Attention All Landscapers

[Phil]

I had a customer email me and send me the following photo. A landscaper planted a King palm (sounds like a 24 inch box) and put in these huge pipes for "watering". Is this common practice? I'm so use to just putting them in the ground and surface watering. They always seem to do just fine. So, can you explain why this was done? I know it's for "deep watering"; but why do it? It's also sort of ugly.

Phil

[osideterry]

I take the sprinter train a few days a week, and at every station they've planted Queen Palms like that. I also seem to remember a Home Depot garden publication that showed this technique as the way to plant a palm. Might be more even useful for checking how wet the soil is at root level.

[John in Andalucia]

It looks ugly as Phil says - like a palm tracheotomy. In a public setting, just imagine what some hooligan might pour down there, knowing that it was done for good reason.

[Walter John]

To each his own with watering styles, it shows initiative. What I'm curious about is all that broken glass looking green stuff, what's dem ones brudder ?

[madagascarbob]

I've seen that done on the bottoms of slopes so they could pump water out during wet seasons .

Edited May 19, 2008 by madagascarbob

[PalmGuyWC]

What ever happened to a good hose or drip soak and let gravity do its thing?

Dick

[_Keith]

I have seen this recommended to increase airation of the soil, more than to let water in.

[deezpalms]

It's funny Phil, as we just had this discussion in my Landscape Management class this past week and my teacher concluded that it was useless here. He mentioned that they are put there so you can pump out any standing water under palms that are planted in areas with poor drainage. He said that it does serve a purpose however, he nor anyone else in our class has ever seen someone pumping out the excess water. I've seen this done on many canary's around town and it was done on a canary right down the street from my house. I think this could be useful if the owner or landscaper actually did pump out the water. Not only do these things never get used for their original purpose they are an eye sore in an otherwise beautiful garden!

[epicure3]

It's funny Phil, as we just had this discussion in my Landscape Management class this past week and my teacher concluded that it was useless here. He mentioned that they are put there so you can pump out any standing water under palms that are planted in areas with poor drainage. He said that it does serve a purpose however, he nor anyone else in our class has ever seen someone pumping out the excess water. I've seen this done on many canary's around town and it was done on a canary right down the street from my house. I think this could be useful if the owner or landscaper actually did pump out the water. Not only do these things never get used for their original purpose they are an eye sore in an otherwise beautiful garden!

I was always confused as to what these were for. I thought they were for drainage purposes but couldn't figure out how that exactly worked. See them a lot with CIDP. If you look down there with a flashlight, you can often see gravel.

[Pivi]

i saw people using this systems in olive fields here on the island where i live.

One pvc pipe is burried in the soild right next to young olive plant, it is used for watering.

[NakaB]

I just went to a tree planting workshop sponsored by the University of California master gardeners in order to qualify for ten free 15gal shade trees. They recommended this practice to help water new trees. 15 gallons of water every other day for the first couple of years to help it get established. Sounds like a lot of water to me and difficult to do unless you have a drip irrigation system or these pipes.

Here is the link to the free trees. May only be good in San Diego.

http://energycenter.org/ContentPage.asp?Co...mp;SectionID=31

[Kris]

Dear Friends

if you are regular to my posts here is a intreasting clay soil ammendment thread,here is the Link _ !

while i was digging those huge pits i have wiered idea of putting huge perferated pvc pipes as low as possible and getting all my ditches interconnected with these pvc pipes..as i was about to order for these pvc pipes.the contactor who conducted the entire operation for me came to me and asked why do you want pvc pipes & why interconnect them.i told of watering in our hot summers and easy fertiliser treatments during spring time...he began to laugh for a full 5 minutes and the guys who came to dig the pits also followed suit.then they all began to explain that if i overdo or make any artificial means to irrigate the imported plants or palms,they are all doom to die quick,due to root rot & fungus infection.since feeding excess air & water will certainly help the grouth of harm full bacteria & termites...all having a field day at our garden.so half heartedly i have to forego my plan.they all believe that human should never by pass natural means of irrigation..

And if some palms are infected then all the rest of the palms that are connected also gets infested.and the pits were dug basically for the CIDP & carypohas.while all the CIDP's Have a very long lasting track record of fungus wilting disease ?

Love,

Kris

[southlatropical]

Whatever they are for, they could be buried closer to the soil line and then capped and covered with mulch while not being used. That seems like a better method to me anyway.

[Breadfruit Bill]

Phil, I agree, its stupid and ugly.

[MattyB]

I think there's two different pipe methods that are getting confused here. The one shown above looks like the standard watering pipes like Mike described. They spec this stuff in large commercial jobs for all the trees alot. They put sprinkler heads or drippers into the pipes and it helps the tree get established with deep roots. They usually abandon any pipe watering after a year or two once the tree is established. The other pipe method is a perforated pipe that's installed in a "U" under the rootball so that excess water can be detected and or pumped out if needed. I can see the watering pipes as usefull in certain applications, especially here in our dry climate and on rocky slopes like mine. Dicots will grow roots down to get to the water and become strong and deep rooted. This is probably less usefull for Palms where surface watering seems to be more successful in my experience. For palms you should have good drainage at least around the planting hole so the water should go down deep enough anyway.

[JungleGina]

I have used this method when planting trees because it helps establish deep root systems. I don't think palms would benefit much since they have more compact rootballs.

http://www.ecocomposite.org/restoration/deeppipe.htm

[MattyB]

Hmmmm, funny how they mention San Diego and Kenya as two places where this is recommended. Dang, we are dry.

[palmman97]

Hmmmm, funny how they mention San Diego and Kenya as two places where this is recommended. Dang, we are dry.

that is fertilizer not broken glass.

[sonoranfans]

This is done here to intoduce the water through the top layer of clay, it prevents excessive runoff in poor draining soils. You can also fertilize by dropping a spike or granules down the tube. If I do this, I place an irrigation dripper right over the tube. Typically the tubes are made of pvc and the tops are set to ground level so you cant trip on them. Those tubes also look too close to the trunk for fertilizer application. I have seen some palms(phoenix, washies) grow very well when planted in pure clay that way. The tubes offer a way to deliver all kinds of nutrients below ground level. I generally dont use tubes as I dig trenches around the entire tree and backfill with high drainage ammended soil. In thast case the trench catches the runoff and keeps it in the root zone. In a few cases, (I get lazy) I used tubes on some of my non palm trees.

[Scott]

Kris - I too was wondering what effect if any the air would have. I always thought tightly compacted planting with no air pockets is best.

[The Germinator]

I did that with some trees I had on a slope out if Chino Hills. I did it because the tree was on a slope and I could water with out any run off. I also used it to deliver fertilizer down in the soil. Believe it or not the trees that had it grew much faster than the rest. i used the perforated 4 inch pipe and filled it with gravel.

[chris.oz]

Some fine sand soils are difficult to wet after the top layer dries out in summer.

This prevents water from getting to the root system.

The tubes work well and allow a lot more water to penetrate rather than just run off.

They can be used in 2 ways. Simply pour water in from a hose or insert the hose for 30 or so minutes on a trickle.

Its very commonly used for street trees in Australia.

[DoomsDave]

Hmm.

A banquet for thought!

I really don't think those pipes were needed for what looks like a King Palm. They love wet, badly drained clay, and drink the water and grow fat.

On the other hand, I can see it's usefulness in dealing with slopes or that nasty dry dirt that won't hold water well.

It might also be a way to keep something like a triangle palm happier when planted in my Death Camp Clay . . . .

[Phil]

Lots of comments. This is good. I've learned.

I could see several benefits that may make this practice useful. First would be sucking out excess water if the rootball is in a clay "swimming pool" that doesn't drain. I have this sort of situation along our parkway where the topsoil is very shallow and limestone is beneath. Second would be for watering on a slope. On slopes the problem is water just running past the tree and its roots. In the above customer's case, I think it was overkill as I was not told there were any soil or drainage problems.

Phil

[_Keith]

I too, have found this thread very informative. Thanks for starting it.

[JD in the OC]

This is sometimes done on Ficus and other trees with invasive root systems. The goal is to target your water to the bottom of the tree's rootball so that the roots will grow down and not sideways. This is worthless on palm trees as the roots never get thicker than your thumb (except on stilt-rooted palms) and almost never damage concrete.

[Steve in Brookings]

The good and the bad of drip irrigation:

THE GOOD: Drip irrigation delivers "just enough" water directly to the root zone of plants. It was originally designed for agricultural use on annual crops where the root system only goes into the first few inches of the soil.

THE BAD: For larger plants, it can be difficult to deliver "just enough" water to the part of the root zone where it will do the most good. Superficial watering encourages shallow rooting and much of the water just ends up nurturing a ring of oxalis or other weeds around the trunk of the plant. Little to none percolates to the soil horizon where we'd really like to see it go.

For a few decades now, the choices have been somewhat polarized between drip irrigation and watering "deeply and infrequently" (often meaning flood irrigation) so as to encourage deeper rooting, particularly when the plant is just getting established. For years people have been looking for something in between: something that "injects" a smaller quantity of water into a deeper soil stratum without the waste of water that comes with flood-basin irrigation. This is a reasonable compromise. The drippers go into the PVC standpipes and deliver the water where it's needed. Filling the standpipes with gravel inhibits back evaporation (and eventual clogging of the standpipes with soil from critter activity). Once the plant has attained some size, the pipes can be sawed off at ground level, if needed, and their former presence will go undetected. They can also be left in place and covered with mulch or a ground cover. I haven't done this with palms yet, but I've done it with trees and shrubs and it works.

Edited May 21, 2008 by Steve in Brookings

[monkeyranch]

When the top horizon of soil dries out during CA's rainless months it becomes difficult for irrigation to reach the deeper roots established during the rainy season. This is especially true in clay when water tend to move laterally better than down. Has anyone seen these tubes in sandier soils? I wonder if these deeper roots experience dieback during each dry season with the bulk of the roots in the top horizon? Watering these deeper roots may create a better anchored, more drought resistant tree. My property is sloped and I use berms, basins, and furrows to focus irrigation water. Common sense of course but it can be an elaborate topic. Try this link http://www.harvestingrainwater.com. Book 2 pertains to landforms. Also the classic permaculture text "Permaculture: A Designers' Manual" by Bill Mollison lends some insight.

[sonoranfans]

"The good and the bad of drip irrigation:

THE GOOD: Drip irrigation delivers "just enough" water directly to the root zone of plants. It was originally designed for agricultural use on annual crops where the root system only goes into the first few inches of the soil.

THE BAD: For larger plants, it can be difficult to deliver "just enough" water to the part of the root zone where it will do the most good. Superficial watering encourages shallow rooting and much of the water just ends up nurturing a ring of oxalis or other weeds around the trunk of the plant. Little to none percolates to the soil horizon where we'd really like to see it go."

For a few decades now, the choices have been somewhat polarized between drip irrigation and watering "deeply and infrequently" (often meaning flood irrigation) so as to encourage deeper rooting, particularly when the plant is just getting established. For years people have been looking for something in between: something that "injects" a smaller quantity of water into a deeper soil stratum without the waste of water that comes with flood-basin irrigation. This is a reasonable compromise. The drippers go into the PVC standpipes and deliver the water where it's needed. Filling the standpipes with gravel inhibits back evaporation (and eventual clogging of the standpipes with soil from critter activity). Once the plant has attained some size, the pipes can be sawed off at ground level, if needed, and their former presence will go undetected. They can also be left in place and covered with mulch or a ground cover. I haven't done this with palms yet, but I've done it with trees and shrubs and it works."

Down here things may be different. I learned the hard way that drip irrigation waters deeply more effectively in our clay soils. Flood irrigation is very wasteful, and has had water restrictions numerous times over the years, but doesnt water more deeply unless the ground is "dished" in a low spot. But the depth of watering in clay soils depends on the irrigation timer schedule. U of A horticultural dept actually has on line help for this for poor suckers that move here and know nothing about gardening in clay soils(like me, some years ago). When you water slowly for a long time, you get deep watering. If you water quickly for a short time(with the same water volume) you get superficial watering as the drip zone spreads out. I have killed some trees(not palms) this way years ago. Another bad side effect is that the superficial watering caused by rapid irrigation leads to shallow roots that cannot support the tree in our monsoon summer winds, the trees are knocked down. I space 4 drippers around the tree perimeter(as directed), each with 2 gallons per hour. Then I water this way for 5 hours to get a deep watering(total 40 gallons). The same tree with (4) 5 gallon drippers for 2 hours(40 gallons) waters superficially, that schedule will not result in deep root development in clay soils. Its interesting that home depot tends to sell timers that can only water to 2 hours length, useless except for plants here.

With sandy soils I see little reason to use drip irrigation(or tubes), as it will water(fertilize) sparsely in the surrounding root zone(4 "spots" will get wet with fast drainage).

Edited May 21, 2008 by sonoranfans

[DoomsDave]

I've seen piipe used the way shown above to helpd a plant survive a grade change, i..e, where the soil was dumped over the surface of the root zone of an established plant, which can smother it, or so some say.

Any thougths on that?

dave

[_Keith]

I've seen piipe used the way shown above to helpd a plant survive a grade change, i..e, where the soil was dumped over the surface of the root zone of an established plant, which can smother it, or so some say.

Any thougths on that?

dave

Dave,

I posted earlier in the thread that I thought I had heard of this being used for additional aeration of the soil, in cases such as you mention with a grade change. Actually, I thought it had been mentioned by Howard Garrett as a possibility in his sick tree treatment scenarios, however I did go back to his site to see if I could find mention of it but was unsuccessful.

[BS Man about Palms]

Phil, Thanks for starting this thread. Several years ago I noticed these pipes going in with CIDP's and I asked aLOT of people/landscapers what they were for. No one could tell me. These are the most straightforward answers I've heard. Great!

Bill

[Kimroot]

Hey Phil,

Sorry I'm late on this thread but feel I should still add my two cents. Remember the three large Royals I got last year from ya? I planned on putting them in the easement boxes between the street and sidewalk were I've lost several Kings. Not knowing what was killing the Kings I decided to have as much soil dug out as possible. Each easement box was dug out ~ 4 ft deep and are around 4 ft X 4 ft square. About 4 to 5 yards of soil total. I filled each 4X4X4 box with a gazillion gallons of water after they were dug. After two weeks, the water level went down by only a foot and a half. Hard clay square swimming pools. I still thought my back filling the boxes with my own soil mix would be O.K. While back filling the boxes with hand mixed NEW soil, Stewart stopped by (you know what Stewart) and asked why I wasn't putting vertical drain pipes in? He said that way I could drain the boxes with a pump during the winter rains to prevent the Royals from getting wet feet. We know they don't like THAT. I put the French Drain Pipes at the outside edges of the boxes next to the river rock border so they could be easily covered with more river rock cause I think their ugly too. I also capped them. Now after a lot of rain in the winter, I can pump the boxes out. Even if I don't pump them out, I feel the excess water will go into the pipe via hydrostatic pressure and dissipate faster than without the pipes preventing a muck pit that I know a Royal would NOT appreciate. The other post was right that many municipalities require these pipes. Poway being one of them. More than two cents.

Kim

[yachtingone]

I have 3 queen palm I planted almost 3 years ago. I filled a hole next to each palm with 5 galllons of gravel. I put 4" pvc into the gravel to deliver water to the gravel. I back filled with about 4" to 6" of soil. During the three years two of the pipes were to low and filled with soil run off. That made them useless. The first one to clog is my shortest palm. The second to clog is my second biggest. The one that didn"t clog is kicking butt on the other two. It's time to dig out the dirt in the clogged ones and to raise there hieght so they don't refill! They were all the same sized $50.00 box store palms. The biggest has 2' of trunk showing. The other two no trunk showing yet.

[Phil]

Kim and Others,

From what I've read here, the main advantage would be for removing pooled water at the base of the palm. Many of you might not have the problem, but parkway plantings (by the street) here in San Diego typically have the problem of the hole dug for your palm becoming a "swimming pool" of funky stored water. This is because the hardpan by the street doesn't perculate well. Like Kim said, such pipes could be utilized to suck out the excess and possibly bad water. I suspect on could cap the tops of implanted pipes near ground level (no glue) and remove them at will. That would make them more aesthetic yet retain their funtionality.

Now, with watering in mind, I am more skeptical as to the benefits of these pipes. I think a slow trickle of water can get to the roots at the bottom of the rootball without too much trouble. Out here, just look around. There are tens of thousands of beautiful Kings without the usage of pipes. So, why do it?

Phil

[Steve in Brookings]

I think a slow trickle of water can get to the roots at the bottom of the rootball without too much trouble. Out here, just look around. There are tens of thousands of beautiful Kings without the usage of pipes. So, why do it?

For me, the answer is still water conservation. While a slow trickle of water will get to the roots eventually, far less than 10% of the water that comes out of the emitter will make it to the required soil horizon. In ordinary soil with a moderate clay content, water will percolate through the soil roughly in the shape of an inverted isometric cone (one in which the radius of the base is equal to the height of the cone). Capillary action in the soil ensures that water will move laterally in due proportion to its depth of penetration. Because the volume of a cone increases exponentially as a function of height, the volume of water needed to drive the apex of the cone to a greater depth increases at a frightening rate:

1 ft. depth = 1 cf. water

2 ft. depth = 8.4 cf. water

3 ft. depth = 28 cf. water

4 ft. depth = 66 cf. water

Bear in mind that most of this water volume goes to making up the base of the inverted cone, which:

1. is in a soil horizon where it won't do the palm much good

2. is subject to quick back evaporation

3. is going to nourish surface grass and weeds, not the palm

So it isn't that it can't be accomplished with ordinary drip, it's just that 80-90% of the water you're using is still wasted. If the cone were not inverted, then everything would work perfectly for drip irrigation. But the water-proportion profile is upside down from what we want. Standpipes let you start the inverted cone at a deeper soil horizon so you get the base of the cone -- rather than just its apex -- in the root zone. That's where all the water volume is.

We're starting to see proprietary products that will inject drip irrigation to a deeper soil horizon. But many irrigation supply places don't carry them yet and the standpipes are cheap and easily available. A lot of it comes down to what kind of soil you have, how hot your climate is, and how strict your water conservation goals are.