tall Acrocomia totai but young

[Eric in Orlando]

This Acrocomia totai is in a yard across the street from Leu Gardens. It is only about 10 years old. It sprouted from a rogue seed. There used to be an old one in that area of Leu Gardens pre-1992 that died from ganoderma. In that neighborhood, there are a couple dozen specimens that have sprouted on their own. Some have been removed but there are others still growing. Don't know if it is from seed from the Leu Gardens plant or there was previously anther fruiting plant around there. One has sprouted on LG property in that same area, at the base of 2 queen palms and it has outgrown them. They are very fast once they get going.

Here is the one across the street, hard to believe it is only about 10 years old from a sprouted seed;

[PalmGuyWC]

Many years ago Fairchild Gardens had Acrocomia totai growing on each side of the "over look," one planted on each side. They were magnificent palms and at first glance resembled Royals. The spines along the trunks were a dead give away. I moved away from Florida and the next time I was there the Acrocomias had dissapeared and there were Phoenix dactylifera growing in their place. I don't know what's growing there now, but it's sort of a formal setting.

A. totai is fairly cold hardy and Warren Dolby struggled with one in his Sunset zone 16 garden in Oakland. It was never happy, but we think it was because of the adobe clay. I tried a small one in Walnut Creek and it didn't make it either. I think they prefer a sandy well drained soil, and maybe warmer night temperatures. They are rather nasty with the spines growing from the trunks, but the spines weather off on older plants.

Dick

[Alicehunter2000]

Yes that is almost unbelievable growth......looks like about the same speed as a W. robusta with an underground water source.

This one is definately on my short list to try up here. Don't know of any in North Florida.

[edbrown_III]

Heres a couple in Jacksonville

[edbrown_III]

another one. I collected seed of this from Puerto Rico near airp ort.

the first photo was from seed collected in Pantanal. Growing in back high water table sandy soil. 5 foot wife for scale.

Dick it might be the heat. these were growing in orange clay but very hot and seasonally dry (simular to FLorida)

Once they get established here they grow real fast. No freezes in teens while I have been growing these ..

Best regards,

Ed

[edbrown_III]

see uplaod

[merrill]

There is a nice one in old Charleston, S. C. Russ Adams has a nice one about 25 miles north of Gainesville, FL. These are both of the variety from Dade City, which is smaller and more coldhardy than the typical A. totai.

merrill

Edited June 18, 2008 by merrill

[jpd]

There is a nice one in old Charleston, S. C. Russ Adams has a nice one about 25 miles north of Gainesville, FL. These are both of the variety from Dade City, which is smaller and more coldhardy than the typical A. totai.

merrill

Merrill,

Could you tell me where the palm is in Charleston, SC? I have been trying to grow one on Folly Beach, near Charleston. Every year it has died back completely, but has put up new spears every spring. Maybe the frost is too much for it when young. I haven't been protecting it at all.

Thanks,

jpd

[M3FSQ]

wow that is a nice palm

[merrill]

Hi, jpd

Dr. George Del Porto lives in a walled lot at something like 10 Bull St. Charleston.

Best Wishes,

merrill

Edited June 19, 2008 by merrill

[Matt N- Dallas]

I would really like to try the cold-hardy form from Dade City, FL. Merrill- you once sent me the member's contact info that grows them in Deland, but I could not reach him by e-mail. I don't have the e-mail address or name anymore- it ended in totcon? If anyone knows how to contact the member in Deland, FL that grows the cold hardy form- please let us know. Thanks!

[Wai`anae Steve]

Heres a couple in Jacksonville

Come on guys, when posting a picture of a palm w/a good looking wahine in it please include a second w/zoom on the lady

[merrill]

Hi, Matt N:

I can't find a membership list of IPS. If you would email the names of IPS members in Deland [there can't be more than a couple!], I'm sure I'd recognize the name [Doug [------]?. OTOH, if there's no Doug,please give me the names anyway.

W/ Apologies, merrill

[merrill]

Hi, Matt N:

I can't find a membership list of IPS. If you would email the names of IPS members in Deland [there can't be more than a couple!], I'm sure I'd recognize the name [Doug [------]?. OTOH, if there's no Doug,please give me the names anyway.

W/ Apologies, merrill

[Tala]

Hi Merrill,

you are thinking of Doug Keene. I haven't talked to him in more than a few yrs, hopefully he is doing fine. Eric's picture looks to be more like aculeata that totai, (not saying for sure, need to be closer). Both grow remarkably fast until they flower (ala Syagrus Queens). Then the totai palm slows down considerably. The aculeata palm may be the fastest growing palm for Cen. Fl.'s purposes but as you surely know totai is much more cold hardy. A much better choice for us landlocked inland palm growers that cannot reap the benefits of winter's warm sea breezes.

I planted a 3g size palm produced from those in Deland, was maybe knee-high in hgt back in '95. It now has around 20 ft of wood to it, this summer will be it's 5th one for flowering. The 1st batch of seed just started to germinate last yr (3 yrs in the ground waiting). I am potting them up this wkend. For those with a thorny curiosity one easy way to differentiate totai sdlgs from aculeata is by the first few leaves; totai sdlgs are always bifid, aculeata sdlgs are always simple. Adult palms can be separated by size (totai being smaller in all parts). Mine is flowering right now, a very musky fragrance easy to detect in the evenings. I tried to attach a pic of it, from 2 yrs ago but it says it is slightly too big to upload; oh well, one more way that progress has passed me by ...

[Jason in Orlando]

I thought that was you Dave.

I'll have to swing by and check your's out again...as well as the Corypha.

Jason

[Tala]

For those with a thorny curiosity one easy way to differentiate totai sdlgs from aculeata is by the first few leaves; totai sdlgs are always bifid, aculeata sdlgs are always simple.

Unfortunately senility is rearing its ugly head, its the other way around. The totai sdlgs are always simple, aculeata sdlgs always bifid. Geez ... so are crispa (form. Gastrococos). They are bifid. Has anyone tried any others?

Hi Jason, yes I have succumbed to the charms of this newfangled webstrosity.

[edbrown_III]

Any pictures of the single leafed A. totais,? Bernie Peterson cited that in an article a long time ago in Central Bulletin---

I dont know if that is uniform for totai totally or jsut the Florida specimens. I have seen bifid leaves on other plants around Florida

Brasil palms list 3 species A. aculeata , A totai, and A. intumescens. A. totai and A aculeata overlap in habitat in Southern Brazil Matogrosso du Sul ( I reckon)

We had a meeting at Dougs house about 10 years ago. The various A. totais are around the corner from his house. They survived all the 80's freezes furthest North plants in Florida to do so. They probably saw 17F in 1985.

My 3 palms have only tolerated 21F but this was a low during a 14 day period when we had lots of 25 26 27F nights.

Best regards

Ed

[Tala]

Hi Ed,

I can prob. take a pic or two when I pot mine up; some are on their 1st leaf. I lost aculeata at 23f and at 25f (almost came back), but my totai did not even blink at these.

The "true" totai I have seen always have the one leaf. I remember BP's article, at one time he thought there was a diff. in spine size too but not anymore. Man this is like old times talking about you guys ... when we hosted PalmFest in St Pete I asked Henderson about his descriptions in the PoA lit. He said he was sure there were more than just aculeata and hassleri but someone had to do the field work. Thats what Dransfield said when I queried him on Hyphaene - these botanists always looking for the easy way ...

[merrill]

Many Thanx, Tala:

Both the A. totai from Dade City [i. e., St. Leo] and the less cold-hardy, faster growing A. totai found on the Florida east coast [e. g., the famous pair formerly @ FTG overlook] are lumped as A. aculeata. They seem to be on three quite different levels of coldhardiness.

Can anyone in So. georgia tell us if there's an Acrocomia at the farm in Savannah?

There was a typical St. Leo Acrocomia near McCarty Hall on the UF campus; if my memery serves, it survived the big freeze here. OTOH, correction is welcome!

Best Wishes,

merrill

[merrill]

Hi, Ed:

Good News from Russ Adams! His healthy Dade City Acrocomia about 25 miles north of GVL was there before the big freeze, as was George Del Porto's in Charleston.

Best Wishes, merrill

[Eric in Orlando]

The "totai" types we have and in the adjacent neighborhood are hardier than the A. acueata, which show damage around 27F. the "totai" types aren't bothered by that. Both both survived at Leu Gardens the big 12/89 freeze (2 nights at 19-20F) both these old palms died a couple years later from ganoderma, they used to weedeat up to the trunks when the maintance staff was much less professional.

A question, the A. aculeata that grows around here (the more tender form, not totai types), was this the form formerly known as Acrocomia sclerocarpa ? I had heard that along time ago and just remembered that the other day.

Is there a possibilty that species will be seperated out again? How different is the Puerto Rican native, formerly A. media. I just planted one. And is Gastrococos going to be called Acrocomia crispa or its old name A. armentalis ?

[edbrown_III]

Eric,

Good to hear from you I would be much obliged for the photos.

The Acrocomia I posted with my wife as scale was collected in Pantanal from the maps could be A. totai or A. aculeata.

It has tolerated fairly cold temps . 21 F if I recall and certainly 22f in 2003. It was grown from bifid leaves. which suggest A. aculeata ----

We have many A. totais that were selected out in FL during the 80's freezes. The one near Doug Keenes house was one of several that were selected out --the ones in Jacksonville didnt make it. These are very cold hardy trees but the question is -- are they the Acrocomias from southern Brasil and Argentina---The folks from Arg. and Brasil may be calling something else A. totai.

This would be an interesting question like what part of Brasil/ Arg. did they come from. We have alot of queens in Florida also (simularly selected out) did they come from the more frost prone areas of South America . ?

My spanish is a bit labored and rudimentary but I plan to post some of th is narrative in spanish on the other board. Alot of discussion from the Brasillians and Argentines woudl be valuable insight into this --- they would have first hand knowledge if the single leaf Acrocomia is common in southern Brasil and Arg.

Much obliged for your commentary as this is very interesting stuff to me.

Best regards,

Ed

[_Keith]

Yes that is almost unbelievable growth......looks like about the same speed as a W. robusta with an underground water source.

This one is definately on my short list to try up here. Don't know of any in North Florida.

If you ever find a source for some decent sized ones in your neck of the woods, let me know.

[edbrown_III]

Merrill,

I didnt read all the commentary before I wrote the one above... Russell Adams would likely have the 2nd toughest tree or one that would bore the full brunt of the freezes. I dont know of any in Jax. Only some anecdotal mention of some at Swisher estate on the river. I think Gainesville was just a few degrees warmer than Jax in 85 --inland but further south of artic airmass. I got 10 F I suspect out in the yard but recall reading 12F on the thmometer on my house.

The Charleston tree would have seen below 10F maybe 7F (I dont know)-- that was 22 years or so ago-- I wonder if it ever had seeds --- It would be interesting to see how old it is and if it were small enough to cover or giive it some grund level protection .

Eric,

my appologies I didnt read all the emails above as closely as I should have... The A. media is real fast growing. I cant tell the difference between it and the others. It is a little bit stouter. Gray trunk.. I probably ought to shoot pictures of all 3 and post here for some further discussion about them. The 3 I have in my yard are all from seeds I wild collected so what ever they are classed as I know exactly where I got them from Merrill was even with me when we collected one.

We brought a bunch of seeds back from Brasil in 97 and I believe Dahmae distributed around his friends in central florida. I gave the late John Bishock one but this was from the mexican trip..

Mucho obliged for your commentary as it is illuminating some memories of long ago.

Best regards,

Ed

[Eric in Orlando]

Here is one of the wild sprouted "totai" here at Leu Gardens, it is near the front gate and near the ohters in the neighborhood (same parents), its the palm on the left (queen palm on right)

Here is a "totai" I dug from Ed Hall's yard when he moved to GA. The photo is a couple of years old. It sat for awhile but has since grown some, maybe this is one of Doug's palms, the 2 trunks on the right are the tall A. aculeata in the next post

[Eric in Orlando]

These are the 2 A. aculeata (A. sclerocarpa?) at LG. They have longer leaves than the "totai". They also burn around 27F

[merrill]

Hi, Ed:

We had 10F in Gville that time.

Best Wishes,

merrill

[Tala]

Eric - the wild sprouted trees at Leu are sure holding a lot of healthy leaves; mine turn brown as soon as they droop below horizontal (kind of like what Wash. filifera does). The ones in Deland do this too if I recall correctly. I'm not sure about the ones in Brooksville. As Ed mentioned I think there could be several variations of totai palms.

Ed - this site won't let me load pics past 250 in size even tho' I am an IPS member and it says it should - bummer! The pics are from a cellphone and are slightly too big for here (for some reason). I just potted up 17 sdlgs this morning, only lost one from digging. I guess I could always email you or whoever wants to see them the pic. The 2nd leaves are coming out simple as well, also a slight blueish tone to them.

Merrill - are you aware of the "wild" population of totai growing in Brooksville? This isn't that far from you, they are growing in a public area and seeds/sdlgs can be picked up off the ground. I don't know the exact address but they are near a bank & park? Can't be too difficult to locate.

There used to be a wild population growing near Cocoa Bch., they were wiped out several yrs ago via modernization...

[edbrown_III]

This is very interesting commentary.

Merrill, I stand corrected on the low temp. I a figured it was a bit warmer there. When I first met you in late 80's I visieted your house in Gainesville, Did you have a Acrocomia then? I cant remember, you had a lot of palms that were new to me at the time (other than FTG and in books). I owe you a visit if you havent left for MD, can we visit Russell Adams or wouuld that be intrusive. Where is Dade City exactly --- is it colder than Gainesville?

Tala ;

why dont you just send me a jpeg of your photos I can reduce them with phototop to upload here. (edbrown_3@bellsouth.net)

You might nag the admisnistrator I had to do the same thing a while back they may have to give manual permission.

Brooksville acrocomia might be worth a visit any body up for road trip? Deland Brooksville Dade City?

Eric, I will try to post some photos of the 3 from differnt areas of range. Your A. totai (4th photo) look like the palms we saw in Pantanal -- Mato Grosso du Sul, small diam etc. they one I posted with wife was from same area but has gotten stouter over the last few years. the A. schlerocarpa (1st photo) looks more like the A media I collected from PR .

It would be interesting to see if we can back into the linneage of some of these palms=== I dont know how many Acrocomia species werer in FL before 80 freezes but most were selected out in Central FL and North. Are these "totais" really what the south americans are calling totai's or are they some something else? This would be interesting to clarify.

Best regards,

Ed

[edbrown_III]

see Spanish language thread on Acrocomia

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=12475

its a parallel discussion going on. , A. aculeata in NE Argentina which I guess should be A. totai perhaps there is a A. totai variant in South AMerica differnt from A aculeata -- I dont know this A. aculeata would have seen temps below 20F though. I know all our opinions dont intercect but the discussion sure is interesting.

Best regards,

Ed

[merrill]

QUOTING Tala:

Merrill - are you aware of the "wild" population of totai growing in Brooksville? This isn't that far from you, they are growing in a public area and seeds/sdlgs can be picked up off the ground. I don't know the exact address but they are near a bank & park? Can't be too difficult to locate. END QUOTE

Hi, Tala: I don't drive now, but it would seem reasonable that the same coldhardy Acrocomia from nearby locations might also be in the Brooksville area. It seems to be in the Lake Alfred area too.

Best Wishes, merrill

[Tampa Scott]

Picture of my A. aculeata, 9 yrs from a 1gal. pot.

[Tampa Scott]

Picture of same palm in 2003.

[merrill]

Hi, Scott:

That is a beautiful Acrocomia

Probably a lot of people would like to see the entire trunk of the present day Acrocomia.

Best Wishes, merrill

[Tampa Scott]

Merrill, This is the best I can do on the entire trunk. The location of the palm hinders long shot pictures without a boat.

[merrill]

Hi, Scott:

Thanks for posting the trunk. Is it because of the camera angle, or are the spines aranged rather randomly rather in rings, as I've come to expect?

Thanks for the post!

[_Keith]

OK, I have to have one of these. How do I get it? PM me if public response is not desired.

[Tala]

I was just checking out the thread on the Spanish forum, posts 3 and 4 demonstrate the sdlg differences I was referring to earlier.

Ed, I went ahead and emailed you a pic of the totai sdlgs and a pic from 2 yrs ago of my palm. Feel free to post here (or use however you see fit).

D

[Kailua_Krish]

This may seem like a strange question but what are the major differences between A. totai and a queen palm other than that running into this one could kill you?