Palms of Brookings Oregon

[Chester B]

1 hour ago, NBTX11 said:

The only reason I said zone 9 is because we don’t see towering Washingtonias which led me to believe it wasn’t near a zone 10. They can be killed off in a zone 9 every 25-30 years. If it was a true zone 10 there should be very tall Washingtonia. Or is that a function of the cool climate. 

Cool climate. There are Washingtonia in the 20-30 foot range. This is a different type of zone 9b/10 where year round the temps are cool/moderate with not much difference between summer and winter. I don’t believe Arctic air can ever make it down that far as it has a hard time making it to me and it’s another almost 6 hours south. The west coast is protected by mountains unlike most of the continent. 
 

Brookings is also very isolated, you’re a couple hours away from any sizeable city so availability of a palm as common as Washingtonia isn’t all that great and may have only become available in the last decade or two. 

[NBTX11]

2 hours ago, Chester B said:

Cool climate. There are Washingtonia in the 20-30 foot range. This is a different type of zone 9b/10 where year round the temps are cool/moderate with not much difference between summer and winter. I don’t believe Arctic air can ever make it down that far as it has a hard time making it to me and it’s another almost 6 hours south. The west coast is protected by mountains unlike most of the continent. 
 

Brookings is also very isolated, you’re a couple hours away from any sizeable city so availability of a palm as common as Washingtonia isn’t all that great and may have only become available in the last decade or two. 

That's really small honestly.  They can get to 30 feet in Texas in just a few years, probably around 10 years.  There are 60+ foot Washingtonia's in downtown San Antonio and it's barely a zone 9a.  You just have to watch out for a 1989 o 2021 freeze than can zap some or most of them, unlike a Brooking probably.  I guess the cool climate really slows them down.  

[Ryland]

6 hours ago, NBTX11 said:

The only reason I said zone 9 is because we don’t see towering Washingtonias which led me to believe it wasn’t near a zone 10. They can be killed off in a zone 9 every 25-30 years. If it was a true zone 10 there should be very tall Washingtonia. Or is that a function of the cool climate. 

I think it’s a result of two things (though admit I don’t have proof) - 1. They don’t grow anywhere near as fast in the cool climate as they would with hot summers, which is definitely observable here in England, 2. I suspect they weren’t readily available as garden plants until the last couple decades in the area. The older coastal towns from Eureka up to Brookings have a number of very old CIDP. There must have been an import of these these exotics to the region around 50-70 years ago and the surviving individuals are massive - more so in the Eureka area (older?). Guessing they just didn’t have Washingtonia in the garden centres back then. The low temps are fine for them, it almost never goes below 30°F in Brookings. I think there was a freak event of 25°F or so about a decade ago though.

[Banana Belt]

There was a home in Brookings area that used to have a half dozen 30 foot Washingtonia's along Ocean View Drive, but new owners from southern california moved in and removed all of them a few years ago.  The new owners said they hated palm trees and replaced them with Pine and Sitka spruce.  Brookings does not have any really tall Washingtonia's because most of the people moving here are from Southern CA and don't seem to like Palm trees, and for this and other reasons the palms rarely live long enough to grow tall.  Also the cool climate is slow growing for palms, not like Texas or Southern California.  There once was a 40 foot tall Washingtonia that was 50 years old, but it too got cut down.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Banana Belt

[Las Palmas Norte]

A typical example comparing the Oregon Pacific coast and inland locations. Slower growth for heat loving palms along the coast.

 

 

[Chester B]

[Banana Belt]

Chester B, that is absolutely the typical weather in Brookings, Oregon.  Hard for people to understand it unless they know some of the geographic and climatic facts creating the West Coast type climates.  First fact is the Pacific off Northern Ca, Oregon and Washington is cold between 40 and mid 50's year around and stays that way along the nearshore because of deep water upwellings that are pulled to the suface next to the continental shelf.  This cold water keeps the air temperatures next to the Ocean Suface and the coast communities up and down the coast cold with a dense like blanket of cold Marine air which is hard to displace out.  This can change on occasion  in Brookings area when adiabatic air is forced downslope on the north side of a circulating low preassure centered to the south.  Rotating air around the low preassure is pulled down from higher elevations and heats up by compression as it drops in elevation.  Brookings has a weird weather and climate when compared to most of North America. 

The above chart kindly shown by Chester B, show averages of the months which suggests very little variation, however weird variations do occur  which the Brookings people will attest to such as a cold winter type climate in middle of summer (like right now), where it is hot 90 to over 100 inland about 60 miles to the east, yet Brookings is 59 with high fog and a cold layer of Marine air at the surface.  On the reverse side during winter Brookings experiences up to a month or more of summer 70 to 85 degree days during any one of the Dec, Jan., or Feb. months.  It is normal during any given year for the Brookings area to have warm days in the 80's during mid winter when at same time to the east 60 miles people are experience sub freezing fog day and night for weeks. 

Heat loving plants do poorly in Brookings, such as tomatoes, cycads, ochra, grapes and more.  For same reason heat loving palms like true dates do poorly, only the Canary Island palm does well because it is used to cooler climates than other dates.

Below is picture of a 40 year old Cycad that has been outside in Brookings garden.  It is very sad because it is always cold.

 Above the cycad is a 45 year old Owari Satsuma Mandarin on flying dragon rootstock, and to right is a 40 year old Feijoa which produces wonderful fruit.

[NBTX11]

How far up the coast can the CIDP be grown to the heights seen in Brookings.  Just out of curiosity, I looked up Eureka CA palm trees and it appears there are even larger ones there.  Like really massive and tall. 

[Chester B]

11 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

How far up the coast can the CIDP be grown to the heights seen in Brookings.  Just out of curiosity, I looked up Eureka CA palm trees and it appears there are even larger ones there.  Like really massive and tall. 

I can confirm fully mature CIDP in Gold Beach, beyond that I have only seen medium (still big) ones.

[teddytn]

1 hour ago, Chester B said:

That’s some weird weather, honestly surprised there’s palms that big there. Seems like they wouldn’t thrive there, other than maybe trachys. Looks more like the perfect place to grow ferns than palms lol

[Chester B]

7 minutes ago, teddytn said:

That’s some weird weather, honestly surprised there’s palms that big there. Seems like they wouldn’t thrive there, other than maybe trachys. Looks more like the perfect place to grow ferns than palms lol

Similar weather, although a little warmer in summer and colder in winter.  As we have seen on this forum they have some big palms too.

 

[teddytn]

11 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Similar weather, although a little warmer in summer and colder in winter.  As we have seen on this forum they have some big palms too.

 

You’re absolutely right. Looking at the numbers and then pics of the palms, seem like they shouldn’t match on paper at least. The temps for London right there and seeing the massive washies they’ve got is a head scratcher, must be warm enough in the winter to not take too much damage if any, the summer temps don’t seem hot enough to be able to recover from back to back “bad” winters. Really cool honestly 

[Ryland]

27 minutes ago, teddytn said:

You’re absolutely right. Looking at the numbers and then pics of the palms, seem like they shouldn’t match on paper at least. The temps for London right there and seeing the massive washies they’ve got is a head scratcher, must be warm enough in the winter to not take too much damage if any, the summer temps don’t seem hot enough to be able to recover from back to back “bad” winters. Really cool honestly 

You’re exactly right. They don’t take damage in the winter in London but there’s enough summer heat for them to put on a lot of growth. With Washingtonia they grow so fast when it’s warm, you don’t even need a really hot summer to make a recovery from damage. So back to back bad winters aren’t too much of a problem, besides that it almost never happens. Where I live is a bit cooler in summer but about the same in winter as London. The warmest month average high is about 70°F, similar to Brookings, and the washie loves it.

I used to live in Arcata which had even cooler summers than Brookings but similar winters. I’d say they grow a little bit faster there despite the cooler summers, probably because the winters are so mild. Mine doesn’t grow at all in the November to March period here in Manchester.

[NBTX11]

Side question. Looks like Redding CA has a lot of palm trees. Does anyone know if they go further north of Redding inland?  Medford?  By palm trees, I mean mature ones, not 5 foot tall that gets protected every winter. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by NBTX11

[Chester B]

52 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

Side question. Looks like Redding CA has a lot of palm trees. Does anyone know if they go further north of Redding inland?  Medford?  By palm trees, I mean mature ones, not 5 foot tall that gets protected every winter. 

Yes palms are in Medford.  But which Palms are you referring to, because Trachys grow all the way up into BC inland.

[Banana Belt]

http://www.hookedonpalms.com/

Hooked on Palms a nursery in the Medford, Oregon area has palm photos from Brookings, Coos Bay, Grants Pass, Medford and many other places in Southwestern Oregon.  Jason is very fond of Palms, extremely knowledgable and has a good collection with contacts for the many species that will grow in this area.   Check his site and look through the pictures.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Banana Belt

[NBTX11]

2 hours ago, Chester B said:

Yes palms are in Medford.  But which Palms are you referring to, because Trachys grow all the way up into BC inland.

Well I was mainly referring to the "classic" palm growing areas, such as medium to tall Sabals, washingtonias and canary island dates.  In other words, areas that "look" palmy.

In Texas you generally need to get to Austin for palms to make a dramatic impact on the casual observer (well until 2021 took out a good number of them).  Yeah there are palms all the way up to Dallas and Fort Worth, but they are fewer and farther in-between the farther you go up I35.  Waco has some older Washingtonia Filifera though. 

I know that Trachycarpus go all the way to BC.  The pictures I have seen of Redding CA show tall washingtonias and dates and looks somewhat similar to areas further south.

Edited August 9, 2022 by NBTX11

[Ryland]

8 hours ago, NBTX11 said:

Well I was mainly referring to the "classic" palm growing areas, such as medium to tall Sabals, washingtonias and canary island dates.  In other words, areas that "look" palmy.

In Texas you generally need to get to Austin for palms to make a dramatic impact on the casual observer (well until 2021 took out a good number of them).  Yeah there are palms all the way up to Dallas and Fort Worth, but they are fewer and farther in-between the farther you go up I35.  Waco has some older Washingtonia Filifera though. 

I know that Trachycarpus go all the way to BC.  The pictures I have seen of Redding CA show tall washingtonias and dates and looks somewhat similar to areas further south.

The simple answer is no, then.  They can grow around Shasta Lake but that's pretty much the limit.  This always surprised me - I've driven I-5 through this route many times and it's amazing that there is really no transition.  You go very rapidly from mountainous, elevated, and colder terrain to hot and palmy Redding.  Further north still, only very isolated mature individuals (that aren't trachycarpus) exist and they tend to be grown by people like us.  I planted a Washingtonia in Ashland in 2008 which is now about 30 feet tall - it's in a good spot right up against the south side of my mother's house though.

This is why Brookings and the Oregon Coast are so special, they're the northernmost areas in North America where mature "more exciting" varieties can reliably be found.

[Jtee]

21 hours ago, teddytn said:

That’s some weird weather, honestly surprised there’s palms that big there. Seems like they wouldn’t thrive there, other than maybe trachys. Looks more like the perfect place to grow ferns than palms lol

That’s what I’m saying, you would think palms would want that heat to grow healthy and long term. While being mild in winter it’s one of the coldest places in the country in the summer. 

[Little Tex]

On 8/8/2022 at 8:23 PM, NBTX11 said:

The only reason I said zone 9 is because we don’t see towering Washingtonias which led me to believe it wasn’t near a zone 10. They can be killed off in a zone 9 every 25-30 years. If it was a true zone 10 there should be very tall Washingtonia. Or is that a function of the cool climate. 

yeah Washingtonia arent going to tower, in a climate like that, there are towering ones in Rio Grande city, and Mcallen, and thats 9b

[NBTX11]

1 hour ago, Little Tex said:

yeah Washingtonia arent going to tower, in a climate like that, there are towering ones in Rio Grande city, and Mcallen, and thats 9b

There are towering ones in downtown San Antonio zone 9a I posted in in the palmageddon thread a while back. 60-70 feet. These are not the tallest just some examples I photographed downtown. 

Edited August 10, 2022 by NBTX11

[Chester B]

12 hours ago, Ryland said:

The simple answer is no, then.  They can grow around Shasta Lake but that's pretty much the limit.  This always surprised me - I've driven I-5 through this route many times and it's amazing that there is really no transition.  You go very rapidly from mountainous, elevated, and colder terrain to hot and palmy Redding.  Further north still, only very isolated mature individuals (that aren't trachycarpus) exist and they tend to be grown by people like us.  I planted a Washingtonia in Ashland in 2008 which is now about 30 feet tall - it's in a good spot right up against the south side of my mother's house though.

Most gardens here seem to follow the Japanese style, lots of Japanese maples and rhododendrons, or they mimic what is planted in the Northeast.  The hotter, drier and longer summers seem to be taking more of these plants out each year.  There is a growing trend of drought tolerant/resistant plantings using many of the plants you see in drier areas of the west.

As far as palms are concerned, Trachycarpus are ubiquitous and are used just like any other tree, but there isn't a real "palmy culture" here.  Yes we can grow many species, but local availability is pretty weak.  The handful of palm nurseries also focus only on the staples - Trachycarpus fortunei, T wagnerianus, Chamerops humilis, Butia and Jubaea.  Pretty much anything else you're having to ship in.

On top of that there is a contingence of people who have a negative view of the palms in our area, they think they don't belong here and think those of us who grow them as sad.  No joke.  I've ready many negative comments about palms, and Mediterranean style gardens in general.

[MrTropical]

On 2/5/2022 at 6:46 PM, Hutch said:

Here are some palms I found near where I'm staying...i will take a bunch more photos tomarrow headed to the beach..

Beautiful! Very nice palms. 

[ShadyDan]

2 hours ago, Chester B said:

Most gardens here seem to follow the Japanese style, lots of Japanese maples and rhododendrons, or they mimic what is planted in the Northeast.  The hotter, drier and longer summers seem to be taking more of these plants out each year.  There is a growing trend of drought tolerant/resistant plantings using many of the plants you see in drier areas of the west.

As far as palms are concerned, Trachycarpus are ubiquitous and are used just like any other tree, but there isn't a real "palmy culture" here.  Yes we can grow many species, but local availability is pretty weak.  The handful of palm nurseries also focus only on the staples - Trachycarpus fortunei, T wagnerianus, Chamerops humilis, Butia and Jubaea.  Pretty much anything else you're having to ship in.

On top of that there is a contingence of people who have a negative view of the palms in our area, they think they don't belong here and think those of us who grow them as sad.  No joke.  I've ready many negative comments about palms, and Mediterranean style gardens in general.

The palmy culture reference is a problem exacerbated even further north of the border. Good luck finding anything other than T. fortunei and maybe the odd C. humilis at any nursery up here. Trying to bring anything up from down south is big $$$ due to phyto requirements. Yea everyone is in love with Japanese maples and the like up here too... I find them incredibly boring plus they are wimpy in drought conditions. Most of the street trees here are Eastern species too, which suffer in dry summers (with the exception of Eastern oaks... they do OK). I'm a forester by trade, and I'd really love to get an urban forester job one day in Nanaimo or Parksville to plant things like make sense. Like Mediterranean species, PNW/California natives, Eucalyptus, etc...  More palm trees too of course. Years ago in Parksville (a touristy beach town), a councilor had plans to line a lot of their streets in the downtown core and near the water with palms to give it a more summer beach vibe (would have been super cool!). But the local citizens committee shot it down because it was too "California" and it never happened. Now there is a bunch of ratty looking ornamental cherries and such. Go figure.

[Chester B]

@ShadyDan it’s starting to look like fall around here with all the eastern species dropping leaves. It happens every year in August. You’d think people would get the idea at some point. 
 

I’m not saying to plant tropicals or palms but at least trees that look good half the year.  With the maples and such it’s No leaves  5-6 months of the year, one month to leaf out and 2-3 months where they look decent, and then 2 months where they look like they’re dieing. What’s the point?

I will say the city arborists are getting better at replacing failing trees with more suitable ones.

In my neighborhood we’re responsible for our street trees but the county planted them originally. Red maple, sweet gum and Bradford pear. They have all failed and 90% have been removed and not replaced.  Original planting mid 90s.

They did a real nice job at the train station here in Portland. Lots of palms and interesting plants. Looks great.  

[Foxpalms]

2 hours ago, Chester B said:

@ShadyDan it’s starting to look like fall around here with all the eastern species dropping leaves. It happens every year in August. You’d think people would get the idea at some point. 
 

I’m not saying to plant tropicals or palms but at least trees that look good half the year.  With the maples and such it’s No leaves  5-6 months of the year, one month to leaf out and 2-3 months where they look decent, and then 2 months where they look like they’re dieing. What’s the point?

I will say the city arborists are getting better at replacing failing trees with more suitable ones.

In my neighborhood we’re responsible for our street trees but the county planted them originally. Red maple, sweet gum and Bradford pear. They have all failed and 90% have been removed and not replaced.  Original planting mid 90s.

They did a real nice job at the train station here in Portland. Lots of palms and interesting plants. Looks great.  

That's what I think here. Except tropical trees such jacaranda, Norfolk Island pines, the zone 9 eucalyptus species , pride of bolivia and citrus trees such as lemons, limes and oranges grow fine here. It would be much nicer if they planted evergreen trees and ones that don't loose their leaves during high temperatures. I think the problem is lot of city plantings take the UK's climate into consideration for suitable plants rather than the city itself. Since London is warmer than anywhere else in summer and nothing is irrigated certain tree species suffer and look bad, usually loose their leaves early too. Would be nice to see cidp and Washingtonia used along pavements and trees that look nice here. I wonder about true date palms as well since the summers are hotter than San Francisco and they have them and the winters aren't cold enough to kill or even damage them in central London. We also have  less rain annually than San Francisco and some Mediterranean areas that have them .They do grow slowly here but they look nicer than the CIDP in my opinion mine never have any issues.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Foxpalms

[Las Palmas Norte]

On 8/9/2022 at 1:22 AM, Ryland said:

2. I suspect they weren’t readily available as garden plants until the last couple decades in the area.

Washingtonia have been available for many decades, even up into British Columbia (where they won't survive).

[Las Palmas Norte]

16 hours ago, ShadyDan said:

Years ago in Parksville (a touristy beach town), a councilor had plans to line a lot of their streets in the downtown core and near the water with palms to give it a more summer beach vibe (would have been super cool!). But the local citizens committee shot it down because it was too "California" and it never happened. Now there is a bunch of ratty looking ornamental cherries and such. Go figure.

About 15 years ago, that also happened in Nanaimo along the waterfront walk, north of Swy-a-lana lagoon. 

 

[Foxpalms]

On 8/9/2022 at 6:55 PM, teddytn said:

You’re absolutely right. Looking at the numbers and then pics of the palms, seem like they shouldn’t match on paper at least. The temps for London right there and seeing the massive washies they’ve got is a head scratcher, must be warm enough in the winter to not take too much damage if any, the summer temps don’t seem hot enough to be able to recover from back to back “bad” winters. Really cool honestly 

I'd say those temperatures are slightly off but saying that those temperatures are probably for greater London as a whole rather than central London which is slightly warmer on average for the year. I'd say 50f high with a low of 42f is more accurate for here in winter and a high of around 76f with a low of 61f.5 for summer (July,August). The coldest parts of London (west London) such as heathrow are around 46.5f with a low of 37.5f in winter and 77f in summer with a low of 59f in summer. Either way the Washingtonia don't get damaged here even in the coldest parts in winter the lowest temperature is between 23-24f on an average year while here it's would be between 28-32f. The only thing missing is the lack of sunshine hours.  Palms around London are similar to Brookings. The most popular palm species  in London are chamaerops humilis followed by CIDP, trachycarpus fortunei, Washingtonia filibusta,  butias, Washingtonia robusta, Washingtonia filifera, Howea forsteriana (might be surprised to know there are thousands of these outside restaurants and shops in central London that stay outside all winter and are never protected) then maybe brahea armata. Uncommon ones are chamaedorea, brahea edulis, sabals, livistona, syagrus romanzoffianana, archontophoenix cunninghamiana, Rhopalostylis sapida, Jubaea chilensis phoenix dactylifera, phoenix sylvestris and the other phoenix species, parajubaea, rhapis excelsa, nannorrhops ritchiana, arenga, some of the cool tolerant zone 9b dypsis species, junia australis, and ceroxylon. Of course there are more but thats a good insight.  Also citrus trees (lemons, limes, oranges) Norfolk Island pines, jacaranda, bougainvillea and Swiss cheese plants. Pretty good variety of plants considering this is 51n!

[Foxpalms]

On 8/9/2022 at 6:55 PM, teddytn said:

 

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by Foxpalms