A grand Sabal in Kyoto, Japan

[Dave-Vero]

A magnificent Sabal, perhaps S. causiarium is on the north side of Kyoto's broad east-west avenue, Gojo Dori.

To find it, follow Gojo Dori west past the San-In Main Line (aka Sagano Main Line) to where the elevated Hankyu Kyoto Line crosses Gojo-Dori. On Google Maps, find this crossing, then move east about two blocks to "Saiinminamikotobukicho" (this label is just east of a big shopping center, I think the Aeon Shopping Center).

Between Gojo-Dori and the label "Saiinminamikotobukicho", there's a garden with straight rows of plants. Look for the shiny blue tile roof at the north end of the garden. At the roof's southwest (lower left) corner, there's the palm's big crown in all its splendor.

I've seen nothing else like it in Japan.

kyoto_saiinrokutandoacho___Google_Maps.pdf

By the way, I saw this palm on a previous visit but didn't quite believe my eyes. It was wonderful to see it again, but I was slow with the camera.

[DoomsDave]

Itai!

No see palm!

[kylecawazafla]

Lol I don't know if I'm allowed to make these kinds of judgments, but judging by the crown shape from the shadow, it looks like a Washingtonia robusta or filifera to me. Are they hardy to the Kyoto area?

[JakeK]

  kylecawazafla said:

Lol I don't know if I'm allowed to make these kinds of judgments, but judging by the crown shape from the shadow, it looks like a Washingtonia robusta or filifera to me. Are they hardy to the Kyoto area?

I don't what palm is in the attachment, but Washingtonia robusta grows in Tokyo near the water, and I'm sure Kyoto is just a little colder than Tokyo in the winter, so a filifera, or a Sabal or Livistona could easily survive in Kyoto.

[PalmGuyWC]

I was in Kyoto many years ago, and remember seeing two very old Tracheycarpus wagnerianus growing by the train station. I also got a thrill when I peeked through someones bamboo fence and saw dozens of vearigated Rhapis. They were very rare then outside of Japan. It's a shame we don't have any Japanese members participating on Palm Talk. I'm sure there would be a lot of interest from things there.

Dick

[Dave-Vero]

The palm has a stout trunk and (in my two brief visits) the leaves of a Sabal.

I'm hoping to post a bunch of photos of Trachycarpus in Tokyo. There's some beautiful ones in Kyoto, but the species doesn't seem to be used in the more traditional gardens. Tokyo's public gardens seem to have a lot of young trachys growing as understory. The historic Koishikawa Korakuen has a number of big ones growing in a forest setting, so they aren't easy to photgraph.

[DoomsDave]

Now I see palm!

It looks large, whatever it is. It could be a Sabal uresana, or a Washie filifera.

[Don Little]

Crown looks to full to be Washingtonia especially filfera and coloration to light to be robusta.

Dave, can you go back to the place on google maps and do a street view like you can on Google Earth and it would show the detail better? Thanks for posting the link, very interesting as I had never thought about palms in Japan except Okinawa.

Don

[Dave-Vero]

Regrettably, Street View doesn't (yet) reach the site, although it covers areas nearby. I suppose this will change; my own modest house is on Street View.

[Dave-Vero]

Major update. Imagery's now available.

[Dave-Vero]

Street View has arrived!!

[Dave-Vero]

Yes, looks like it could be a Washingtonia filifera.

[paulgila]

i agree,washie.

[gyuseppe]

yes Washingtonia .

[virtualpalm]

  On 3/26/2010 at 2:33 PM, Dave-Vero said:

Major update. Imagery's now available.

Dave, are you sure you are looking at the same palm in the street view and the aerial view? The palm in the street view is definitely Washingtonia but I agree with a couple others here that the palm in the aerial shot looks more like a large Sabal.

Jody

[Kailua_Krish]

I agree Jody as it doesn't look like the backgrounds and building match exactly either. I could be crazy though

-Krishna

[Dave-Vero]

They're definitely the same palm. The building is on a corner, and Street View imagery is available for both streets. The close-in image is from the side street. Here's an image grab from the main street, Gojo-Dori:

[DoomsDave]

Dave:

Can you read Japanese?

[iamjv]

Without a doubt it's W. Filifera... and been there a long time. Now the question is what kind of weather extremes has this palm seen??? Jv

[Dave-Vero]

I don't get it. The Klimadiagramm for Norfolk, Virginia has the same temperature line (red) as Kyoto.

The difference is probably that southern Japan doesn't get bursts of intensely cold, dry air from Alberta, Siberia, wherever.

For another temperature contrast, here's Eugene, Oregon, from the same source.

Eugene may not get warm enough, long enough in the summer. People have certainly tried growing Washingtonias there and in Medford, which should have milder winters and hotter summers.

Disclaimer: No, I can't read Japanese. I'm starting to suspect that the writing system is fairly practical. The University of Hawai'i Press has books promising to speed up remembering the kana and kanji.

[Dave-Vero]

Then again, here's Las Vegas, Nevada, also from www.klimadiagramme.de:

That temperature line looks a lot like Kyoto, and Washingtonias live in well-watered oases.

And high humidity is no deterrent to these palms.

[NorCalWill]

This palm is no longer there.

I went looking for it yesterday, and came up short.

I did however continue west on Gojo Dori, crossed the river, and in an agricultural area on the river bank to the south, saw a cluster of Butias.

Also, all around Kyoto, Trachycarpus fortunei are very common in gardens, as well as Rhaphis, which are either in ground or in pots, tucked into corners of buildings.

I also spotted a grouping of palms ( Butia, Sabal, Raphis, Trackycarpus, and even a Macrozamia) crammed into a planter box right across from the west entrance to the food market on Nishiki koji

[Dave-Vero]

Thanks for the update, even if it's disappointing. I wonder whether the Sabal might have been transplanted to, say, an upscale new shopping center.

I think Trachycarpus is considered a bit of a weed by gardeners.

[Dave-Vero]

I took a look at Google Maps and Street View. Sure enough, the site was under construction for Street View, April 2014.

[JT in Japan]

  On 9/15/2014 at 10:31 PM, Dave-Vero said:

Thanks for the update, even if it's disappointing. I wonder whether the Sabal might have been transplanted to, say, an upscale new shopping center.

I think Trachycarpus is considered a bit of a weed by gardeners.

I agree with that last sentiment, Dave. Trachy's are definitely treated like a weed here in Tokyo. But they grow everywhere, so there must be some affinity to them. Strange thing is: I can't buy them anywhere. Certainly they don't exist in any garden center or plant store in and around Tokyo. I found a couple (after months of searching) at an online nursery in Chiba (an hour or so east of Tokyo), but haven't ordered any yet. It's like builders had a thing for them 20 years ago and included one in every second house they put up, and then they fell out of favour. (But as an aside, this year, after five years in my house in the city, I found a trachy growing wild in my garden. I put a rain barrel next to the sunroom, and it's leaked empty a couple times this summer, really soaking the ground. And suddenly this trachy pops up. It's about 5 leaves now, maybe 1 foot and a half off the ground. But it's a trachy, growing wild in my garden. Love it!)

As for sabals, I just potted five last month and will try to grow them to a mature size. They've got lots of water, and good heat from the sun as well as a rock wall behind them. Just hoping they survive this winter!

And washies are all over coasal Japan. More limited inland and in cities.

JT (in Japan)

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Last time I was in Tokyo I had an argument with several of our hosts who insisted palms did not grow in Tokyo. Yet I saw them everywhere, the trachys seemed quite common, not to mention the washingtonia lined streets of Yokohama. Tokyo is at 38N and on an island, no reason why there wouldn't be more palms there. It's puzzling to me that the people who live there actually can't see them.

Given that Kyoto is at 35N, about as far south as Santa Barbara, I am surprised palms aren't more common there. I actually didn't see a single palm there when I last visited.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Here is the Google Earth link to some washingtonia at Yokohama:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Yokohama,+Kanagawa,+Japan/@35.4528322,139.6384474,42m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x60185becbbb66509:0x69683f660285400

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

A better link, and a nice shot of the Washingtonia in Yokohama. These are healthy and there's no reason this species couldn't be more widely grown all over Tokyo.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Yokohama,+Kanagawa,+Japan/@35.452637,139.6385834,3a,75y,327.62h,97.93t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sVbZKXYwlB-MM8lLD08GGMA!2e0!3e5!4m2!3m1!1s0x60185becbbb66509:0x69683f660285400

[Astrophoenix]

I have lived in Tokyo and felt the place was seriously lacking in palms.A couple of parks which conserved native vegetation,remnants of Tokyos forest had a great abundance of trachycarpus fortunei palms in the under story.Other than that what caught my eye was one butia in disneyland

.otherwise Japanese seem to favor temperate plantings.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Astrophoenix

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Yes, Northern Californians also favor temperate plantings. There is a general tendency to associate palms with conservative republican McMansions and retirement places like Arizona and Florida that are also super conservative, hence the dislike for palms. I disagree with that perspective, but I am a lone outsider.

[jeevesjank]

So it's a washie, a little disappointing. Would've been weird to see a Sabal just growing around Japan. God, I hate washingtonias.

[Astrophoenix]

"There is a general tendency to associate palms with conservative republican McMansions and retirement places like Arizona and Florida that are also super conservative, hence the dislike for palms."

Really?

very interesting

.

[paulgila]

lots of trachys & rhapis in urban japan. the tokyo zoo had a few washies, sabals, & butia, the latter looiking the best out of the last three mentioned.

[Axel Amsterdam]

Will thanks for the pictures. I think the trachies are actually well trimmed wagnerianus.