The Fungus Amungus

[Palmə häl′ik]

I've decided to do a little case study on beneficial bacteria, and to see if there are any benefits to using these innoculants... The seed is Archontophoenix maxima. One tray gets .5 tsp per gallon of water, while the other gets plain 'ol tap water... Haven't introduced any fertilizers yet, but once the roots get goin', I will...

Germination rate was 100% BTW. Thanks KingFish. I got like 23 fer 23 bro!

Pretty same-o, same-o right now...

I'll be uping the myco to 1tsp per gallon here shortly...

Any comments or perils of wisdom on this issue...

~Ray.

[Gonzer]

Doubtful (highly) that you'll notice any difference especially among seedlings. Mycorrhizal bacteria needs roots to colonize although it's said that it is beneficial in "starting up" sterile soils.

[Palmə häl′ik]

Makes sense.

There were roots when I transferred them from the community container...

It's been about a week now, so I'm guessing the rootzone is increasing on both trays...

~Ray.

[MARKGREYWA]

Certainly worth a shot, if you get compatable mycrohysii [fungal filaments] on the roots you are increasing the root zone and nutrient absorb zone heaps. I have done it on my seedlings and potted palms over the years but no control so can't say either way but if it is a culture more likely to get good stuff and then later less room for the bad stuff.

[Ken Johnson]

I asked a scientist (who was doing studies on this subject) which would be better, fungus or fertilizer, and he said "well of coarse fertilizer". Do you all know what these beasts do to a root? They infect it. Infections are not good for anything but if you dont have any fertilizer or natural elemnts in the soil these buggers can add nitrogen, that is for sure. If you do fertilize then the fertilizer will kill the fungi acording to this scientist. BTW he was not just shooting in the dark. He had electron micrographs and lots of data.

[Palmə häl′ik]

I dunno Ken. I hate to say it. But I beg to differ.

I've heard that phosphate or organic based ferts can be used...

We shall see. I've fixin' to put it down. Right here my friend.

This is the data on MyCo I'm using:

Guaranteed Analysis

Bacteria:

Bacillus licheniformis………………….……….…372 million cfu/lb

Bacillus azotoformans……………..…….………372 million cfu/lb

Bacillus megaterium.…………..…..……..….….372 million cfu/lb

Bacillus coagulans,…….…………………………372 million cfu/lb

Bacillus pumilis…………..…….………………….372 million cfu/lb

Bacillus thuringiensis…………..………………….372 million cfu/lb

Bacillus stearothermiphillis…….………………….372 million cfu/lb

Paenibacillus polymyxa….…………..…………….372 million cfu/lb

Paenibacillus durum…………………..…………….372 million cfu/lb

Paenibacillus florescence..………….………..….372 million cfu/lb

Paenibacillus gordonae…..………….…………….372 million cfu/lb

Azotobacter polymxa………………….………..….372 million cfu/lb

Azotobacter chroococcum……………………..….372 million cfu/lb

Sacchromyces cervisiae………………………..….372 million cfu/lb

Pseudomonas aureofaceans…………………..….372 million cfu/lb

Mycorrhiza:

Endomycorrhizal/cc

Glomus intraradices……………….……..…1,135 propagules per lb

Glomas mosseae……………………………1,135 propagules per lb

Glomas aggregatum………………………..1,135 propagules per lb

Glomus entunicatum……………..…………1,135 propagules per lb

Glomus clarum………………….………..….1,135 propagules per lb

Glomus deserticola….………………………1,135 propagules per lb

Gigaspora margarita………..………………1,135 propagules per lb

Gigaspora brasilianum………..….…………1,135 propagules per lb

Gigaspora monosporum………….…………1,135 propagules per lb

Trichoderma:

Trichoderma harzianum……….….150 million propagules per lb

Trichoderma konigii………..……….150 million propagules per lb

[Palmə häl′ik]

Here's a little study done in 1977 indicating its usfullness...

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2433509

[MARKGREYWA]

YEP DEPENDS ON THE FERTILIZER, SYNTHETIC FERTS LIKE SUPER PHOSPHATE, DAP, MAP, UREA ECT ARE WATER SOLUBLE SALTS AND GENERALY HIGHLY ACIDIC , MINERAL FERTS USING GROUND ROCK DUSTS OR BLOOD AND BONE ARE USSUALLY BASIC I.E. ALKALINE AND RELY ON MICROBIAL ACTION TO RELEASE THE NUTRIENTS TO PLANTS THEY ARE ALSO SLOWER RELEASE, YOU NEED MICROBOBES TO ACT AS THE INTERMEDIATORY TO BREAK DOWN AND MAKE BIOAVAILABLE THE ELEMENTS HELD IN AN MINERAL FERT. SYNTHETIC FERTS ARE WATER SOLUABLE ALLOWING DIRECT PLANT UPTAKE REGARDLESS OF ANY BIOLOGICAL INTERMEDIATARY BUT PLANTS COP FROST DAMAGE AND HIGHTENED INSECT ATTACK WITH THEIR USE THEY ALSO DESTROY NATURAL MICROBIAL ACTION IN THE SOIL, IE THE MICROBES AND FUNGI HATE ACIDIFYING CONDITIONS. THAT IS WHY PEOPLE CREATE COMPOST AND MULCH GARDENS TO PROMOTE MICROBIAL LIFE. IE FEED THE SOIL, MAJOR PROBLEM BOMB IT BUT TRY AND MAINTAIN THE MICROBIAL DIVERSITY IN THE GARDEN IT CAN BONCE BACK, ''DIVERSITY IS STRENGTH''.

[Ken Johnson]

All that stuff is real cool but the biggest problem with palms in Florida is micro nutrient deficiency. How will you get the Micros to the palm without synthetic fertilizer? Would you quit using synth all together? You would have to to not to kill the Microbes.

Another study done in South Florida showed that microbes in mulch and organic matter often "eat" up micro nutrients making them unavailable to the palms.

I'm thinking that if you want to grow a wide variety of palms and keep them as healthy as possible you will keep out all the microbes, good and bad, and make sure you have synthetic fertilizers and water like mad until the rainy season starts. (When will that be?)

BTW Rays palms already look good and his little experiment is welcomed and I look forward to seeing what kind of scientist he is!

[Palmə häl′ik]

Goin' BiFid with MyCo:

Edited June 10, 2011 by Palmə häl′ik

[Palmə häl′ik]

Not yet, without the MyCo:

[Palmə häl′ik]

I do intend on using synthetics Ken. Probably Osmocote 13.13.13

It's been argued in the past about synthetics not working with MyCo, but they do...

The MyCo is supposed to aid in nutrient uptake...

I inturn need to feed the MyCo something...

All new to me, we shall see...

~Ray.

[Ken Johnson]

Ray did you feed the controll group with syth yet? maybe some liquid stuff? That should get them going twice as fast as the ones with MyCo.

[Palmə häl′ik]

Greetings Ken.

It's a pleasure to have such a reputable palm-guru interested in this aswell...

All comments are welcomed...

My intentions were to give both trays the same synthetic fertilizer, granular 13.13.13 from Osmacote..

One tray gets the McCo while the other will not...

I should've went with four different sets... But wouldv'e been too labor intensive...

1... MyCo with organic nutrient

2... MyCo with synthetic nutrient

3... no MyCo with organic nutrient

4... no MyCo with synthetic nutrient

I'm pretty sure the two trays that I'm doing, one with, one without ought to justify using or not using the beneficial bacteria... Further studies can be done if neccessary...

~Ray.

[Ken Johnson]

dont forget one with nothing

[Alan_Tampa]

There should be several examples of each condition in order to preclude variation in seedling vigor. As well as a control group, like Ken said.

Alan

[Ken Johnson]

Are we driving you crazy yet Ray?

BTW can I have one of the best ones?

[Kumar]

I thought this question was very interesting - and I spoke to a friend who is a non practising doctor (in pathology). His view was that non-symbiotic bacteria and fungi very frequently have beneficial effect in plants and animals alike - such as in roots and ailementary canal, but the problem is that nearly all remain highly oppurtunistic - so if the animal or plant has a slight weakness in body structure or immunity, these bacteria / fungi will spare no effort in exploiting it, - somnething that could easily lead to loss of seedlings that could otherwise have lived.

[richnorm]

Reading this with interest. Probably not the best species as these things are so easy to grow that differences might be less pronounced. Would love to get hold of some of that stuff for my New Cal seedlings, you hear about it being available but haven't been able to buy any yet. Clearly the soil in parts of Florida has specific issues which don't apply to many of us. The best growth I have experienced was from trial plantings into an unpromising patch of freshly cut bamboo. I could barely scrape a hole the size of my fist due to the roots etc but the soil life must have been amazing because growth has been extraordinary compared to the rest of my garden. Lots of interesting fungi appear in the autumn so I assume the soil is full of mycos. I'm feeding it with manure and mulch until the palms go in later this year (once I get rid of the last of the bamboo regrowth).

cheers

R

[Palmə häl′ik]

Are we driving you crazy yet Ray?

BTW can I have one of the best ones?

Are we driving you crazy yet Ray?

BTW can I have one of the best ones?

LoveIt!

C'mon now. Of course you can.

The momma tree's prolly sittin' on your property...

Check out these cool pics:

~Ray

[MARKGREYWA]

G'day Ken must have had a few too many beers when I posted, I seem like a zealot! I will admit I always go with a little bit in moderation, you can always foliar feed to give them the micros just like you could provide liquid humates instead of compost to get up the humic acids and organic matter in the soil, my theory 'a bit of everything should help build a robust living soil and palm'. And here in Western Australia we have the poorest and oldest soils on the planet , basically a hydroponic growing medium.

[Palmə häl′ik]

I decided to repot them all, and mix in my synthetic fertilizer.

Dynamite 13.13.13 4tsp per container. I mixed these up individually, so the ferts are equal per container...

I could already tell the ones that're innoculated have better root systems...

I'll take pictures of the roots during the next re-potting...

The tray on the left, which gets the MyCo, are all bifid.

The tray on the right, which does not get the MyCo, is not far behind them...

[Ken Johnson]

Thing is Ray the myco helps (fixes nitrogen) so the ones without fertilizer may be smaller with less roots. What you still dont know is how well the myco does compaired to fertilizer.

[Palmə häl′ik]

Ken... I think your not followin' whats happenin'...

All twenty of these A. maximas are getting Dynamite 13.13.13

All twenty got repotted with 1 full tsp of Dynamite...

Half of them, which would be one full tray... Gets the MyCo.

The other half, which would be the other full tray, doesn't get MyCo.

To sum it up, they all get Dynamite 13.13.13

Only ten of these are getting the MyCo innoculant...

I can already tell the root systems on the MyCo innoculated ones are better...

They're also well on their way; havin' gone bifid already...

The tray that wasn't innoculated, have yet to go bifid...

~Ray.

[Tyrone]

Would love to see this experiment with those difficult to grow seedlings, ie Geonoma sp, Clinostigma harlandii, C savoryanum and those small pencil stemmed Dypsis that probably need miccorhyza's to absorb phosphorus from the soil when young. A maxima is a vigorous easy grow, but it sounds like the innoculated ones have improved growth.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Palmə häl′ik]

Very true Tyrone.

The maximas are what I had on hand though...

The MyCo's not cheap either...

Luckily, what I have was given to me... I just may need to invest in a jar myself...

~Ray.

[Tyrone]

Combine the micorhyza's with nitrogen fixing bacteria and humates and you'd have unreal growth. Yes those innoculants aren't cheap. Never tried Myco's but have tried nitrogen fixing bacteria. I didn't have a control though so it was hard to tell how effective it was. The garden did go nuts after I put it down though. I used enough for 10000m2 on my 550m2 garden.

Keep us informed how it all turns out. I'm almost 100% sure that those difficult little seedlings which take forever to grow any roots need a Myco to get them going. Those ones tend to rot away from fungal damage. I speculate that the Myco's benefits are twofold. One increases the roots efficiency and the other fights off bad fungi and bacteria. Take that away and it's like they have no immune system and they die.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Palmə häl′ik]

YesSir Tyrone.

The tricoderma bacterias are supposed to fight off fungals such as pythrium and other nasties...

This is brilliant science.

I won't be the only one using this...

~Ray.

[monkeyranch]

Best primer on the subject of soil food web/microbiology is "Teaming with Microbes: The Organic Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web (Revised Edition)" published by Timber Press. Book Link. I have been growing exclusively organically for 20 years and this book will help you understand the fundamental differences between chemical and organic methods. Work with the soil biota and not against it by applying chemicals. It is not necessarily the acidity of chemical fertilizers that is the problem but the salt content which accumulates and harms the balance of soil life. Microbe populations are always in flux in relation to available food types. If you can envision a simplified forest system with deer browsing plants, then pooping to fertilize the flora, and wolves/Mtn. Lions keeping the deer population in check from overgrazing the forest, and disease limiting the predators to complete the cycle and maintain a healthy forest. Now transpose these food relationships to the smaller scale of soil systems and you get the picture. The notion is to "feed the soil system" and not just the palm/plant you are trying to grow. Fungi and other soil biota are essential first players in the creation of soil as they secrete enzymes and acids which dissolve minerals from the parent bedrock and begin soil formation processes. The minerals, now composing the fungi, are then consumed by other organisms (bacteria first then others) to create the organic, carbon-based, life which then dies and decays further enriching the soil. This is a vast topic which is difficult to summarize concisely without starting to ramble, so read the book. I'm not trying to promote this book for sales purposes but it is undeniably the best on the topic. I am a big fan of free, public knowledge so see if your local library has it or request that they obtain it. While your at it check out a whole lot of books on a regular basis as most libraries' funding is tied to circulation numbers. If local governments see that the libraries are well patronized, they should fund them better.

Edited June 13, 2011 by monkeyranch

[monkeyranch]

BTW Trichoderma bacteria are beneficial in consuming pathogenic bacteria and fungi but they are voracious predators and after they have exhausted the bad critters they move on to eat beneficial fungi. Trichoderma are good if you have had a pathogen outbreak but should only be used understanding that the population of beneficial microbes will have to be restored. There are rarely "black and white" situations but more often a continuum of conditions with many shades of grey in between. Try a lactobacillus culture instead if you need speed up the decay of organic matter. This will create healthier, more aerobic soil conditions which discourage pathogens. Also there are two categories of mycorrhizal fungi: ecto- which attach to root surfaces and then extend out into the soil to obtain nutrients, and endo- which dwell between the cell walls within the plant. Both symbiotically obtain nutrients from the soil for themselves and exude nutrients that the plant uses. In return the plant provides a home for the fungi and secretes carbohydrates for the fungi to use. Both types prevent colonization by pathogens because they occupy the space where the bad critters want to attack.

Edited June 13, 2011 by monkeyranch

[monkeyranch]

Try azomite or glacial rock dust for an organic source of trace minerals and micro nutrients. Greensand (slow release) and potash (fast) for potassium. Granulated K-Mag for potassium and magnesium. Kelp for Fe, K, and micros. Iron sulfate for Fe and sulfur. Blood meal(very fast acting) for nitrogen and Fe. Compost, soybean or cottonseed meal, feather meal, and alfalfa meal for nitrogen and hummus formation. Oyster shell for calcium. Fish bone meal, and soft rock phosphate for phosphorus (not so important for palms but essential for fruiting/flowering crops). Crab meal provides chitin which is a microbe food (think dead insect carapaces decaying into soil). Fish hydrolysate is a useful liquid nutrient for occasional fast nitrogen correction. I use all of these in frugal amounts, trying to provide a variety of nutrient types (think of how unhealthy you would be if you only had the same food everyday). A common misconception is that soil microbes "eat up" nutrients removing them from the soil. It is just the opposite- they sequester and store them in their lifeform until they decay and re-release them. The common observation of compost locking out nitrogen and causing yellowing is because a lot of compost is sold still "green" and not finished decaying. Usually in a few months the compost "finishes" and then begins to release nutrients. This all reminds me of Pogobob (I think) describing how in his healthy garden he chops up all palm waste ( fronds, etc.) into pieces as a mulch right on top of his beds. His place looks awesome.

Edited June 13, 2011 by monkeyranch

[trioderob]

all I know is that I added a ton of organics to my palms soil and they love it.

I do also add "palm plus" 4 times a year and add kelp extract to the water 1 time every month

look at what the world record vegatable growers use - "COMPOST TEA"

that will really get a palm growing !

bottom line - organics are good

Edited June 13, 2011 by trioderob

[Gonzer]

I'm going to play the Devil's advocate and say I don't see a stitch of difference between these two plants above soil level.

[Ken Johnson]

Try using all organics for your palms in South Florida and as they will grow don't look at your neighbors palms where they use synthetics or you will be realy jealous.

[Tyrone]

The worst soils in the world are the soils of SW Australia as they are the oldest rocks and sands on the planet. Organic content in some of these soils is almost non measurable. I use organics and some synthetics, but I'm using less synthetics than before and I'm not noticing any lack of growth, and my garden has exploded in the 11 years I've had it up and running. Some of my garden areas are only 4 years old and I have palms that are approaching 30ft tall and are deep green in those areas. Why? I have a humus layer now and that's what it's all about. The humus layer has a crumb structure and you can see all the air pockets in their that hold nutrients and moisture. So any synthetics I do use get trapped in the organic layer waiting for the palm to come along and eat what it wants. If I had left it sand, and had used only synthetics, 90% of what I used would have ended up in the water table and I very well would have sandy salt ladened soil.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Tyrone]

I'm going to play the Devil's advocate and say I don't see a stitch of difference between these two plants above soil level.

Try not watering these plants. Which one will be dead first? But you do bring up an interesting point. Just because you have green growth doesn't mean you have roots that will handle drought, or in fact that your plants are healthy.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Palmə häl′ik]

Sandy FL soils need to be amended BIG TIME.

You can believe whereever that pumpkin grew, that soil was HIGHLY fertile.

That 'ol boy growin' that thing had been working on the ground it grew in fer a LONG time...

I'll betcha the microbial activity heats up the soil, kinda like friction causes heat; ya know...

This could also increase cold tolerance I'm thinkin'

All the more reason to enrich our sandy soils...

I'm sure once the soils ALIVE, synthetics are quite meaningless...

Also just realized that this jar of MyCo also has 2%HumicAcid (derived from Leonardite)

~Ray.

[MARKGREYWA]

Yes Ray that is a good point about microbial action generating heat. I once rooted some hard to strike old english mulberry cuttings in a compost heap using the decomposition as bottom heat, it is the only time I have been able to strike cuttings from this tree.I also heard the Romans in the old days used piles of compost to provide heat to grow out of season cucumbers. The humate product I used was derived from Lignite a really black tarry substance but you just pour it on diluted no need to dig!

[Palmə häl′ik]

Weekend Update:

The tray on the left gets MyCo, while the tray on the right, doesn't...

[Palmə häl′ik]

..somemore cool info

http://www.hollandsgiants.com/mycorrhizae.html