Replacing Oak with Foxtail or other Palm Help

[AspiringDana]

On 11/23/2021 at 7:33 PM, Merlyn said:

Then a neighbor gave me a 6' tall Pygmy Date, and with the second shovel in the ground I hit it AGAIN!!!    The problem is that the pipe went under the driveway at a weird angle. I have now marked it with a couple of flags and random rocks.

OMG! That's quite a story! Thank you so much for sharing it. It makes me not feel so awful about 1. Paying the damn stump grinder who most likely knew he hit that pipe and 2. For having the HOA's irrigation service take several hours to fix the pipe yesterday. What a mess, but yours must have been incredibly frustrating for you!  

I will also mark the pipe! Good idea! Thanks again @Merlyn!

[AspiringDana]

On 11/21/2021 at 11:05 PM, D Palm said:

I use fertilome root stimulator for new plantings, then after about 3-4 months proper granular fertilizer. The liquid root stimulator will help reduce transplant shock and encourage root development.

@D Palm Thanks for that tip! Much apprecaited!

[AspiringDana]

On 11/23/2021 at 10:44 PM, D Palm said:

Irrigation systems are a luxury in Florida. When I was stationed in So Cal it is a necessity if you want something besides desertscapee. If it was me I would cap it. I enjoy watering the yard with a garden hose during dry periods.

@D Palm Thats a HARD NO from me on the "always hand water"!! I'm just not that gal. 

[AspiringDana]

On 11/22/2021 at 7:46 AM, petiole10 said:

I have bought some juvenile Foxtails here in Portugal to hopefully be happy with the southern european climate.

@petiole10 Best of luck with the new garden! I hear great things about Portugal.

I'm glad you got something out of this thread as there are so many helpful Palm aficionados out there!

I am so grateful. 

[AspiringDana]

On 11/25/2021 at 12:10 PM, Merlyn said:

"Adventitious roots" are common in many palm species, and generally considered evidence of a happy palm.  I have a couple of queens in the same super-irrigated area, and they have developed a lot of adventitious roots.  Around the corner in a drier area they are even bigger and more impressive.  I have also seen some Phoenix Sylvestris with adventitious roots at least 2 feet up the trunk!

Hello it’s been a while! I noticed this past week that my Foxtail maybe has some of these issues due to overwatering from the HOA irrigation. The bottom of the tree’s bark looks splayed out and I do see some above soil roots formed. Should I be concerned? 

[Merlyn]

@AspiringDana adventitious roots are pretty normal, especially for palms planted as a triple.  As the bases expand they'll push each other away, and may end up pushing themselves slightly up out of the ground too.  Generally you want just enough dirt/mulch to cover the lowest roots, but not covering the lower trunk "bark" area with mulch or dirt.  Too high can trap moisture against the bottom of the trunk and cause lower trunk rot.  Having the mulch/dirt a little bit low is generally safer than too high.  I personally would not be concerned with the mulch/dirt depth in your photos.  You could leave it as is and add a bit more cosmetic mulch, just keep an inch or so of clearance between the mulch and the trunks. 

The only thing that's a little concerning is the location of the swingline pipe head.  It looks like it's pouring water directly on the center of the triple.  You don't want to do that, for the same above moisture/rot concerns.  It may never be a problem, but I'd move that pipe off to the side and put a bubbler or fan sprayers in the area.  Ideally you'd water with fans spraying outwards from the trunk area, covering under the canopy diameter of the palms.  But you don't want it spraying or pouring water directly on the trunks. 

[AspiringDana]

17 hours ago, Merlyn said:

@AspiringDana adventitious roots are pretty normal, especially for palms planted as a triple.  As the bases expand they'll push each other away, and may end up pushing themselves slightly up out of the ground too.  Generally you want just enough dirt/mulch to cover the lowest roots, but not covering the lower trunk "bark" area with mulch or dirt.  Too high can trap moisture against the bottom of the trunk and cause lower trunk rot.  Having the mulch/dirt a little bit low is generally safer than too high.  I personally would not be concerned with the mulch/dirt depth in your photos.  You could leave it as is and add a bit more cosmetic mulch, just keep an inch or so of clearance between the mulch and the trunks. 

The only thing that's a little concerning is the location of the swingline pipe head.  It looks like it's pouring water directly on the center of the triple.  You don't want to do that, for the same above moisture/rot concerns.  It may never be a problem, but I'd move that pipe off to the side and put a bubbler or fan sprayers in the area.  Ideally you'd water with fans spraying outwards from the trunk area, covering under the canopy diameter of the palms.  But you don't want it spraying or pouring water directly on the trunks. 

Thanks so much for this information @Merlyn!

FWIW I didn't set up this irrigation, my HOA's contractor did. I figured it wasn't the best option, but maybe I can persuade them to modify the single swingline pipe head. I am not entitled to any more irrigation in this location, so I have to work with what I have. The rest of the area is covered to some degree with long sprays, but I will have to check to see if they also cover the under-canopy area.

The ground there is pitched a certain way so I would like to know if this is appropriate irrigation for the swingline pipe? I can request that it be moved to the top end of the pitch, but I can't guarantee that the lower parts of this tree will be watered. Please keep in mind that I can't put any other sprays in this edged in location.

If my diagram isn't correct can you give me some idea where you'd put this pipe?

[sonoranfans]

Many of my my older palms have adventidious roots.  All with adventidious roots are very healthy.  Humid conditions favor adventidious roots.  The most importatn roots are far from the trunk since root areas increase with radius from the trunk.  Here is a Royal(40' plus) and 25-30' Chamberyronia Oliviformis showing several inches of these roots.  I really dont like the placement of the irrigator pipemitter where those three trunks meet.  The trunks are from different trees with independent protective membranes and keeping that contact area wet will invite disease and remember foxtails dont want to be wet all the time.  

[Merlyn]

@AspiringDana what I'd do is move the end of the swingline pipe over to the left or right side, whichever is convenient.  I'd screw on a 25psi drip regulator at the end, and then run a short loop around the palm.  Then you could stick on a couple of 90 degree or 180 degree fan sprayers, pointed away from the trunks.  If it's on drip you can easily reposition and re-aim the fans, replace them with bubblers, or anything you want in that area. 

I *think* this pressure regulator will screw onto the end of the swingline, it is probably 1/2" pipe thread on the outlet.  This would give you 4x outputs with 1/4" line, and you could use all 4 with small 90 degree fan sprayers-on-a-stick, or two 180s, or whatever you want.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Orbit-4-Port-Manifold-with-Adjustable-Flow-68005/203023254

and the sprayers I use are these:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rain-Bird-Drip-Half-Pattern-Microspray-on-Stake-MSSTKTH1SX/204751221

[AspiringDana]

20 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

@AspiringDana what I'd do is move the end of the swingline pipe over to the left or right side, whichever is convenient.  I'd screw on a 25psi drip regulator at the end, and then run a short loop around the palm.  Then you could stick on a couple of 90 degree or 180 degree fan sprayers, pointed away from the trunks.  If it's on drip you can easily reposition and re-aim the fans, replace them with bubblers, or anything you want in that area. 

I *think* this pressure regulator will screw onto the end of the swingline, it is probably 1/2" pipe thread on the outlet.  This would give you 4x outputs with 1/4" line, and you could use all 4 with small 90 degree fan sprayers-on-a-stick, or two 180s, or whatever you want.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Orbit-4-Port-Manifold-with-Adjustable-Flow-68005/203023254

and the sprayers I use are these:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rain-Bird-Drip-Half-Pattern-Microspray-on-Stake-MSSTKTH1SX/204751221

Thank you so much for this very detailed information @Merlyn! 😊🙏🏼 I am not sure how I can explain this better, but the HOA does not permit any alterations to their supplies or pipes in any way. In other words, I can ask the HOA's irrigation company to move the swingline pipe, but that's about it. No added bubblers, loops or fans unfortunately. TBH I was extremely lucky to even get this! Prior to this single swingline pipe I had 1 very long spray that hit the tree mid-trunk as it fanned around the yard's turf, completely missing the base area of the tree or under the canopy.  🙄 Just getting this set up took me a while. The irrigation here only runs 2x/week and they do try to lower the amount of water usage when we've had a lot of rain.

[Merlyn]

@AspiringDana I'd forgotten that the HOA wouldn't let you touch the irrigation.  That's why I live where there isn't an active HOA.    So if your only option is just to move it, I would put the end at the spot in your diagram, and twist the outlet so it aims to the left in the photo, away from the trunks.

[AspiringDana]

@Merlyn Thank you! I will discuss this with the HOA and see if I can't get the irrigation squared away.

[AspiringDana]

Can anyone offer help with this Foxtail Palm with stuck spears please?

It's been a while since I've posted here about these trees (above).

The HOA hand trimmed this smaller tree to death every chance it had, despite my repeated attempts telling them to stop and they now say I must remove this trunk it because it's dead. It's had 2 unopened spears since about February with very little rain here in Palm Beach County, FL. We are in a drought.

I read here on PalmTalk that I could use a Boron drench to activate the tree a bit and tried a very small amount (1 TBS/ 1 Gallon Water) which subsequently lead to the 2 larger trees showing bottom of frond damages worse within about a day.

I have requested the HOA to please let me wait 1 rainy season cycle to see if this tree will get all it needs after such bad drought conditions with hopes it isn't dead. The trunk feels strong to me.

If this needs more fertilization or care (with Boron/Borax & water) can anyone let me know the correct dosages and duplication amounts and timings so I can begin treatment in some way that won't kill the other 2 stronger palms?

If there's other care needed can anyone let me know please? I've tried hand watering focused on this trunk only with no success. I really don't want to lose this baby. Thank you! 🙏🏼🌴

[Merlyn]

@AspiringDana most landscapers are the bane of palm trees!  I bet they were cutting the smaller one to death because the fronds were crossing the sidewalk.  It's one reason I say "thanks but no thanks" if a "tree service" knocks on the door offering to trim my palms.  The other risk is that they never clean the loppers or chainsaw between lots, so if a neighbor's palm has a disease there's a risk they infect yours next.  That being said, here's my comments on your palms:

• The small one with the 2 stuck spears since February may indeed be dead.  I had one do this after a winter storm with frost around 27-28F.  It turns out it had an upper trunk infection (possibly Thielaviopsis fungus) and there just wasn't any live tissue inside the trunk.  If that's what it is, it is incurable.  Mine just sat there for a couple of months and then the top fell off in a random thunderstorm.  The Thielaviopsis fungus is floating around in the air all the time and it's transmissable to any freshly cut frond, and it is also transmissable using loppers going from palm to palm.  You can check by squeezing the trunk with your hands in various spots.  In particular the lower section has the burnt orange/brown spots that look like "trunk bleeding" that happens with Thielaviopsis infections.  The one trunk also looks misshapen like it's sunken in at various spots.  But that could just be the camera angle.  It might also just be hard water stains from the sprinklers too, so it's just a guess on my part:

• Boron is indeed a good fertilizer if you have a known visible deficiency.  I don't think 1tsp is enough to cause any damage to the palms, as it's reasonably close to a dose they'd get with most "palm" type fertilizers.  My guess is that the browned tips have more to do with the hot/cold/hot and dry weather right now.  The fronds on those two look otherwise pretty good, so they are probably just starting to "eat" the old fronds to recover nutrients.  UFL's recommendation is 2-4oz of borax in 5 gallons of water, and repeat after 5 months.  I'd do 1-2oz in 5 gallons and repeat in 1 month.
• If they haven't been fertilized with a palm-specific fertilizer (or have been getting hit with lawn fertilizer) then adding boron and a palm specific might be a good idea.  What have you (or the HOA) been doing for palm fertilizer?  For a palm that size the rule of thumb is 1.5lb of 8-2-12 for every 100sqft of canopy.  So for a 12' diameter crown that's ~113sqft, so you'd use about 1.7lb of 8-2-12.  Since it's a triple you'd use a bit more.  Common recommendations on here are PalmGain and Florikan, though I generally use the cheap Sunniland Palm 6-1-8.  Sprinkling that in the mulched ring (plus a bit into the yard area) is probably a good idea.

[AspiringDana]

 

@Merlyn Thank you so much for your response!! 🙏

I did my very best to alert and stop the HOA landscapers from touching this tree from the beginning and explained to them over and over again it self exfoliates fronds, but no matter what I did or said they kept trimming the hell out of it, especially this smaller tree.

Is the Thielaviopsis fungus you mention also something I should worry about spreading to the other 2 trees in this bunch? I did notice what looks like a white spongy fungus growing at the base of this tree. (See photos below). However I have also noticed mushrooms popping up in my yard about 2 ft from this tree and that's unusual. In the 15 years or so I've lived here I've never seen mushrooms on my turf, but we have recently been kind of overrun with cotton tail bunnies here so I just chalked it up to droppings. This white fungus on the tree does seem to be coming from the soil and is stuck to the trunk. I just noticed it yesterday.

If so is there a special treatment for the fungus? and if not, is there a special way to remove this tree without damaging the other 2 or spreading this fungus if I do remove the trunk?

I just fertilized the clump on Wednesday Apr-16-25 with Southern AG Palm Nutritional Spray using 1oz per 1 gallon of water totaling 5oz fertilizer with 5 gallons water total. I waited a day and then hand watered the trees for about 15-20 minutes. (I honestly have no idea what I’m doing overall, but took the suggestion from someone on FB who said they were able to revive Foxtail stuck spears using this formula for about 4-5 weeks of these  fertilizer treatments.

Thank you for your fertilizer suggestions and amounts! 🙏 I fertilized this palm clump a while ago using (I think) a Vigaro (or some other Home Depot) brand granular Palm specific fertilizer and also a separate adjunct of granular Manganese. I do not know the exact amounts and can't recall when I fertilized, but do tend to fertilize ornamentals and palms with granular beginning in January about 3-4x/year.

[Merlyn]

@AspiringDana there is another fungus called Ganoderma, it's soil-resident and also an incurable death sentence for palms.  If the mushroom thingy is coming out of the side of the trunk then it may be Ganoderma.  The spongy mushroom thingy in the photo also looks like stuff that pops up randomly in my yard and beds.  I get them all over in springtime after a rain, they pop up for a day or two and then melt away.  If it's actually coming out of the ground and just coincidentally stuck to the side of the palm then I wouldn't worry about it.  You can search for photos online to compare.  Here's a fact sheet on it from UFL:  https://www.juniperlandscaping.com/crm/media/public/Ganoderma.pdf

As far as treatments for them, both Thielaviopsis and Ganoderma are considered incurable.  Thielaviopsis typically infects the upper half of the palm and is spread through the air and contaminated pruning tools.  It's not known to be soil-resident.  Ganoderma is generally the lower trunk and is soil-resident for years.  Both can spread from palm to palm.

I've used the Southern Ag Palm Nutritional Spray on my seedlings, it's a good "micronutrient" supplement for any palm.  I've also used the Vigoro Palm 8-4-8 in the past.  Both that and the Sunniland 6-1-8 have a reasonable mix of nutrients, generally "good enough" for any normal plantings.  Would they grow better with PalmGain?  Maybe yes...maybe no.   

[AspiringDana]

@Merlyn Thank you for that info also on Ganoderma! That PDF does show a photo of a beginning "conk" that does look very much like what I see forming at the base of this trunk.

If it is Ganoderma and it is incurable and can spread, would it be best to remove the tree ASAP or wait until I can confirm it as a more mature looking "conk" similar to the photos in the PDF you linked? I really don't want to lose all 3 trees!

Is there a special way to pare this trunk away from the other 2 I should know about when removing if need be?

FWIW, I did feel the trunk and it's strong and sturdy all around, even in the areas at the bottom that appear reddish or look indented. No indent is present upon inspection, it's likely just copper(?) from the irrigation water which is drawn from our depleted lakes.

[Merlyn]

@AspiringDana I would wait a couple of days and see if the mushroom thingy dissipates.  If it's a random benign fungus then it should be pretty obvious pretty soon.  If it's really Ganoderma it'll keep growing and start forming that shelf appearance.  Another way to check is to break it off from the trunk and watch it to see if it keeps regrowing from the side of the trunk.  If it *does* keep regrowing from the side of the trunk it's probably Ganoderma and you should remove that palm.  You could cut in at ground level with a chainsaw and carefully cut that trunk without disturbing the other two.  Unfortunately Ganoderma is soil-resident and can get up into the other two, so it may end up killing all three.  Generally it's not recommended to replant in the same spot as any Ganoderma-infected palm, as the new ones might end up dying from the same fungus in a few years.

[AspiringDana]

@Merlyn Thank you for this discussion. Honestly, it's so depressing. Now that that conk has showed up I'll keep a very close eye on it.

The base of this smaller trunk is intertwined with the other 2 so I have no idea how to chain saw it away and not injure or harm the others. 😢 Also, how do I explain to the contractor who will be doing the cutting that his chain saw needs to be disinfected? What do you use on a chain saw for this purpose or rather how do you disinfect a chain saw? I'm imagining something like a bucket of hydrogen peroxide or something like that. Obviously I have no idea. Maybe it would be better to use an Axe instead for accuracy and easier disinfection? 

The other issue is, this was the place where a large oak resided and this clump of Foxtails were to be put in it's place. If none are there because they die due to fungal issues, I have no idea what do with that side of the house as far as landscaping. The Oak was majestic and gorgeous and this tree seemed like a good solution, but now you're saying I shouldn't replant anything there again. Is there any way to continue to treat the soil for fungal issues? Do people ever dig up that area completely and re-fill with new soil then replant?

I look at that damn HOA sprinkler head which sprays that small trunk and I'm incensed at the HOA irrigation contractors and their lack of response to change the location of it even after I requested it several times. smdh

[TropicsEnjoyer]

How is your hoa consistently messing with plants on your property? I’m not sure if you can… but is legal action a possibility considering they caused damages (death of palm). I would be fuming.  

And as for the sprinkler head, are you not allowed to touch it whatsoever?? Like you can’t even push it aside?

[Merlyn]

@AspiringDana yeah I understand the disappointment too well.  I transplanted a ~3 foot tall Jubaea x Butia last fall, precisely 1 week before Hurricane Milton came for his stapler and flattened it.  It hung on for about 6 months and finally rotted to pieces.  I look at it as an opportunity to plant something new, so I replaced it with an Arenga Westerhoutii that I grew from seed.  Maybe it's an opportunity for some white bird of paradise or something else new!

The critical part about Ganoderma is that it can stay resident in the soil for many years, potentially infecting any replacement palm.  So confirming the diagnosis is important for long-term plans.  If it does turn out to be Ganoderma then you'd want to pick a replacement spot maybe 10 or so feet from where the triple is located.  The good part is that Ganoderma that attacks old oak roots is not the same species as palm Ganoderma.  So *if* the mushroom thingy turns out to be coming from the ground and old oak roots from a previous planting, then it's Ganoderma Applanatum and distinct from Ganoderma Zonatum that attacks palms.  If you really want to use that spot for a palm again, digging out a good diameter hole and replacing the soil might work.  I've seen comments about it, but don't know if it does or doesn't work.

As far as removal, if you determine it's Ganoderma or otherwise is really dead, there really isn't a way to sterilize a chainsaw.  You'd have to wipe down the entire bar and chain, and inside the housing, and then soak it in alcohol or bleach to get inside the chain links.  And that won't really accomplish anything because the saw is going to fling Ganoderma-infested sawdust around anyway.  I can't think of a really good method for ensuring that fungus from the one doesn't get into the others.  Just being really careful when cutting it out may be the best option.  My personal method would be a reciprocating saw with a 6" carbide blade.  I just keep my pruning blades stored in a glass jar of 90% isopropyl alcohol.  I wipe them off after using them and stick them back in the jar.  I'd probably cut off the top about a foot from ground and then carefully go around the perimeter with the blade.  But I'd also probably screw up and slice up some of the other two palms anyway. 

[AspiringDana]

@TropicsEnjoyer Hello, I wish I could tell you the infinite amount of plantings and times I've had to restore my property due to the lousy service by the HOA's landscaping and irrigation companies. As you may already know, when you live in an HOA you are a lamb to the slaughter so to speak as you've essentially signed on to agree by contract to what the HOA BOARD decides to do with the entire community's property as well as part of your own, in this case all in front of the hose bib which is basically my entire front and side lawn. This means they control it all and you are not permitted to touch, modify or tap into the irrigation they provide. You are permitted to submit infinite work orders to attempt to get the services you desire and are entitled to, as well as even asking for "off contract" services that you can pay for ie: an irrigation modification, which I requested at least 2x already. It's exasperating and infuriating and frankly at some point you just give up until you have the energy again to put up the fight for what you deserve, or take the HOA to court which is a financially draining proposition.

[AspiringDana]

@Merlyn Thank you for this response and information. I'm so sorry to hear about the efforts with your palms and Milton. 🥲

I am keeping a close eye on that conk growth to see what develops. I googled the Oak Ganoderma Applanatum but the images look so similar to me as to what the Palm Ganoderma Zonatum looks like. Is there some special way to tell them apart other than the source of tree they're growing on. Essentially this clump of palms was planted directly on top of where the old Oak stump was and there was plenty of debris and still roots in the area. I think if I recall the contractor may have left a lot of the oak wood chips in the area rather than fill with soil for this tree.

15 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

My personal method would be a reciprocating saw with a 6" carbide blade.  I just keep my pruning blades stored in a glass jar of 90% isopropyl alcohol.  I wipe them off after using them and stick them back in the jar.  I'd probably cut off the top about a foot from ground and then carefully go around the perimeter with the blade. 

Thank you so much for this detailed info. IDK what I will tell the contractor that will have to come and do this about it other than they should positively disinfect everything they cut with and I don't know how well that will actually be accomplished. I am not physically able to do this job myself unfortunately, so I appreciate the discussion very much.

The conk seems to be growing (these are today's photos) and I am kind of afraid to try and remove it. I wouldn't even know what to remove it with at this point other than rubber gloves on my hands and some sort of knife for scraping I guess.

[Merlyn]

@AspiringDana the only way I know to tell palm from oak Ganoderma is just by the type of tree it's growing on.    You can send a sample out to a local Ag department for testing, but it may not be necessary.  I'd brush the couple of pieces of pine bark mulch off from below the conk and see if it is indeed growing out from the side of the trunk.  In the photo it looks like it is. 

If you want to slice it off and be 100% sure of where it's growing from, the conk at that stage should be fairly soft.  I'd guess any serrated kitchen knife would do it.  Gloves aren't strictly necessary as it's not a risk to you, but I would put the conk in a ziploc and toss it in the trash to prevent accidentally spreading more spores around.  If you want to leave it, chances are it'll grow visibly in the next couple of days.  If it doesn't melt away or turn into something like an Oyster Mushroom, it's probably Ganoderma.

[AspiringDana]

@Merlyn Thank you for that clarification! It makes sense.

Yes, this thing definitely looks like it's growing if not out of the trunk, then definitely onto the trunk. I will keep an eye on it for a day or so and if it continues to flatten its going! THANK YOU for your hand holding about this. Much appreciated! Sincerely! 😊🙏🌴

[TropicsEnjoyer]

3 hours ago, AspiringDana said:

@TropicsEnjoyer Hello, I wish I could tell you the infinite amount of plantings and times I've had to restore my property due to the lousy service by the HOA's landscaping and irrigation companies. As you may already know, when you live in an HOA you are a lamb to the slaughter so to speak as you've essentially signed on to agree by contract to what the HOA BOARD decides to do with the entire community's property as well as part of your own, in this case all in front of the hose bib which is basically my entire front and side lawn. This means they control it all and you are not permitted to touch, modify or tap into the irrigation they provide. You are permitted to submit infinite work orders to attempt to get the services you desire and are entitled to, as well as even asking for "off contract" services that you can pay for ie: an irrigation modification, which I requested at least 2x already. It's exasperating and infuriating and frankly at some point you just give up until you have the energy again to put up the fight for what you deserve, or take the HOA to court which is a financially draining proposition.

That sounds like hell to the average gardener. Thankfully my hoa is nowhere near this strict. I’m really sorry for your situation…

[AspiringDana]

@TropicsEnjoyer You would not believe all of the hoops they want us to jump through. Just the other day I was looking to replace 1 dying ornamental Croton with a Clusia. I went online to find our FORMS section in our HOA Documents list and the ACC/Landscape Committee Form wasn't online, so I used the most recent one I had on file I'd sent to them in 2024.

They actually rejected it and asked me to fill out the new form with the exact same information and I'm thinking ... "what a complete waste of everyone's time!" but if I don't do what they want, I won't get what I want. ::sigh::

FWIW this form also applies to laying mulch!! MULCH FFS!! 

HOA's like ours get nicknamed "The Gestapo" for a reason.

[AspiringDana]

UPDATE:  After a week of conversations with Arborists and confirmation of the dreaded Ganoderma, I have removed all 3 of this (beloved) clump of Foxtails and now it's just a sad flat area. 😭

The arborist did a stump grind but then just leveled the area with the remains of the ground up stump which kind of concerns me. He recommended I only sod in that area and not replant, which will leave the yard completely bare. 😭

I really want a tall "something" in that spot as it was formerly a 25yo Oak and then the Foxtail and really like the idea of using a Giant Birds of Paradise, which I have also learned will likely not survive Ganoderma. 😭

Q1: Does anyone out there have any ideas for a 10'-25'  tall option for planting?

Q2: Also, does anyone suggest that I dig out the filled spot completely and just get some new soil in there no matter what I plant, or will the ground stump decompose and it won't matter as the surrounding soil has Ganoderma anyway?

Q3: Are there any fungicidal treatments I can apply to the area to give it a fighting shot if and when I do replant there?

[Merlyn]

@AspiringDana sorry to hear about the Ganoderma deaths.  I have never heard of palm Ganoderma infecting White Bird of Paradise, a quick online search shows no results.  

I really don't know what the risk is for reinfection if you have someone dig out a big hole and replace the soil with fresh sandy mix.  Is it 1%, 10%, 50% or 100%?  Dunno.  One member here was intentionally growing a palm in the Ganoderma-infested stump of an old dead palm.  But Eric @ Leu Gardens said they had a big area with a continuing 30+ year infection, and he said they expanded the cycad garden into that area since cycads are immune.  

I'm not aware of any fungicides that actually work on Ganoderma.  There were some references to an "azole" group that might do something, but no real studies that say "x" works.

[AspiringDana]

@Merlyn Thank you for your response!

I googled "Are giant birds of paradise resistant to Ganoderma" and got this AI generated response. Whether it's accurate or not, IDK, but it does have references... Curious to know what you think about that.

"AI Overview

Giant Bird of Paradise plants are not resistant to Ganoderma butt rot. Ganoderma butt rot is a fungal disease that affects palms, including Giant Bird of Paradise, and can lead to wilting and decline. If a Giant Bird of Paradise plant exhibits a hard, shelf-like fungal conk, it is likely infected with Ganoderma."

 

Then I googled "Strelitzia nicolai get ganoderma" and got a completely different AI generated response!

 

"AI Overview

No, there is no indication that Strelitzia nicolai (Giant White Bird of Paradise) is susceptible to Ganoderma, a genus of shelf fungi. While Strelitzia nicolai can be affected by pests like scale insects and mealybugs, it is generally considered to be a disease-free plant. Ganoderma, which includes shelf fungi like Ganoderma lucidum, is typically associated with woody plants and decay, and there's no specific information suggesting it affects Strelitzia nicolai."

 

So, basically I have no idea what to do. 🙄

 

Do you have a specific prompt you're Googling to find your answer?

 

I googled Cycads and unfortunately I can't say I'm a huge fan of that for this spot. It needs some height here and the Giant Birds of Paradise would be a decent solution unless there's something else that can hit 15-20'ft high.

 

Also I'm not sure what to have on hand if and when the tools hit the soil for disinfection. Is it a bunch of Alcohol or Hydrogen Peroxide? Which do you think would be best (my guess is HP, but not sure).

 

[AspiringDana]

6 minutes ago, AspiringDana said:

Also I'm not sure what to have on hand if and when the tools hit the soil for disinfection. Is it a bunch of Alcohol or Hydrogen Peroxide? Which do you think would be best (my guess is HP, but not sure).

I did find this article which lists 4 different methods to disinfect in case anyone is reading here:

https://shadetreeexpert.com/disinfecting-pruning-tools/

[floridaPalmMan]

On 8/20/2021 at 4:00 PM, Merlyn said:

I had moved from Michigan and had never heard of the cursed things

Same exact story... except I moved from Wisconsin.

Bought my current property before I knew better thinking, "wow, all of these beautiful oaks and bamboo clumps surrounding my house are amazing!!!"

Now about 1/10th of my annual income goes to cutting water oaks down around my house every year and 25% of my landscaping efforts go to controlling bamboo.

Us naive, naive mid-westerners. We just had no idea what we were walking into

[Merlyn]

@AspiringDana the Ganoderma that infects palms is called "zonatum," and is just one of hundreds (maybe thousands) of different species of Ganoderma.  But it's the only one known to infect palms.  I did a Google search for "strelitzia nicolai "ganoderma"" and nothing popped up in the first couple of pages.  If there were articles linking Ganoderma (of any species) to Strelitzia it should have popped up immediately.

In this link https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/PP333 they discuss a bunch of different species.  One section is useful in particular:

"For example, species such as G. curtisii and G. meredithiae are practically identical in the field. However, the former is typically found in association with hardwood trees (especially oaks), while the latter is associated with pines. Some species are generalists and can be found in association with a diverse range of host trees, and other species are specialists. For example, G. sessile is a generalist that can be commonly found on many species, such as oaks, maples, redbuds, and other deciduous trees, whereas Ganoderma zonatum is a specialist that can only be found on palms."

So while your Foxtails might have been killed by G. zonatum, it's only a palm-killer and won't infect other plant species.  If you have other palms (or you like your neighbor's palms) it may be a good idea to have someone dig out and dispose of the dirt and stump grindings anyway.  The fungus is still present in the grindings, as it is known to invade the roots of palms. 

As far as cycads go, the only ones that would get to 15+ feet tall quickly are Encephalartos Laurentianus, Whitelockii, Ituriensis, and Kisambo.  I have all of these here, and I probably wouldn't plant one next to a walkway.  Practically every part of the plant is either thorny or spiky.  The leaves are prickly like holly and stiff-leaved so they poke you if you brush past.  I planted the Encephalartos Ituriensis and Hildebrandtii a few years ago, and then decided I needed a pathway into that corner of the yard.  In hindsight having the path 6 inches from the Ituriensis was a bad choice.   

For sanitizing tools, I use a fresh paper towel and rubbing alcohol on each pruner/lopper/etc after use.  Like in the article, I have a battery powered small reciprocating saw, and I have a big glass jar of rubbing alcohol for the blades.  After pruning a tree I wipe off the blade and drop it in the jar, then grab a different one for the next tree.  If I'm doing a bunch in one day I'll put the used blades off to the side until I'm done for the day, and then drop them all in at once.  That way I never accidentally use one blade that hasn't been sitting in there for days/weeks/months.

[AspiringDana]

23 hours ago, floridaPalmMan said:

Same exact story... except I moved from Wisconsin.

Bought my current property before I knew better thinking, "wow, all of these beautiful oaks and bamboo clumps surrounding my house are amazing!!!"

Now about 1/10th of my annual income goes to cutting water oaks down around my house every year and 25% of my landscaping efforts go to controlling bamboo.

Us naive, naive mid-westerners. We just had no idea what we were walking into

@floridaPalmMan I can relate somewhat. Thankfully I did not have that kind of experience but do understand that there is absolutely a tropical landscaping learning curve that comes along with living in Florida or the tropics I guess. While it's all fun and games learning about all the orchids and succulents and I have an extensive potted garden of things, the dealing with seasonal pest infestations was something very unexpected and truly a PITA if you have no idea what to do or what tools to use for extermination.  Yes, the funds & aggravation to trim my 25 year old oak, then learn it's pushing up the driveway and soon to be my home's foundation had to be removed, then plant the triple Foxtail clump which had to eventually be removed from the Ganoderma, means now I have about a $5K hole in my yard that I still need to sod or plant over! It can be very expensive to deal with landscaping.  I moved to FL from the Northeast and the most costly outlay was the grass clipping and trimming a few ornamentals, the rest was au natural.

 

[AspiringDana]

2 hours ago, Merlyn said:

@AspiringDana the Ganoderma that infects palms is called "zonatum," and is just one of hundreds (maybe thousands) of different species of Ganoderma.  But it's the only one known to infect palms.  I did a Google search for "strelitzia nicolai "ganoderma"" and nothing popped up in the first couple of pages.  If there were articles linking Ganoderma (of any species) to Strelitzia it should have popped up immediately.

In this link https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/PP333 they discuss a bunch of different species.  One section is useful in particular:

"For example, species such as G. curtisii and G. meredithiae are practically identical in the field. However, the former is typically found in association with hardwood trees (especially oaks), while the latter is associated with pines. Some species are generalists and can be found in association with a diverse range of host trees, and other species are specialists. For example, G. sessile is a generalist that can be commonly found on many species, such as oaks, maples, redbuds, and other deciduous trees, whereas Ganoderma zonatum is a specialist that can only be found on palms."

So while your Foxtails might have been killed by G. zonatum, it's only a palm-killer and won't infect other plant species.  If you have other palms (or you like your neighbor's palms) it may be a good idea to have someone dig out and dispose of the dirt and stump grindings anyway.  The fungus is still present in the grindings, as it is known to invade the roots of palms. 

As far as cycads go, the only ones that would get to 15+ feet tall quickly are Encephalartos Laurentianus, Whitelockii, Ituriensis, and Kisambo.  I have all of these here, and I probably wouldn't plant one next to a walkway.  Practically every part of the plant is either thorny or spiky.  The leaves are prickly like holly and stiff-leaved so they poke you if you brush past.  I planted the Encephalartos Ituriensis and Hildebrandtii a few years ago, and then decided I needed a pathway into that corner of the yard.  In hindsight having the path 6 inches from the Ituriensis was a bad choice.   

For sanitizing tools, I use a fresh paper towel and rubbing alcohol on each pruner/lopper/etc after use.  Like in the article, I have a battery powered small reciprocating saw, and I have a big glass jar of rubbing alcohol for the blades.  After pruning a tree I wipe off the blade and drop it in the jar, then grab a different one for the next tree.  If I'm doing a bunch in one day I'll put the used blades off to the side until I'm done for the day, and then drop them all in at once.  That way I never accidentally use one blade that hasn't been sitting in there for days/weeks/months.

@Merlyn Thank you so much again for this discussion!! 🙏 It's very helpful and I am feeling a bit more hopeful for putting some Giant Birds of Paradise in the dreaded Ganoderma hell spot in the yard.  I will ask the gardener to dig up the latest pressed stump area and disinfect the tools with him and I think I may actually have this kind of Bird of Paradise on my Lanai, although I will probably end up buying a new and fresh plant just to give it the best fighting chance.

I see what you're saying about the Cycads! Planning and planning for the future with these landscapes seems very important as I am learning.

Thank you so much for your detailed description of how you sanitize your tools! 🙏 Rubbing alcohol it is! Will do as best as I can with my gardener there and also for my own use. I currently have 2 triple clumped Roebelleni within a 5' and 20' area of the Foxtails that were Ganoderma infected, so I will do my best to make sure only to use my sterile tools on them.  Of course I ultimately have zero control over this because these fall within the scope of the HOA's landscapers who never disinfect. 😢  I just sent an email to our Landscape Committee and PM about that and requiring it in future contracts in at least some capacity. I doubt it exists now.

I also noticed that the arborist I used was completely unfazed that his stump grinder had a lot of stump debris still on it and didn't seem to care or be bothered, which was very concerning to me. I purposely chose an Arborist who doesn't really do work in our community and I'm glad I did based on what I witnessed. I'm fairly sure the remains of the tree were ground/chipped right into the same bin as all the other debris he had that will likely go to the recycler rather than the furnace portion of the dump, but I have zero control over any of that whatsoever. 😢

 

[floridaPalmMan]

1 hour ago, AspiringDana said:

there is absolutely a tropical landscaping learning curve that comes along with living in Florida or the tropics I guess.

Absolutely. It's very different than the northern temperate forests. A lot more diseases too.

But good luck with filling that spot. Hopefully it doesn't burn too big a hole in your wallet this year!

[Merlyn]

@AspiringDana it probably doesn't make a difference if your gardener digs out the grinding debris with a sanitized shovel or not.  But it might make a difference if they prune off fronds with a clean loppers, or if they just used the loppers on a palm down the street.  It's one of those impossible-to-know kind of things.  Maybe it's a 1% chance, maybe a 50% chance...dunno.

The local waste disposal company offers "free mulch" at a transfer station, it's cheaper for them to give it away than to transport it to the dump.  This has been nicknamed "jungle mulch" because it's made of just random parts of the Floriduh jungle.  I avoid that stuff like the plague, because I guarantee the Ganoderma-infested trunks got ground up into the "free mulch."  So there's no such thing as a free lunch...or free mulch... 

[AspiringDana]

4 hours ago, Merlyn said:

@AspiringDana it probably doesn't make a difference if your gardener digs out the grinding debris with a sanitized shovel or not.  But it might make a difference if they prune off fronds with a clean loppers, or if they just used the loppers on a palm down the street.  It's one of those impossible-to-know kind of things.  Maybe it's a 1% chance, maybe a 50% chance...dunno.

The local waste disposal company offers "free mulch" at a transfer station, it's cheaper for them to give it away than to transport it to the dump.  This has been nicknamed "jungle mulch" because it's made of just random parts of the Floriduh jungle.  I avoid that stuff like the plague, because I guarantee the Ganoderma-infested trunks got ground up into the "free mulch."  So there's no such thing as a free lunch...or free mulch... 

@Merlyn I agree it won't make much difference if he digs with a sterile shovel in that Ganoderma infested stump waste area. What I meant was that I will insist he sterilizes his shovel(s) after doing the digging! I do not want him transferring anything like this to any other homeowner or customer.

Unfortunately because my other front yard palms that I have (6 Roebelleni and 2 Sabal) are trimmed by the HOA contractors, I'm certain their tools are not sterile and they transfer everything from one home to the next here. The only control I have in this situation is what I feed the trees to keep them healthier and given a fighting chance and between me likely over fertilizing and the severe drought and or lack of proper Irrigation due to pump problems they've just been really struggling. I see the Roebelleni now have mealy bug which I've asked for a topical drench and I put down a systemic. Fingers crossed the Ganoderma doesn't spread, especially to the closest Roebelleni which was just a few feet away.

My guess is the original Ganoderma came years ago with the stump grinder for the Oak that was in this spot originally. This contractor also brought me the Foxtails and while stump grinding hid the fact that he crushed the irrigation pipes, then covered his error so I didn't find it until a day or so later when he was long gone with my cash. If I don't see Ganoderma spread to the other palms I think I would just assume this was the original cause. Either way, what's done is done. 😢

I agree that the free "jungle mulch" sounds like a very bad idea and I wonder who is actually using this when they must know the harm it could cause.

Our county also provides free compost too and I wonder if that's something that should also be avoided. 🤔