatments. I did do foliar sprays of the plants in the micorrhizal mix, just not the soil drenches. These plants didn't have any issues, whatever that means (none of the other plants had major problems either unlike last year when I had some sort of horrible fungal epidemic).

I'm glad George answered this one because I'm sure that he's done his research in this area. I've had this exact same question for a while.

Matt

  LJG said:

Matt, I am like you. Once in ground I usually have no fungus issues. I also do not have fungus issues with larger greenhouse plants. But the small stuff of course is the issue. So like you, all bets are off.

[kahili]

I don't think that Daconil is supposed to be used as a soil drench-only as a foliar application. It is not a systemic, either through the root system or the leaves, so you would not apply it as a soil drench.

Daconil is usually used for treating rhizoctonia, anthracnose, boytritis etc-none of these are in the soil-they affect the plant's stem and leaves respectively.

Usually growers will use Subdue/Clearys as a soil drench as they are both systemics and they both treat separate fungus

Daconil is usually used with a surfactant to help it stay on the leaves longer and normally you would try to keep the plant dry as long as possible after spraying.

Are you trying to treat a specific fungus or just doing preventative spraying?

[MattyB]

Kahili,

So you're saying that if I have a plant that's been in a heavy mix and the roots are rotting and I transplant it into a light mix and apply Daconil as a drench, it's not gonna help? Oh dear.

[Matt in SD]

I always do both drench and foliar with both fungicides. I can't say for sure whether Daconil does anything as drench. It would be nice to know for sure since I use much less when doing a foilar spray. But I am very convinced that foliar spraying with Subdue is better than only doing soil drench (manufacturers recommendations are for soil drench only).

Matt

[kahili]

Matty-that is what I am saying. I think it is quite common to see people apply fungicides without being sure of exactly what fungus they are attempting to treat, resulting in possibly using the wrong fungicide-which is just wasting money. Sometimes, it may not even be a fungus.

Your situation is a good example. If I had a plant that was doing what you just described, I would wash all the roots in hydrogen perioxide, let sit for 15-30 mins, rinse and then repot in a lighter soil (adding perlite to whatever you are using will help a lot with drainage). You could then drench with Subdue or Truban as a preventative, which is generally half strenth (unless you were sure that there was pythium or phytopthera present) in which case you would use full strenth. Full strength for Subdue is 2T/100 gallon water . You never want to go stronger with Subdue as the plant can react negatively to a higher dosage (toxicity). Subdue can also slow down root growth.

Sometimes roots just rot because there is no oxygen in the soil and the roots can't breath. Water displaces oxygen, hence the need for good drainage. There isn't always a fungus present. Otoh, plants that are under stress are more vulnerable to getting a fungus.

[kahili]

Matt-the reason that the label for Subdue is for soil drench only is because the spores for pythium/phytopthera are in the soil, not on the leaves-they can't exist for long in the air,unlike other fungus that spread their spores thru the wind etc. These spores are spread thru dirt-either thru splashing them from one pot to another ( which is why you would want to isolate an infected plant), using tools in infected soil and then using them in other places, tracking infected dirt on your shoes etc. Using Subdue as a foliar sprench or spray in probably not going to do anything to inhibit the fungus, it needs to take it up through the roots to act as a systemic.

[LJG]

Matt, the stuff I use also has this in it: Earthworm castings, bat guano, and Pacific Northwest sea-going fish and crab meal. Composted forest humus, sandy loam, and sphagnum peat plus humic acid. So not only does it have the beneficial microbes, it has a bunch of other stuff too. I have had positive feedback and confirmation the stuff works like a champ from experienced palm growers. A few said they swear root growth doubles in this soil. We shall see.....

[LJG]

Kahili, I agree that people use the wrong stuff for the right job. I too can clearly be thrown into that list. But I have grown wiser - from advice with those that have experience or from education. I know Subdue will not work as a foliar. I know it only works against Pythium and Phytophthora fungi in the soil. But I also know that that is one main cause of 'damping off'. So I use Subdue as a preventative. I agree there is some bad word on Subdue out there. I have heard even from friends of mine that they use it as a foliar and even to try and treat other things like Pink Rot. Which I know as fact will not work.

Daconil is another one I have learned about its correct uses. Not as a soil systemic or drench, but as a broad range 'contact' fungicide. I use this too as a preventative. Meaning any new plant I bring into the green house gets hit. But like Matt pointed, I wonder why it would not work as a drench too? So I use it as such. Hence the reason for the initial question about it killing mycorrhizae fungi. As a foliar only, I would not worry.

I think the combo of systemic Subdue and contact Daconil works great for a hobby greenhouse. But since I am a greenhorn in the palm world and greener yet in the world of greenhouse growing, I like to ask questions. I like to get options on doses and frequency as that I have not locked tht=at down yet. I can tell you now like an idiot I am over dosing my plants with Subdue. I basically put a tablespoon and mixed it with 3 gallons of water. I guess I read the label wrong!

So I guess what I am saying in a long winded way, is I welcome advice

[_Keith]

Gentlemen, you might this article interesting reading on the subject.

http://www.planthealthcare.com/UserFiles/F...Mycorrhizae.pdf

[Matt in SD]

There's a lot of great info in this thread. Thanks for starting it Len.

I've read the lables on Subdue and understand how it is supposed to work, but I think there is some benefit to foliar application. I had a major problem in my greenhouse last winter that killed about 30% of my palms. The first sign of trouble on every palm was brown tipping on the leaves, but it had a very distinctive wavy pattern and would occur in waves with several plants being affected in each wave. The brown parts would stay sort of "juicy" for quite a while, not dry up completely like what you might get with salt burn or something. Also the roots of the plants that died usually looked fine, and this happened in a wide variety of potting soils (some very good, some not so good). I used Daconil and Aliette as foliar sprays, and Daconil as a soil drench and it did not work at all. But after foliar spray with Subdue the effect was very clear by the next day. The leaf tips would dry up completely and the spread would stop. Soil drench may have eventually given the same result, but the foliar spray effect was immediate. Time is money, as they say.

I don't know what type of fungus causes this. But I am very suspicious that it is spread by mites. I think the reason I had such a devastating outbreak was that I'd had a chronic battle with mites that I was only able to suppress but not eliminate. I have seen similar symptoms on palms from many differnet people so I don't think this is rare disease, but more likely I had created a combination of conditions that helped it spread. I have since basically "nuked" my greenhouse after removing all plants, and then put plants in one by one after they had a soil swap and were mite free for several weeks. This has completely eliminated the mites and I had no problems this winter. But it has spooked me and whenever I see any signs, I'll do a series of fungicide applications. And the wavy brown tipping issue is only ever resolved by foliar subdue. Nothing else touches it.

Matt

[Mats]

  LJG said:

the stuff I use also has this in it: Earthworm castings, bat guano, and Pacific Northwest sea-going fish and crab meal. Composted forest humus, sandy loam, and sphagnum peat plus humic acid. So not only does it have the beneficial microbes, it has a bunch of other stuff too.

It sounds like a great soil mix Len. Is that Fox Farms Ocean Forest Potting Soil?

[kahili]

this is an interesting thread, and I hope that it helps people. When I first started growing for a living, I knew nothing and made every mistake, so I like to share what I have learned over 18 yrs of doing this, hopefully so less people have to make the mistakes that I or others have made in the past.

Matt-that is interesting what happened with you, I am not sure what was happening with your plants-the vast majority of time that a plant is showing a problem it is due to cultural practices/events that have happened to it. Watering/soil/fert/chemicals/PH are the usual things to look at. Rarely is it a fungal problem. Not to say that yours wasn't, just that percentage wise, it usually is something else.

Aliette is the third of the "big three" that growers reach for in treating pythium and phytopthera, and the same application methods apply with it as with Subdue and Truban. Drench the soil, not foliar spray. It doesn't make sense that the Subdue would get rid of the fungus if it were on the foliage for the reasons that I said in an above post. Also, Subdue takes about a wk before you start to see results, and usually if a plant is infected heavily enough with these spores, its a goner, rarely does the plant recover from it. Its always best to toss it (in garbage bag etc to not spread the spores more). Subdue does what it name says-it "subdues" the spores, but doesn't necessarily kill them. Subdue lasts about 30 days, and if you have an outbreak, its a good idea to switch fungicides so as to not build up a resistence to the strain of pythium etc that is active. If I get an outbreak, I will spray with Subdue, then a few wks later hit them with Truban etc.

I suspect that the foliar spray with Daconil that you used was what dried up the fungus. Daconil, while an older fungicide. still, imo, is a good fungicide for certain fungus because it does do a good job of drying up/killing the spores. Any fungicide takes at least a few days, and usually longer to start showing up as working. So if you sprayed the Daconil, and a week later sprayed the Subdue-it was the Daconil that was doing the job. Subdue just won't kill spores that are in a foliar fungus. You also mentioned that the roots always look fine-which tells me that this isn't a root fungus. If its pythium, you are going to see it in the crown or the roots-everytime. Phytopthera is always going to show it in the roots. The next time that you have this problem-take a few plants in for testing. If you are having this problem consistently-its worth finding out what is going on. They will also recommend a good treatment. Plant pathology testing is pretty cheap, esp through a agricultural state extension agent.

Also, there are some very effective miticides available on the market that are systemics and will last at least 30 days. I think that they are probably pretty expensive (but both Subdue and Aliette are, and you have invested in those). I have never had a problem with them, only spider mites and hort oil or Neem seem to do the trick for me in killing them. Anyway-the miticides may make your life easier.

Len, Daconil isn't used as a drench for the same reasons that Subdue isn't used for a foliar spray. The spores that it kills aren't in the soil. You are definitely using way too much Subdue! I am surprised that your plants have not shown any adverse effects from it. Alot of plants are susceptible to toxicity from the active ingredient in Subdue. You might also switch from Daconil to Clearys to use as a preventative with the Subdue. Clearys is sold under many names now since the patent is expired, and it is a great fungicide in that it can be used a drench or foliar spray, it can be mixed with Subdue safely, and it is a systemic through the root system and the coverage lasts about 14 days. It is also used for more fungus than Daconil. I use Clearys first and Daconil (depending on what I am spraying for) as a backup or for my second application.

[Tyrone]

When I was doing my Hort studies I was taught that fungicides only suppress outbreaks, rather than totally eradicating a species of fungus. In addition fungi, like bacteria, and virus's develop immunity to the treatment, and strengthen themselves up to fight the fungicide. The practice was to use various fungicides so they were being attacked on all fronts. Even then, if a spraying regime required using fungicide A, B, and C , the order should be randomly mixed up to say B, C, A or B, A, C, the next time it's applied, so the fungi can't get a grip on whats going on. I don't know if this is true or not, but when I'm applying fungicide to my plants I switch my chemicals all the time, so I don't get a super fungi that is immune to a particular treatment. I don't use much fungicide though for the above reasons. Good growing practice generally works best, but greenhouse culture amplifies anything that can go wrong.

Viruses can sometimes be diagnosed as fungal problems. Viruses are awful things, and they include more things than LY. There is no treatment for virus's, just strict quarantine. Like humans and animals, the plant has to fix itself up. To do that, it must be given perfect growing conditions so the plants immunity can strengthen up. (Noone really know's if plants have immunity yet. Noone has yet discovered the mechanism if it exists. I believe it does exist.)

I agree with Matt that mites may be a viral, fungal spreader, so pesticides and getting rid of the dead and the dying may fix problems. I personally think Matt's 30% fatality rate a while back may have been a combination, fungal/viral symbiosis or something, especially with weird markings on the leaves. Virus's tend to put funny patterns and markings on leaves etc.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

Best regards

Tyrone

[LJG]

Hey Kahili, this talk sounds familiar. Didn't we have a similar discussion on Dave Garden a few months back?

On the rates with Subdue, I read for "Woody" plants it is a 1 - 2 Oz rate. I assumed this rate would be the same for Palms. Then when I went to the chart for small uses (under 100 gallons), it stated 1.5 ML for 5 gallons. Like a fool I got it to 5 ML and I poured it in the 3 gallon sprayer - why? I have no idea. I did this a few days ago. Since it takes a week or so for Subdue to work, maybe that is why my plants have not shown any effects yet. Now I am nervous.

I am very familiar with Cleary's and Heritage. Personally I believe Heritage to be the best broad spectrum, but it is also the most expensive and you need a license to buy in CA. Cleary's was used for the first year on all my large specimen palm transplants.

----

On a side note, since I have installed two HAF fans in my greenhouse, I believe I will be able to cut my fungicide use down a lot. The circulation is very good now. I might only use Subdue when I transplant and Daconil if I spot trouble.

[Matt in SD]

Len,

I use 5 drops of subdue per gallon. I got this value from some online research...but don't remember exactly where. And we're definitely using the same mix...Mats seems to know of at least part of it as well. I actually find it to retain a LOT of water, makes me nervous, but it's been fine so far. Also, can you tell me what fans you got? I think I could use a bit more circulation still.

Kahili and Tyrone,

Thanks for the input. This is all very interesting for me and there are some things I want to continue at risk of hijacking Len's thread (but I think Len got the answer to his initial question already).

I actually spent quite a bit of time online researching the best application methods for Aliette since the label had worn off of my container. I found several articles that claimed that foliar spray was found to be most effective, and it was believed that the product was efficiently taken up by the leaves and then transported to the roots (more efficiently than the roots could absorb it). Maybe this doesn't apply to palms? Anways I was just surprised that you said Aliette was meant to be used as a drench since I had read otherwise from several sources I thought seemed reliable.

I totally agree with Tyrone that my problems last winter had to have been multi-factorial. That is why I emptied and bleached my greenhouse, added extra fans, repotted all my palms to a looser, faster draining mix, and quantined everything to ensure no mites got back in. I have not idea which of these things was the most important, but I've been good in my greenhouse ever since.

But I think it's worth mentioning that I had been growing palms in my greenhouse with no fungicide at all for several years before this happened, and was having great success. Many of the palms that died had been thriving under the same conditions for years. When the problems started, I used the only fungicide I had, Daconil, for several months and things continued to decline. A friend then gave me Subdue, and that made a very clear difference. I actually did the foliar spray at the recommendation of Jeff Marcus (Floribunda) who told me that even though everyone said it is not supposed to work that way, he was convinced he was getting good results. I think it's possible that I had first treated with a subdue drench, and then maybe happened to do the foliar a week later, so maybe the results I saw were just from the previous soil drench? But still strange that it affected the appearance of the brown tipped leaves.

When I posted about these issues when all this was happening last year, several very experienced growers suggested that it did not sound like a fungal issue, and that is was likely cultural. I'm not an expert at greenhouse culture by any means, but at this point I have to believe that the final cause of death was clearly fungal in nature. I am totally open to considering that the fungus was attacking the plants due to some cultural issue, like mite problems, or not enough circulation in the greenhouse. But I had palms dying in at least 5 different potting mixes (some were definitely very good mixes), and palms that had been happy for several years in the same greenhouse with the same fans were dying in droves, many never even had mites (like my 7g Caryota zebrina and my 5g Licuala radula...those really hurt!). At the time, I was also suspicious that the neem and insecticidal soap I'd been using to control the mites was causing a problem, because that was the only thing that had changed in my greenhouse when I started seeing problems...I was having trouble with spider mites so I started spraying every two weeks with a mix of neem and insecticidal soap. The other change was that I had been watering with RO water that I was getting at a coin-operated dispenser down the street. My potted palms outdoors never had any problems at all, but I didn't have mite problems outside and never used the RO water. Hard to imagine either of those causing my problems, but I don't use neem, soap, or RO water anymore just in case (I'm sure RO water in general is not a problem, but maybe something was odd about the water I was getting).

Well, I guess the point of all this is that I would prefer to be able to go back to the good old days when I didn't use any fungicides at all. But I am very paranoid. It is very clear that the fungicides do a better job at preventing an oubreak than they do of saving affected plants, so whenever I see any signs of trouble, I do a three cycle fungicide treatment (subdue, daconil and aliette not always in the same order...I had read about the resistance issues). So I would still like to get input from people with way more experience than me about what the #@$$#@ was going on. I really should have gotten something tested when I was having the problems, I didn't know this was a feasible thing to do for a hobby grower.

Enough for now, at this point I think I'm just talking to myself, it's late.

Matt

[kahili]

Matt-thank you for bringing up the Aliette foliar application method. It made me go read the label and sure enough, they advocate the foliar as a way to apply it. I had only used it once (in desperation) and I used it as a drench through my injector system. Foliar spraying is a lot cheaper and faster, so thanks again! Pansies are a large crop for me, and they are very susceptible to pythium etc so this is really helpful. In the past, I had always used Subdue and Truban.

I am glad that you got things figured out. I seriously doubt though that the fungus that you had was pythium or phytopthera as the roots would show it. However I also read that Aliette is used (as a foliar spray) to treat one particular foliar fungus (forget now which one) and it sounds like you may have had a foliar fungus at the end, of some sort.

In rereading your post, I would say also that I wouldn't have combined the Neem and the soap. Either by themselves should not have done any damage, but I have never heard of anyone combining the two together. It may be that it had some negative effects, not sure. Some things dont mix well together. I think I would have alternated between the two. also spraying an oil product during the middle of the day can cause damage to the leaves. I usually spray in the early am or after the sun has gone done. Just throwing this stuff out there, you may already know this. To figure out what the problem is with a plant, you have to look at all the puzzle pieces-go back to before you started seeing the problem and look at watering amts, whether you fertilized and with what and the amts, chemicals sprayed, weather etc. It can be interesting to do.

Len-I think that yes, we probably did have a similiar conversation on Daves-you mean the one about Truban and f4f?

I do hope that the palm you treated is ok, not sure if you can flush out some of it with a lot of water-is it in a container? In the future, if you are going to drench-wouldn't it be faster to add some Subdue to a gallon of water and just pour it into the ground rather than spray it? I tell landscapers that are treating beds with Subdue to try to do it just before a rain storm to get the water to help get it down in the roots. With the rate that they use, they can only get it a few inches, if that, when watering in a solution of Subdue or they will use too much.

[MattyB]

Thanks for all the info guys. I've been using Daconil as a soil drench (actually I just pour it all over the palm and into the soil) on seedlings that are showing signs of rot. Sometimes it seems to work. Sometimes it dosen't. Repotting in a lighter mix is usually the first thing I do and from what Kahili is saying I guess that's a good start in the right direction. I do add Perlite to my mix but I want as heavy a mix as tolerable by the plant so it dosen't dry out in one warm day. I've made super light mixes thinking "Oh, yeah this baby's gonna love it" only to find out that the entire pot was bone dry the next day. I don't think Ptychospermas and Clinistigmas like that...they told me. Kahili, thank you for the Peroxide suggestion. I'm gonna start using that more. It's relatively cheap and kills the bad stuff while adding oxygen too, right?

Oh, one other thing; I'm a strong believer that bright light and strong air circulation are a great enemy of fungal issues. As long as I keep my plants with some good spacing and air circulation I usually don't have a problem. It's not like I'm pouring on the fungicide on all my plants. But when a rare one starts to show signs of decline we all wanna be able to attack the problem quickly and efficiently.

[Ken Johnson]

One thing I may ad to this thread is that Micos. are great for palms that NEVER get fertilized as the palm recieves some benifit but it is NO WHERE near what they get from modern fertilizers. In addition modern fertilizers kill Micos. If you look at Mico. infectioms (yes they infect the palm) you will see that they have invaded the root. This in itself is bad for the palm.

Also I am pretty sure fungicides do not kill fungi. They block the growth of the spores. If you have an active infection the only hope is to keep it from spreading from spore (seed). Around me are many greenhouses where they grow plants for interior foliage. These plants must be spot free so they spray fungicides from day one so that the spores (that are everpresent) never develop.

[Matt in SD]

I'd love to see Ken and George debate the merits/lack of of micorrhizae and organic gardening. You two are both phenomenal palm growers and from what I've seen here from Ken and know about George, you two are on completely opposite sides of this issue.

Ken, what makes you think the micorrhizal infection is harmful to the palm? Everything I've ever read about the issue is that it is a symbiotic relationship and the micorrhizae process nutrients into a form that is available to palms and also generally increaes the absorptive capacity of the roots. I think this is scientifically well validated. I've seen mixed results from studies about whether chemical ferts kill micorrhizae. I think the slow release chemical ferts are not too detrimental overall. You could argue that the chemical ferts already provide the nutrients in an available form so the benefit is probably not as dramatic as if you were using organic fertilizers (or as you said no fert at all).

Matt

[LJG]

Matt, I think Ken has been snorting powder from a few of his Pseudophoenix sargentii crown shafts again.

Matt, I have two Schaffer greenhouse fans that really do the job. Per the advice of a few people, I went heavy on the fans. Also, on the mix, I agree it does hold more water then I would like. But I think for seedlings, I will start doing a 3/1 mix from now on instead of the 2/1.

----

By the way, this has been an informative thread for me. Thanks to those who posted.

  Matt in SD said:

I'd love to see Ken and George debate the merits/lack of of micorrhizae and organic gardening. You two are both phenomenal palm growers and from what I've seen here from Ken and know about George, you two are on completely opposite sides of this issue.

Ken, what makes you think the micorrhizal infection is harmful to the palm? Everything I've ever read about the issue is that it is a symbiotic relationship and the micorrhizae process nutrients into a form that is available to palms and also generally increaes the absorptive capacity of the roots. I think this is scientifically well validated. I've seen mixed results from studies about whether chemical ferts kill micorrhizae. I think the slow release chemical ferts are not too detrimental overall. You could argue that the chemical ferts already provide the nutrients in an available form so the benefit is probably not as dramatic as if you were using organic fertilizers (or as you said no fert at all).

Matt

[malcthomas]

"I really should have gotten something tested when I was having the problems, I didn't know this was a feasible thing to do for a hobby grower"

Matt.

Here is an article from our Bromeliad Society that you might find of interest.

The pineapple industry has developed a simple ‘baiting test’ for detecting phytophthera in soil, potting mixture or water. The procedure depends on the ready attack by the organism on the basal white tissue at the base of a bromeliad leaf. The original test used leaves from a pineapple top, but any young bromeliad leaf with white tissue is satisfactory.

Fill a glass jar to about 100mm with the water to be tested and place the test leaf in the water so that about 25mm of the leaf is submerged, Use a thin skewer to pin the leaf at the required depth. Allow to incubate for 8 to 10 days. Phytophthera is indicated by attack on the white tissue usually with a blue/black line and a foul smell. A less invasive organism pythium is indicated by cotton wool like growth around the leaf.

For soil or potting mix, boil and cool some water. Place 3 or 4 teaspoons of the soil or mixture in the bottom of the glass jar and gently pour in the boiled and cooled water, and set the leaf as above.

[Ken Johnson]

Len,

Too bad you live so far away for two reasons:

One is that you would be closer so I could kick your but.

The other is that you could go to lectures by leading palm researchers fro FTBG and get the skinny from the hourses mouth. I forget the guys name but root research in in full swing down here and when asked the question as to the pros and cons about Mico's. he said (with a smug look on his face) that ferts are they only way to go for the best and most robust looking palms. If you wnat less that that don't fert and put the mushrooms on your palms instead of making tea out of them! LOL

[_Keith]

  Ken Johnson said:

The other is that you could go to lectures by leading palm researchers fro FTBG and get the skinny from the hourses mouth. I forget the guys name but root research in in full swing down here and when asked the question as to the pros and cons about Mico's. he said (with a smug look on his face) that ferts are they only way to go for the best and most robust looking palms. If you wnat less that that don't fert and put the mushrooms on your palms instead of making tea out of them! LOL

Ken,

Is that research specific to FTBG's location. The reason I am asking is aren't they on top of some of the crappiest soil around, basically sand, sitting on a Limstone base just underneath. Would it be different in the clays of the south and west coast, which hold nutirents a thousand times better. I know little about this subject, but I am curious.

Keith

[Matt in SD]

Ken,

I'm also curious about what Keith asked and I've brought this up before as well. The soil in Florida from what I always here is very sandy and doesn't hold nutrients or moisture very well.

I have absolutely, positively seen that organic fertilizer regimens just do not work well at all for my potted plants. I assume there is either not enough microbes in the potting mix to break the organic fert into something useful for the plant, or it just doesn't stay put long enough to get broken down (or a combo of the two). But in my soil outside, organic fertilizers work extremely well. And one thing that is clearly not an issue in Florida is clay soil causing poor drainage. Using organic fertilizers encourages microbe and work activity which will, over time, dramatically improve soil structure and drainage in clay soil. This is an absolute fact, and something that just does not apply in Florida.

I guess what I'm saying is that I believe you've seen what is probably some well performed research and I would not even be too surprised if in Florida soils, chemical ferts are hands down the way to go (still suspicious that very long term organic, over several years, might improve the soil enough to make the race much closer). But there is no way you can generalize to all soil conditions as I already know for sure from my experience that the organics work in the ground wonderfully, and not in my potting mix at all.

Matt

[LJG]

Ken, I saw how much you smoked and how winded you got on the Cali garden tours. I think if I get past your initial assualt I got you pretty easy.

:beatingdh:

In regards to organic gardening, I have seen some very nice gardens that are 100% organic. Also, I am a firm believer that synthetic will break down soil and make your garden worst years down the road. I am going to try like hell to use 100 organic. I have been conditioning my soil for year in hopes of getting it ready for it being cut off from synthetics.

  Ken Johnson said:

Len,

Too bad you live so far away for two reasons:

One is that you would be closer so I could kick your but.

[Ken Johnson]

Len. And I saw what you looked like so don't worry about the attack untill after you drink the tea!

Yes our soils are not soils at all ( I basicly grow hydroponicly) and other soils can be far superior. In the case of the research I think most of the pix of Micos. were from container grown roots. Not sure.

Organic soils here are invaded by microbes that eat up most of the nutrients and the rest get blocked by the calcerious soil. I would bet that similar microbe activity is in any soil and that palms with special needs may benifit from some man made ferts to get them established and many will need supliments for life. For example Pseudophoenix in Cali.

BTW gardens here that never get ferts. look ok sometimes but the plants are far smaller and have less leaves than the ones "accross the streat" that have max Ferts. I always want fast and big palms so I use lots of Fert. This year I have applied Fert. 3 times already!