Environmental Impact of Palms

[kofawild]

I wonder if anyone would be willing to help me with this.  I'm interested in learning more about how much oxygen palm trees release into the atmosphere and how much carbon they are able to sequester.  I am interested in information about all palms, but I have a particular interest in this kind of information pertaining to washingtonia.  I am also interested in how palms compare to leaved trees in these regards.  If anyone could point me toward sources of information on this topic, I would appreciate it.

[joe_OC]

I googled "C02 Consumption Rate for Palm Trees".  This is the result I got:

www.usc.edu/CSSF/Current/Projects/J1704.pdf

It just tells me I have to plant a lot more palms to the work of one pine tree, which is fine with me.  

[edbrown_3]

I dont know if I fully buy the logic of the article. Pines grow fast here but Wash. palms grow faster

Plants are autotrophs they convert CO2 to plant tissue. The plants die and form soil. Long term removal of CO2 is through conversion of the peat in soil to rock (eventually coal).

A Washingtona grows very fact. You can get a substantial tree in just a few years. Pines grow fast but the Washingtona palms grow a bit faster and are stouter. This biomass has a certain percentage carbon that is derived from CO2. It just appears to be a larger volume than pines here.

To get an idea you would have to weight it, dry it and weigh again, and then burn in a muffle furnace than weigh residue.  The weight difference between dry and ash would be rough approximation of carbon content

This would permit you to test the theory and see.

Best regards,

Ed

[joe_OC]

From what I got from the research, it's not the size of the pine tree that makes them more efficient at consuming CO2 and producing Oxygen...It's the amount of surface area of the leaves that makes the difference.

[merrill]

Hi, Joe:  I tend to agree with you.  Plant Physiologists used to think that the main growth controlling factors are the amount of direct sunlight impinging on the leaves of the plant and the CO2 available.  A secondary factor may be the amount of light reflected onto the plant.  I've known Botanists who've put reflective surfaces around and under their plants so as to reflect more light on them to overcome this limitation.

It isn't clear how recent increases in the atmospheric CO2 concentration may have affected this; is it possible it is no longer a limiting factor?  My guess is that it still is a limiting factor.

merrill

[Carlo Morici]

At the Department of Ecology, at University of La Laguna, Tenerife), we do measurements of photosyntetic efficiency on a regular basis, on Pinus canariensis in habitat. Significant differences occur between summer and winter, and between stressed and healthy plants. I never tried the machine on palms, it would be a neat work to get data from the palmetum... in different times of the year. Any volunteers?

Regarding the link posted above:

Measurements must refer to leaf surface unit, not per species or per specimen. So it makes little sense to state that a pine makes more oxygen than a plant of rice. What about a field of rice, of the same spread of the pine? ???

Most dicot and conipher tree species grow to genetically indefinite sizes. The same pine species can be small or large according to age and environmental conditions.

Most palms grow to definite sizes, with a predictable crown size and total leaf surface. The leaf surface of a 20 years old Washingtonia is roughly the same of the one of a 100 years old palm of the same species.

Just in the case of palms we could roughly refer photosyntetic efficiency to species, because most palm species have a rather constant leaf suface per specimen.

So the conclusions/discussion of the work linked above make a wrong point in my opinion. Washingtonia palms do NOT "make poor street trees" because they have "a low leaf area per plant". They rather make very good "street trees with  a low leaf area per plant". They are also good street trees because the same authors state: "Palm trees had the highest rate of photosynthesis per leaf area during the wintertime measurements."

Carlo

[ruskinPalms]

I doubt they could get pine trees to grow that well in the street medians in Cali, but maybe I'm wrong. There are undeniable benefits to using trees like oaks and pines, if they can take the harsh median environment, as street trees since they create a lot of shade in the summer. More shade on the streets equals less air conditioner use equals less carbon production from the cars, right? I can tell you that I appreciate the dicot shaded streets when I am in Miami during the summer. Only problem is when those acorns and pine cones start bombarding the traffic... I love palms, and I do love their look as median plants better than most any dicot (Delonix is a cool median dicot ), but they do not create much shade as they are generally planted (in a single file line). I guess they just need to plant more palms in the medians to create more shade! In all seriousness, when you look at a total concrete jungle like San Francisco, I don't think it really matters what is planted within such a dense city since so little is planted anyway, there is no open soil available to plant anything! I say go ahead and plant cool things like palms and whatever else looks good in such situations. In more spread out cities like miami and tampa, it may make a little more sense to plant shady dicots.  In New Tampa (northeast Tampa), I have seen very harmonious marriages of palms and oaks in medians of the boulevards that look great so perhaps a blend of both monocots and dicots may be the best action for city planners to take.

[Walter John]

If your palm trees are in bad health, the opposite may happen and the plant will emit carbon dioxide, so keep them healthy folks with nice flushing crowns.

[Walter John]

That's what I was told.

[merrill]

Most growing plants temporarily put out CO2 in the dark, but return to O2 production the next day.

merrill

[Nigel]

If you are involved in ecological matters involving palms and carbon footprints , a very good hot topic to publicise is the ridiculous biofuel situation and the mass destruction of virgin rainforest to grow oil palms to `save the planet`with biofuels.

[The Germinator]

HERE ARE SOME SITE WITH MORE INFO;

BOILING SPOT

I found this website while looking for carbon scrubbing material on palms. It has some intersting fact on Plants.

JOHNSTON COUNTY HOME HORTICULTURE

[amazondk]

(Nigel @ Feb. 22 2008,03:28)

QUOTE

If you are involved in ecological matters involving palms and carbon footprints , a very good hot topic to publicise is the ridiculous biofuel situation and the mass destruction of virgin rainforest to grow oil palms to `save the planet`with biofuels.

Nigel,

Isn't the case that the oil palm plantation boom in Asia, Malaysia and Indonesia principally has been fueled more by the need or rather consumption of palm oil for food use?  This I believe to a large degree is for bread type products, cookies, etc.  Major areas had been planted on oil palms before bio fuel came up on the radar.  Around here they do not cut down rainforest to plant palms.  They cut it down to raise cattle and grow soy beans.  And, a lot of the soy beans go to feed cattle in the USA and Europe.  There are now 60 million head of cattle in Amazonia.  

dk

[fastfeat]

(ruskinPalms @ Feb. 21 2008,19:55)

QUOTE

I doubt they could get pine trees to grow that well in the street medians in Cali, but maybe I'm wrong. There are undeniable benefits to using trees like oaks and pines, if they can take the harsh median environment, as street trees since they create a lot of shade in the summer. More shade on the streets equals less air conditioner use equals less carbon production from the cars, right? I can tell you that I appreciate the dicot shaded streets when I am in Miami during the summer. Only problem is when those acorns and pine cones start bombarding the traffic... I love palms, and I do love their look as median plants better than most any dicot (Delonix is a cool median dicot ), but they do not create much shade as they are generally planted (in a single file line). I guess they just need to plant more palms in the medians to create more shade! In all seriousness, when you look at a total concrete jungle like San Francisco, I don't think it really matters what is planted within such a dense city since so little is planted anyway, there is no open soil available to plant anything! I say go ahead and plant cool things like palms and whatever else looks good in such situations. In more spread out cities like miami and tampa, it may make a little more sense to plant shady dicots.  In New Tampa (northeast Tampa), I have seen very harmonious marriages of palms and oaks in medians of the boulevards that look great so perhaps a blend of both monocots and dicots may be the best action for city planners to take.

Bill--

Actually, the Canary Island Pine (Pinus canariensis) that Carlo referenced is very common and well-suited to median planting in much of CA and AZ. It is much more tolerant of small rootspace and soil compaction than our native Slash pine (P. elliotii).

(photo from the web)

[Nigel]

(amazondk @ Feb. 22 2008,07:12)

QUOTE

(Nigel @ Feb. 22 2008,03:28)

QUOTE

If you are involved in ecological matters involving palms and carbon footprints , a very good hot topic to publicise is the ridiculous biofuel situation and the mass destruction of virgin rainforest to grow oil palms to `save the planet`with biofuels.

Nigel,

Isn't the case that the oil palm plantation boom in Asia, Malaysia and Indonesia principally has been fueled more by the need or rather consumption of palm oil for food use?  This I believe to a large degree is for bread type products, cookies, etc.  Major areas had been planted on oil palms before bio fuel came up on the radar.  Around here they do not cut down rainforest to plant palms.  They cut it down to raise cattle and grow soy beans.  And, a lot of the soy beans go to feed cattle in the USA and Europe.  There are now 60 million head of cattle in Amazonia.  

dk

Don, originally yes, but now the rainforests are being levelled at an incredible rate to produce biofuel to save the planet !!! It just proves how irresponsible these ill thought out planet saving schemes are ,and how incompetent those people entrusted to saving the planet are.

[edbrown_III]

Joe and Merrill,

You are confusing a rate with long term storage of CO2. This is a geological phenomenon as much as a biological one.

CO2 is sequestered in biomass leaves trunk etc as cellulose.

Leaves certainly sequester it but the turn over is seasonally.

Trunk storage is a bit longer.

All of this will end up as plant litter in one way or the other.

The plant litter will eventually become peat etc on a geological path to coal. In the meanwhile the carbon is sequestered (tied up chemically ) in the various organic acids that comprise peat.

The species that really take it out are the periphyton algae. This stores the carbon as hydroxy apatite and calcium carbonate. in the organism shell. It is removed from the air and laid down as depositional mats. This is the predominate mechanism for creating lime stone that is occuring as we speak in Everglades, Bahamas etc and other tropical wetlands in the world.

Best regards,

Ed

[merrill]

Hi, Ed:

My deepest apologies, but I confess I don't understand your reference to my confusion!  

If you go to the IPS CFPAC meeting at  the Gordon Smiths in Maitland on March 8, I'd be very grateful if you brought my palm seedlings from Mark.

With Best Wishes,

merrill

[kofawild]

Thanks, everyone, for taking up this topic.  I am particularly interested in finding hard data about carbon uptake and O2 productiion for Washingtonia palms.  Does anyone know who might be measuring this, particularly in temperate climates like the US southwest?

A lot of interesting vectors have come out of this discussion, for example, oil palm plantations in SE Asia and the use of palms for urban plantings.

I'm concerned that the destruction of native forests in SE Asia for bio fuel production and the way the governments there have handled the PR might be helping to give palms a bad name in the US.  There is a bit of a campaign underway to undermine the credibility of palms as urban landscape material.

Thoughts on this?  And again, any hard carbon or O2 data or leads would be appreciated.  Thanks.

[edbrown_III]

Sorry Merrill,

I meant rate as opposed to total mass stored. You and Joe were talking about uptake rates. THe big question is the mass stored that is why I was making the arguement for palms. It is the amount of carbon taken out of the atomosphere totally ( ie converted to peat and coal).   I havent foregotten about the plants I will try to get over and see you. I hadnt planned on March meeting but will get them to you soon. I plan to be at the March sale in Montgomery though if you are down that way.

Don, Nigels right ,  when you cut the rain forests to make plantations you take that net carbon fixation out of production . It is true you have offset some carbon dioxide of coal and petroleum by using it as fuel but you still have lost mass carbon fixation of this resource (as well as the species etc.). While I dont buy all the rhetoric about the immiment crisis yet we are filling the atomsophere with carbon (stored as coal and oil) from billion years ago. Probably will make the climate warmer which we make us readjust.

Best regards,

Ed .

[palmdudetx]

Kofawild,

NASA has done extensive work with various plants to determine the amount if oxygen produced and the amount of various pollutants eliminated. I am not sure of how you would go about securing info from them. Also, not sure of how many palms were tested, but I know that the lady palm (Rhapis Excelsa) was one of them tested.

Marvin

Waller County,Tx.

[kofawild]

Thanks Marvin

[Carlo Morici]

Hi all, some more toughts,

Growing plants fix more C than mature plants. A growing field of crops catches more CO2 than a mature rainforest. A large juvenile palm fixes more C than an adult palm (and makes more leaf litter). But I think on a global scale, it does not matter much if oil palm plantations make more O2 than rainforests or not.

Long term O2/CO2 balance of large land territories is all about keeping:

1 - High % of land covered with vegetation, at all levels: in urban, rural or natural areas.

2 - High diversity, at all taxonomic levels, to resist to all future changes.

3 - The right vegetation (a desert in the desert, a forest in the forest, a screen of shade trees planted by the sunny side of a building)

This world needs species thriving in the local environment with little or no human work (irrigation, fertilizer, etc.). Each time a "pushed" field of crops is irrigated, sprayed and fertilized, we easily make more CO2 (by burning oil) than the O2 we get in turn. This applies to gardens too. We who grow palms often do "push" plants, but this is the hard truth. Rising fuel prices will make all this clear in the future. Much of the money we spend in garden maintenance is fuel, often all of it, except local man labour.

Grow the palms that grow for you with minimal effort. Lower your bills.

Fastfeat,

Pinus canariensis can grow on fresh lava flows. They sprout a few years after the flow cools down and grow stunted and yellowish for 5-20 years. Then they grow large and green, with almost no soil.

Carlo

[amazondk]

Thank you for the information Carlo.

Regarding palm oil, wikipedia has a pretty complete over view of the stituation.  It seems the British are responsible for introducing the tree to South East Asia.  Like most things it is complicated situation with both positive and negative impacts.  

dk

[edbrown_III]

Theres a molar relation ship between CO2 and O2

It is driven by solar radiation and temp

6(CO2) + H20 =   C6H24O6 + 6O2

basically CO2+water = glucose + oxygen

molar relation ship is 1:1 by molecular weight 44 kgs of CO2 ( 12 kg of carbon ) = 32 kgs of O2,

you know the weight of the tree the carbon content (by ash weight subtraction) you can estimate how much net oxygen was produced.

More trunk mass per tree more CO2  sequestered.

Best regards

Ed

[merrill]

Hi, Ed: Glucose is C6H12O6  Best Wishes, merrill

[edbrown_III]

yer right ...  molar ratios still apply for estimating long term CO2 sequestration.  Ill bring plants to Montgomery on 3/16 or visit you later on with thenm

Ed

[merrill]

Hi, Ed:

Looks like IPS Mtg will be 3/22 at our my homes @ Forest Grove and Gville, w/ free admission to Kanapaha BG.  Bring them w/ you, if convenient.  Meeting notice should appear soon.

Best Wishes, merrill

[edbrown_III]

Roger

[merrill]

Ed:

Because of various conflicts, it is moved to Apr 5.  They will send out programs.

merrill

[merrill]

Ed:

Because of various conflicts, its moved to Apr 5.  "First Coast" will send out programs

merrill