Native Butias on Florianopolis

[Nigel]

Yesterday I found some native Butias growing in the sand dunes here in Florianopolis.

This was a big surprise as nobody has ever documented wild Butias here , yet here they were.

More of a surprise is that they differ from the normal Butia odorata which is the recognised Butia growing amongst the dunes here.

Firstly, the fruits are juicy and sweet and without fibre, the butia odoratas have acid juice and lots of fibre. Secondly, the seeds are very small and round ! Other than Butia eriospatha I have never seen Butia with round seeds anywhere in brazil.

Pic attached of seeds of the new Butia compared with odorata seeds.

[PalmGuyWC]

Nigel,

I was about to ask you if you thought there were new species to be found in Brazil, and just saw your new thread. Sounds like you may have found a new Butia species. I don't know how far you live away from Alberto, but sounds like if you two guys got together and went exploring, there might be new things to be found. (It's always more fun when you have a companion to share your exploring spirit and enthueasiam).

I envy you guys who have so many native palms, and maybe some that haven't been found yet. There must be many little nitches and cranies, in a romote valley or hill top that haven't been explored. Who knows what might await your discovery? There must be a palm waiting to be named ?? Nigelensis!

Dick

[VA Jeff]

Nigel,

Is there a considerable population of these, a handful, or less? The acidity and pulp of most odoratas may be environmentally related, since the same thing can happen to domesticated fruits growing in cool climates. So if you saw the spathes, you must have been able to see if they were fuzzy or not. Is there anything else notable about this subspecies? Is there a link between climate and the seed morphology? This could relate to the mountain queens as well.

[freakypalmguy]

Interesting Nigel. It's hard to tell from the picture, but it appears to be a small plant, , is the plant in your above picture where the fruits came from? It also appears to have a very strict form. Do you have any other more detailed pictures of the plant?

Matt

[Alberto]

Nigel,

I envy you guys who have so many native palms, and maybe some that haven't been found yet. There must be many little nitches and cranies, in a romote valley or hill top that haven't been explored. Who knows what might await your discovery? There must be a palm waiting to be named ?? Nigelensis!

Dick

Or B.kembreyensis

Thats,an interesting found Nigel! How are the flowers ,spatha? The collor looks greener than tipical odorata... Florianópolis is an island so this fact can explain that this evolved with other characteristics than the mainland Butia odoratas...or it is a new species.....??????

Edited February 23, 2009 by Alberto

[Nigel]

I didnt pay much attention to the plants, it was only when I got back that I realised the fruit and seed was different. I just assumed it was normal odoratas.

I plan to go back thursday to look properly , unfortunately I dont remember any flowers or spathes on the 2 plants I inspected,and the others were in deep mata and very difficult to get to. Hard to establish numbers because most of that land is cleared for houses and agriculture or overrun by huge dunes. but where the original mata existed there were Butias poking their heads out in between.

My photo is not really very good, the plant is much bluer than it looks in the photo.

The round seed is a real mystery , only those uruguay capitatas have a round seed other than eriosptha and those seeds and plants are very large.

[PalmGuyWC]

Sorry Alberto,

I didn't mean to ignore you, but I didn't know your last name. Kembreyensis sounds fine too, and it's easy to pronounce. Maybe you have already found some Butias that deserve your namesake. I hope you guys keep searching.

Dick

[Alberto]

Sorry Alberto,

I didn't mean to ignore you, but I didn't know your last name. Kembreyensis sounds fine too, and it's easy to pronounce. Maybe you have already found some Butias that deserve your namesake. I hope you guys keep searching.

Dick

Hi dick,

Nigel Kembrey found this butias,so it can be either Butia nigelensis or B.kembreyensis.

We will make poll if it is so far....

I have already my xButia barkemai (B.eriospatha x B.microspadix)...

[paulgila]

nice to hear some good news for a change!

[Jeff zone 8 N.C.]

Great find Nigel! I love the look of that Butia. It looks like a couple of the seed show a slight depression in their top like an apple has where the stem would be attached. Is that just the angle of those seed?

[FRITO]

according to the PASCOA site - B odorata

"Fruit can be red or yellow in colour, the fruit is poor to eat, containing much pulp. The seed is much smaller than Butia capitata seed, and can be round to oval in shape. Unlike Butia capitata , even as a very young plant, it seems to bloom profusely. "

the pulp being tasty is probably the key thing? or is this a variable thing since odorata grow in poor sandy soil, probably not offering tasty fruit.

Is anyone growing B. odorata domestically in fertile soil conducive for tasty fruit? the first photo of B. odorata on the PASCOA site looks like it is being c

cultivated and shows more upright growth and the soil is not "pure white sand"

Edited February 23, 2009 by FRITO

[Nigel]

Back to the place today, found many Butias. Butias from seedlings to 2m trunks ,indicating a healthy population.

This mature Butia was right on the edge of the dunes close to a house and was probably 100 years old. It has leaves typical of this population being very upright and rather strictior like, all the plants here have very stiff leaves , less recurved than most Butias.

[Nigel]

The spathes of these Butias are green with light patches of tomentum. Butia odorata as far as I have seen is is plain green and without patches of tomentum.

[Nigel]

The fruits are a rather unusual pumpkin shape. Has anybody else got a Butia with pumpkin shape fruits?

[Nigel]

Flower yellow with very small male and female flowers, counting it out of the yatay and paraguayensis complex.

Strangely, I could not find any small plants flowering, only large plants. All along the coast here the Butia odorata flowers profusely from a very young age.

[Nigel]

Some habitat pics.

[Nigel]

To summarise, this Butia differs from the local odrata population in that

1. Fruit is pumpkin shape rather than oval in shape.

2. Fruit is sweeter and lacking the acid and fibre of local odoratas.

3. Seed is completely round and not elongated.

4. Leaves are more upright.

5. Female flowers seem smaller.

6. Plants do not flower profusely from a very young age.

7. Spathe has blotches of light brown tomentum.

Finally, as I was leaving, to my excitement I came across another Butia, apparently mimicking grass and multistemmed. Until now this type of very rare Butia was only found in the area where Rio Grande do Sul, Paraguay and Argentina meet. I need to return to establish that it is indeed one plant and try to find others, I was out of time and driven away by a hoarde of angry ants on this occasion.

[kristof p]

seems like you have the time of your live up there in Brazil.

interesting Butia pictures. the petioles look more spiny than my B. odoratas but that are just tree specimens. do you think they would have some coldhardines?... i could test it out for you

[Jeff zone 8 N.C.]

Some habitat pics.

Outstanding information and pictures on this Butia, Nigel! I am very excited that you are finding and sharing your experiences with the palms you find there. You are living my dream. I love the South American cold hardy palms. The Butia's in my area of coastal North Carolina are very varied and mostly originate from growers in Northern Florida. They are all sold as "Pindo Palm", but are extremely variable. It is obvious there is a lot of different blood in our Butia's. We have uprights, weeping, and very recurved forms, greens, silvers, huge trunks, small trunks, coarse and fine leaves forms, a few dwarf forms, compact and open forms, in just about every combination. With all our different forms I can say I have not seen one like this one. The new smaller one you found looks a lot different and very interestubg. I look forward to you postinfg further about it too.

[ricky]

great looking palm Nigel and the clumping one sounds interesting to i cant help but notice the similarities between the palm you've just found and the butia compacta multiflora plants sell comparing the pics the palms almost look identical just wondering has any one seen the seeds from multiflora to compare with the palms Nigel has found its all all very interesting looks like there still quite a few palms to be found south America just hoping you can find them before the developers plough them all under

Ricky

[PalmGuyWC]

Nigel,

You listed some of the features this Butia has, but what about the trunk? Is it smaller in diamater than a typical B. capitata and is the plant generally smaller than B. capitata? Rickey raises an interesting point. From the pictures the palm does resemble a dwarf Butia that is being sold by Multiflora. I've seen some of the plants that come from Multiflora and they are about half the size of a "regular" Butia, and they are really nice looking palms.

Nigel, you mention that only very mature palms produce seeds. I'm told that the plants Multiflora has do not produce viable seeds, but maybe this is because they haven't matured yet. The palm I'm refering too is called Butia var compacta. Someone posted a picture in a thread recently of Multiflora's Butia var compacta, but I can't find it now. It would also be interesting to see if Multiflora's Butia has patches of tomentum on the spathes.

Dick

[Nigel]

Nigel,

You listed some of the features this Butia has, but what about the trunk? Is it smaller in diamater than a typical B. capitata and is the plant generally smaller than B. capitata? Rickey raises an interesting point. From the pictures the palm does resemble a dwarf Butia that is being sold by Multiflora. I've seen some of the plants that come from Multiflora and they are about half the size of a "regular" Butia, and they are really nice looking palms.

Nigel, you mention that only very mature palms produce seeds. I'm told that the plants Multiflora has do not produce viable seeds, but maybe this is because they haven't matured yet. The palm I'm refering too is called Butia var compacta. Someone posted a picture in a thread recently of Multiflora's Butia var compacta, but I can't find it now. It would also be interesting to see if Multiflora's Butia has patches of tomentum on the spathes.

Dick

Dick the span of this big Butia in the picture is not more than 2m. The trunk is also smaller than a normal capitata. It seems to be larger than the typical odorata but smaller than capitata and eriospatha, however that may be due to the fact that its growing in sand. The Butia odorata here flowers and produces seeds from a young age, when I went to this population I fully expected the smaller plants to have flowers and seeds, but could only find flowers and seeds on larger plants. In my opinion this Butia is more closely related to eriospatha than to odorata.

[freakypalmguy]

Excellent Nigel. This is very interesting as Butias are one of my favorites palms. The leaf form is very similar to the compacta, did any of the plants you observed have the striking blue coloration that is shown in the pictures of compacta?

Dick, do the Butia compacta's you have seen in person from multiflora all have the blue coloration?

Thank you for posting this information Nigel.

Matt

[PalmGuyWC]

Matt,

It was last summer that I saw the Butia compactas growing in Edith Bergstrom's beautiful palm garden. It was the first time I had seen them, and as I recall they had a nice blueish green color. What struck me was their compact size and how symmetrical the fronds were. If I lived in S. Calif., I would add one to my collection right away. She had one planted on a berm, and it was interesting to look at the palm from underneath instead of eye level.

Matt, you said you might visit Multiflora. If you do, try to get as much information as you can on the palm.

Dick

[freakypalmguy]

Matt,

It was last summer that I saw the Butia compactas growing in Edith Bergstrom's beautiful palm garden. It was the first time I had seen them, and as I recall they had a nice blueish green color. What struck me was their compact size and how symmetrical the fronds were. If I lived in S. Calif., I would add one to my collection right away. She had one planted on a berm, and it was interesting to look at the palm from underneath instead of eye level.

Matt, you said you might visit Multiflora. If you do, try to get as much information as you can on the palm.

Dick

I will Dick, hopefully I can make it over there soon.

Matt

[freakypalmguy]

I found these pictures of Edith Bergstroms Butia compactas for comparison. What do you think Nigel, similar?

Here is a link to the thread with the pictures of her garden. It is a serious eye popper. Stunning

Edith Bergstrom Garden Thread

[PalmGuyWC]

I just viewed this thread of Edith Bergstrom's garden to give me inspiration for the spring planting. Make sure you view the attached thread supplied by Matt of the Bergstrom garden as, it's one of the most spectacular palm gardens in N. Calif. Pictures can not do it justice as the garden is a work of art. There are also some nice pictures of the Butia var. compacta. This is a relatively new garden, so give it 5 or 10 years and it will be on the cover page of every garden magazine in America.

Dick

[Nigel]

Dick, I went back to take some more pics of adult palms with me for scale, also my girlfriend on the dunes to show the alien landscape these palms live in. They are remarkably similar to your compacta,s and the mature ones much larger than odoratas.

[freakypalmguy]

I guess I'll take the hint Nigel. No more posting in your threads. Kind of interesting when you start a topic such as this one. in the past.

[Nigel]

I guess I'll take the hint Nigel. No more posting in your threads. Kind of interesting when you start a topic such as this one. in the past.

Not sure why you are annoyed at me Matt, can only guess its because I erroneously replied to Dick rather than yourself re the compactas. I did in fact make a special trip their today to respond to your post and get some good comparative photos.

I know its irritating when somebody doesnt reply so sorry about that, happened to me the other day in the Acrocomia thread after i thought i wrote some interesting stuff so know how you feel.

[freakypalmguy]

I guess I'll take the hint Nigel. No more posting in your threads. Kind of interesting when you start a topic such as this one. in the past.

Not sure why you are annoyed at me Matt, can only guess its because I erroneously replied to Dick rather than yourself re the compactas. I did in fact make a special trip their today to respond to your post and get some good comparative photos.

I know its irritating when somebody doesnt reply so sorry about that, happened to me the other day in the Acrocomia thread after i thought i wrote some interesting stuff so know how you feel.

Sorry Nigel, I jumped the gun. I just felt like you were ignoring me on purpose. I guess I'm being a little over sensitive. The internet can be a funny place that way.

I always enjoy reading your threads, so again, please accept my apologies.

Matt

[Nigel]

I guess I'll take the hint Nigel. No more posting in your threads. Kind of interesting when you start a topic such as this one. in the past.

Not sure why you are annoyed at me Matt, can only guess its because I erroneously replied to Dick rather than yourself re the compactas. I did in fact make a special trip their today to respond to your post and get some good comparative photos.

I know its irritating when somebody doesnt reply so sorry about that, happened to me the other day in the Acrocomia thread after i thought i wrote some interesting stuff so know how you feel.

Sorry Nigel, I jumped the gun. I just felt like you were ignoring me on purpose. I guess I'm being a little over sensitive. The internet can be a funny place that way.

I always enjoy reading your threads, so again, please accept my apologies.

Matt

No worries Matt, my fault not yours, should take more care as to whom I am responding..

[ricky]

hi Nigel just wondering how these palms compare with the butia compacta you imported the other year do you think these are the same palms or do you think this is a totally different palm

ricky

[Nigel]

hi Nigel just wondering how these palms compare with the butia compacta you imported the other year do you think these are the same palms or do you think this is a totally different palm

ricky

Ricky ,those were some very beautiful compact Butias that were clearly different to all the others here, but we never found the source of the seeds they were grown from. Certainly its possible.

[Alberto]

hi Nigel just wondering how these palms compare with the butia compacta you imported the other year do you think these are the same palms or do you think this is a totally different palm

ricky

Ricky ,those were some very beautiful compact Butias that were clearly different to all the others here, but we never found the source of the seeds they were grown from. Certainly its possible.

Nigel,this is a pic of the spathas of the Butyagrus (B.eriospatha x queen) growing in Tibagi... interesting that it superficially looks like your Butia spathas...

[Nigel]

[Nigel,this is a pic of the spathas of the Butyagrus (B.eriospatha x queen) growing in Tibagi... interesting that it superficially looks like your Butia spathas...

Alberto, for me, these plants have more in common with eriospatha than odorata.

Incidentally, do Syagrus roms ever have spathes with tomentum ? I ask because on more than 1 occasion I have seen brown spathes here with tomentum on Syagrus roms. Maybe the answer to these huge queens in the mountains lies in genetics, maybe many generations past an occasional natural Butyagrus backcrossed into the syagrus population ?

[PalmGuyWC]

Nigel,

I don't think I have ever seen a Syagrus with tan tomentum, but I have one that has silver tomentum on the spathes and also on the underside of the petioles. This particular Queen has only grown to half the height of my other Syagrus, and it has a very nice form. Patrick Schafer uses this palm as a pollen source and he has also used it as a mother plant crossed with Butia, Jubaea, XBujubaea and Parajubaea. The seedlings of these crosses are to small to determine yet what characteristics they will have.

Actually, on second thought, I do have a Syagrus X Bujubaea that has 3 divided fronds. It is quite a nice looking palm and will go in the ground this spring. I also have a Bujubaea X Syagrus in the ground. It will be interesting to see how these two crosses differ.

Dick

[Nigel]

Here is Dr Noblicks opinion.

Hi Nigel

Yes I did examine at your pictures. It is possible that you do have a new species. However, I am very confused by the variability found in this species. Near Torres, RS I found specimens with red, orange, yellow and purple fruit and plants with stiff leaflets and others with pendant, flaccid leaflets, ones with sweet fruit and others with very bitter fruit all in the same population. The Uruguay populations are very different, larger trees and rounded seed with fleshy ovate to pumpkin shaped fruit as you described. This could be a distinctly new species, or it could be just clinal variation. We need to know what happens to it between southern Brazil and Florianopolis. Is it a gradual change or does the change occur rather suddenly? it is all quite confusing to me.

Larry

The answer to Dr Noblicks question is that to the north and south of here Butia odorata is completely different. It really seems this population is related to the uruguay plants some 1000km+ away ,and not the odoratas, or is indeed a separate species. Here we have round seeds, fleshy sweet pumpkin size fruits, but much much smaller than those in Uruguay, and very different to odoratas.

[Nigel]

Bumping this one up for Frito

[Alberto]

bump

In this thread Nigel calls the B. catarinensis as ''odorata''. Now, after revision, B. odoratas are the big Butias from the pampas vegetation from the south of the st. Rio Grande do Sul and Uruguay and B. catarinensis are from the dunes near the sea of Paraná and specially Santa Catarina

Edited January 22, 2018 by Alberto