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tlow

How long before cold hardy palms start growing post storm?

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tlow

So we have some larger 15G+ Windmills, Texas Sabals, and Mexican Fan Palms around our pool area and they all have a varying degree of green post the storm.  The Windmills have nice green tight spears, and the sabal is actively pushing a tiny spear from its center.  They all got copper now twice since the thaw happened (mild copper) just in the event we had some fungi issues.  In general, with the weather looking nice how quickly should we start seeing visible growth?  I marked the new spears so I can track progress but nothing noticeable quite yet.  Located in the DFW area.

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PalmatierMeg

Be patient. If your palms have survived they make take months to start growing again. I had a coconut damaged by cold in Dec. 2010. It didn't start growing again until the following June. Your palms may have gone into shock and are expending what energy they have left on survival. Nothing may happen until spring arrives for good and Arctic fronts recede north. As long as your palms don't collapse completely you have hope.

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Will Simpson

If it is only petiole and frond damage you should start seeing growth in a week or a little  more with mild weather . But don't cut anything  down until August . I once heard a saying by Gary Hollar about cold damage  ;  I think it was he  ,  that says , you don't know if a palm is alive until May , but you don't know if it is dead until  August . 

Good luck .

Will

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tlow

Thanks guys... The windmills have varying degrees of burnt leaves, but all have some green on them.. some of them even have full leaves that are green so I am optimistic they will be OK.  I have noticed the spear that was pushing out of the heart the most and exposed to the cold is deformed and looks bizarre, but the one or two tiny ones coming from the heart I can see, are tight, and green so I am optimistic we'll make it through this.  What will happen to that deformed spear?  In general what should I do with it?

Believe it or not I had five mexican fan palms I didn't cover, and while the leaves were burnt, and got pruned completely, they all have one spear pushing from the heart (left from the storm damage) but all of these spears have a varying degree or forest dark green.  No spear pull and I think, if I'm patient these may even make it.  If they do, it'll be a miracle but I'm just watching and waiting at this point.  I would've expected these to be toast by now.

I have three Texas Sabals, all VERY young, two that have just two fronds out of the ground, absolutely zero trunk that are holding up, and one that had a beautiful big spear coming out starting to open up pre-storm, now has a brand new tiny spear coming right behind that one.  It's like the storm woke this Texas Sabal up and got it moving.  Again, these are really hardy and none of these were covered.

We have had plenty of sun and warmth the last few days and the leaves started looking crispy and dry so I gave everyone a nice watering yesterday (6G a piece for the big ones) and will resume the couple times a week watering hoping we can get some growth moving again.. I've marked them all, now it's just patience, and waiting.  I'm optimistic we will pull through this...

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tlow

Just wanted to ask, but is it helpful to give them all some palm nutrional spray to help them perk up a bit?  I have read all over the place it does wonders.

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Jimhardy

Its good that they are growing, a stuck spear after cold is an invitation to fungal attack....

palms spears basically need to outgrow the damage before it descends down the crown shaft.

 marking the spear & petioles nearby - with a permanent marker can give a good idea of how fast its growing if you can reach.

If a spear is bound up/not moving or starts dying(along with newest leafs near by) you can always operate, cutting down across the spear

can open up the crown to light and air and also removes infected tissue that may spread quickly to weak tissue nearby.

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oasis371

Better question, would be when they begin to show their DAMAGE from cold.  This is often delayed into the transition into warm weather.

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PricklyPearSATC

 

2 hours ago, Jimhardy said:

Its good that they are growing, a stuck spear after cold is an invitation to fungal attack....

palms spears basically need to outgrow the damage before it descends down the crown shaft.

 marking the spear & petioles nearby - with a permanent marker can give a good idea of how fast its growing if you can reach.

If a spear is bound up/not moving or starts dying(along with newest leafs near by) you can always operate, cutting down across the spear

can open up the crown to light and air and also removes infected tissue that may spread quickly to weak tissue nearby.

I saw a few "surgery" videos on You Tube..lol..

I have not seen any survivors.

The spear on my livinstona chinesis seems stuck. 

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NBTX11
5 minutes ago, PricklyPearSATC said:

 

I saw a few "surgery" videos on You Tube..lol..

I have not seen any survivors.

The spear on my livinstona chinesis seems stuck. 

I've performed surgery before and it worked.

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NBTX11
13 hours ago, tlow said:

Thanks guys... The windmills have varying degrees of burnt leaves, but all have some green on them.. some of them even have full leaves that are green so I am optimistic they will be OK.  I have noticed the spear that was pushing out of the heart the most and exposed to the cold is deformed and looks bizarre, but the one or two tiny ones coming from the heart I can see, are tight, and green so I am optimistic we'll make it through this.  What will happen to that deformed spear?  In general what should I do with it?

Believe it or not I had five mexican fan palms I didn't cover, and while the leaves were burnt, and got pruned completely, they all have one spear pushing from the heart (left from the storm damage) but all of these spears have a varying degree or forest dark green.  No spear pull and I think, if I'm patient these may even make it.  If they do, it'll be a miracle but I'm just watching and waiting at this point.  I would've expected these to be toast by now.

I have three Texas Sabals, all VERY young, two that have just two fronds out of the ground, absolutely zero trunk that are holding up, and one that had a beautiful big spear coming out starting to open up pre-storm, now has a brand new tiny spear coming right behind that one.  It's like the storm woke this Texas Sabal up and got it moving.  Again, these are really hardy and none of these were covered.

We have had plenty of sun and warmth the last few days and the leaves started looking crispy and dry so I gave everyone a nice watering yesterday (6G a piece for the big ones) and will resume the couple times a week watering hoping we can get some growth moving again.. I've marked them all, now it's just patience, and waiting.  I'm optimistic we will pull through this...

Perfectly natural to get deformed fronds after a freeze.  Don't worry about it.  But each additional one should be more and more healthy.  A lot of times when your spear pulls, you are only pulling the top half of the spear.  The bottom half is still inside the palm.  If the center spear is moving, it has a good chance.  The Sabals and windmills have a fighting chance.  I personally would be surprised to see any Mexican fan palms survive in your area, but hopefully, I am wrong.  Would love to see some recover.    

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Jimhardy

Watch the leaves next to the spear, if they start to close it means they have been cut off from

the rest of the palm, surgery will be required....living in Iowa and growing palms means you get

to see every type of spear pull:rant: the worst in my experience is what I call core/socket pull...you pull

the first 2 spears or so and the whole socket comes out with four or more leaf petioles-brutal.....leaves a disgusting hole

in the heart of your palm-its basically what you see in the big leagues down south when the crown collapses...

 

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PricklyPearSATC
1 hour ago, Jimhardy said:

Watch the leaves next to the spear, if they start to close it means they have been cut off from

the rest of the palm, surgery will be required....living in Iowa and growing palms means you get

to see every type of spear pull:rant: the worst in my experience is what I call core/socket pull...you pull

the first 2 spears or so and the whole socket comes out with four or more leaf petioles-brutal.....leaves a disgusting hole

in the heart of your palm-its basically what you see in the big leagues down south when the crown collapses...

 

I just went outside moved some fronds on my livistona.  One was bent over the crown.  (I had placed it that way thinking it would provide warmth.  The frond is basically dead, the petiole still has green.  The frond closest to the spear is worrisome. It didn't pull out, but it was weird.  It has not grown since the polar vortex.   The spear on this livistona was growing for a few days after the the cold, then it stopped.  Spear is actually green on one side and brown on the other side of the palm. 

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tlow
15 hours ago, NBTX11 said:

Perfectly natural to get deformed fronds after a freeze.  Don't worry about it.  But each additional one should be more and more healthy.  A lot of times when your spear pulls, you are only pulling the top half of the spear.  The bottom half is still inside the palm.  If the center spear is moving, it has a good chance.  The Sabals and windmills have a fighting chance.  I personally would be surprised to see any Mexican fan palms survive in your area, but hopefully, I am wrong.  Would love to see some recover.    

Thanks.. Yea the largest spears coming from the heart look deformed, lost color, etc, but the ones that were covered on all sides by those spears sticking out, are tight, green, and looking just normal on all of the windmills.  I have marked them the other day and haven't had much movement just yet, but it's still quite early.  They took a battering no doubt, so I'm just being patient.  They're pretty decent sized palms, probably 5' tall or more, lower fronds are brown'er, some of the taller ones are even close to being all green, some burned out, but the spears coming out look good... patience - I'm not very good at it !

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NBTX11

Patience, patience, patience. If you’re not seeing movement by late spring to summer, then start worrying. 

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tlow
29 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

Patience, patience, patience. If you’re not seeing movement by late spring to summer, then start worrying. 

oh good.. I was hoping patience didn't mean a week or two.. I know they got battered so a few weeks is fine.

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tlow

Well throughout the course of my normal inspection, the windmill that looked the worst (very little green on the fronds) versus the others who have half a frond or all green still.... spear pull.  I pulled very gently (i do daily) and a couple of the fronds that were already in there pulled, I pulled the spear gently and it came out.  I gave it some 50\50 peroxide treatment and will continue to wait and see... Hoping it bounces back.  The rest, I tugged gently and no spear pull at all.  This is the one I was worried about the most because it looked the worst... ugh!

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NBTX11
2 hours ago, tlow said:

Well throughout the course of my normal inspection, the windmill that looked the worst (very little green on the fronds) versus the others who have half a frond or all green still.... spear pull.  I pulled very gently (i do daily) and a couple of the fronds that were already in there pulled, I pulled the spear gently and it came out.  I gave it some 50\50 peroxide treatment and will continue to wait and see... Hoping it bounces back.  The rest, I tugged gently and no spear pull at all.  This is the one I was worried about the most because it looked the worst... ugh!

Don't listen to people that tell you palms can't come back from spear pull.  They can.  I get tired of watching youtube videos from so called palm experts opining away about cold damage on palms stating that if you have spear pull that means your palm is always dead.  It doesn't.

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GregVirginia7
2 hours ago, NBTX11 said:

Don't listen to people that tell you palms can't come back from spear pull.  They can.  I get tired of watching youtube videos from so called palm experts opining away about cold damage on palms stating that if you have spear pull that means your palm is always dead.  It doesn't.

Nope...you are so right. Ordered a Brazoria from Chilly Palms in NC in 2015 and within the year had frond loss and spear pull (all my fault) put some peroxide and copper fungicide in the hole...gave it 3-months and I thought it was dead as there was no activity...was about to saw off the “trunk” and I noticed a spear coming through! 2021 and it’s still here...

DEFE3F7F-650E-4292-B5BD-F740A11A9349.thumb.jpeg.84d0b19f8bf4b6b57ee5b654bee77a8d.jpegI think it’s ready for a normal winter so we’ll see how it does but I’ll be ready to protect at a moment’s vortex.

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PricklyPearSATC
3 hours ago, NBTX11 said:

Don't listen to people that tell you palms can't come back from spear pull.  They can.  I get tired of watching youtube videos from so called palm experts opining away about cold damage on palms stating that if you have spear pull that means your palm is always dead.  It doesn't.

Med fan palms are notorious for this!  I think this happened to me after cold in 2010 and 2011.  Spears just pulled.  Barely any damage to the palm, but spears pulled. 

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tlow

I'll continue to provide as much as I can, but it'll be up to the palm at this point.  I just did copper last weekend, now wondering if I should do another round today.  I do believe and have seen these take much worse and recover.

Just looking at pictures of chillypalms for reference, and our windmills have got to be 30# so these are big boys and should be able to handle this.   For reference this is how a few of them looked on the 25th.  I'll take some today for progress, and will continue to document them along the way.  I just walked out and looked down the top of the windmill with the spearpull yesterday and I just see nothing, just straight down, nothing.  It's pretty tall at probably 4.5'-5' so I'm sure it's heart is way down there.  Here's hoping it makes a recovery with the weather getting much nicer now.

 

You can see the Texas Sabal I have, it started pushing that big brand new spear out, then the damn cold weather event came... Good news is, I think it will make it as there is a small spear that I marked right between this current one, and an established frond....

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Hombre de Palmas
On 3/4/2021 at 1:13 PM, tlow said:

Just wanted to ask, but is it helpful to give them all some palm nutrional spray to help them perk up a bit?  I have read all over the place it does wonders.

I use the Southern Ag Palm Nutritional Spray usually mixed with a product called Superthrive. I spray it on the foliage and also into the crowns. You might also apply it as a drench, read the instructions and decide what you feel is best for your situation.

I have also used Miracle-GroTomato Food as it has an appropriate formula for palms and also contains the minor elements.

I feel my palms (and other landscape plants) have benefited from these treatments when they have been stressed.

 

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tlow
3 minutes ago, Hombre de Palmas said:

I use the Southern Ag Palm Nutritional Spray usually mixed with a product called Superthrive. I spray it on the foliage and also into the crowns. You might also apply it as a drench, read the instructions and decide what you feel is best for your situation.

I have also used Miracle-GroTomato Food as it has an appropriate formula for palms and also contains the minor elements.

I feel my palms (and other landscape plants) have benefited from these treatments when they have been stressed.

 

Thanks!  I did put some nutritional spray on the fronds, and some down the crowns this week to get them kick started... What I've done thus far is each palm (proportionate to its size) gets Jobe's palm spikes for in ground, nutritional spray and copper for this freeze (twice a week apart).  I may add superthrive into my regiment, thanks!  How often do you fertilize with this mixture?

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Hombre de Palmas

When they are stressed, I might do it every 10 days until you see improvement. The benefit of spraying is that you get the nutrition to the palm immediately.

Once the danger of cold is past, you can use the Miracle Gro Tomato food instead as it adds NPK to the mix. I try not to induce growth too early in the season.

As far as the spikes, you might want to read up on that. Some folks are hesitant to use them. I never have used spikes, and I'm not sure about the reasons for any concerns about that method of fertilization.

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tlow

Here are some more updated pictures....   

I'm going to use this as a recovery thread to see what happens and compare in a few months, so feel free to follow along all, appreciate any advice.

Texas Sabal - This was my best looking of the bunch and the frond you see on the left, that one just literally opened up a few days before the storm.  Hard to tell because it's so bright but it has green toward the bottom toward the base.  I'm very optimistic on this one.

IMG_20210307_110722.thumb.JPG.22499dbf7279b7d2a44b74a8cfe2bc97.JPG

IMG_20210307_110722.thumb.JPG.22499dbf7279b7d2a44b74a8cfe2bc97.JPG

IMG_20210307_110738.thumb.JPG.ffdc972697e8ebc948c2987d0c1e9952.JPG

Hard to see but there is a tin new frond I marked to track progress.. This emerged POST the storm which is very interesting.

Two other tiny Texas Sabals that have been like this since planting in October.. hoping since most of it is underground they'll emerge a new here shortly.  I just trimmed down the petioles to just keep the green.  These are very young and we'll see what happens.

IMG_20210307_110757.thumb.JPG.b657fa77eff054c6c3ce4a687177a4ad.JPG

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Windmills... These are older but went into the ground in October.  Hoping because of the size, the decent amount of green on many fronds they may still make it.

IMG_20210307_110820.thumb.JPG.dfa3dff43e742d92f6f9776b15b04588.JPG

IMG_20210307_110832.thumb.JPG.1be1ba0d4c7531a95b19298490299c94.JPG

IMG_20210307_110935.thumb.JPG.223ab1d514a4a0a9b3a67cc46685a4e2.JPG

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This is the one I knew I'd have a problem with.. very little green on the fronds, but petioles still green, and had the spear pull yesterday.  I did a 50:50 water and peroxide.  Seems sturdy and hoping we can get some progress in due time.  Patience on this one.

IMG_20210307_110843.thumb.JPG.089ab5e4c44a041cb35fd16cc2e3bdf5.JPG

IMG_20210307_110854.thumb.JPG.19472dc43e61553969323974de5d5824.JPG

Realize my camera removes any green, but they are much greener than these pictures appear.. ugh!  Thanks all, let's hope these all pull through.

 

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Jimhardy

Keep gently tugging on the newest spear(gently/every day) if another pulls you may want to cut down on the trunk....

just a few inches at first and check out the condition/color of the center until you find live tissue.....I would also

suggest cutting it at an angle so the face points south, the light and angle will keep it dry and inhibit fungal

growth.....not to mention the sun being a good thing:rolleyes:

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tlow
16 hours ago, Jimhardy said:

Keep gently tugging on the newest spear(gently/every day) if another pulls you may want to cut down on the trunk....

just a few inches at first and check out the condition/color of the center until you find live tissue.....I would also

suggest cutting it at an angle so the face points south, the light and angle will keep it dry and inhibit fungal

growth.....not to mention the sun being a good thing:rolleyes:

Thank you.. nothing new today, no spear pulls or anything.  I'll continue doing that daily.  I did do some peroxide into the hole of the spear pull'ed windmill this morning.  We're getting some rain this week so I'm assuming i'll need to make a little covering over the hole for the couple days it rains so it doesn't just trap water in there.  Our palms get a beautiful south exposure so they get a nice strong full TX sun almost all day.

I did pick up some superthrive and mixed that yesterday with miracle gro, and palm nutritional spray to give them all a shot in the arm.  Couple days of sun, then rain this week to hopefully keep these guys all happy.  I'm anxiously waiting to see even just one of these push these spears just even a little.  Patience..

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GregVirginia7
6 minutes ago, tlow said:

Thank you.. nothing new today, no spear pulls or anything.  I'll continue doing that daily.  I did do some peroxide into the hole of the spear pull'ed windmill this morning.  We're getting some rain this week so I'm assuming i'll need to make a little covering over the hole for the couple days it rains so it doesn't just trap water in there.  Our palms get a beautiful south exposure so they get a nice strong full TX sun almost all day.

I did pick up some superthrive and mixed that yesterday with miracle gro, and palm nutritional spray to give them all a shot in the arm.  Couple days of sun, then rain this week to hopefully keep these guys all happy.  I'm anxiously waiting to see even just one of these push these spears just even a little.  Patience..

Get a garden shepherds hook  (if the palm is not too tall) nudge the inside of the umbrella up against the curved arm of the shepherd's hook and wire the umbrella tightly to it. Position that low and over the crown...tried that this winter and it worked well...even with wind...

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tlow
20 minutes ago, GregVirginia7 said:

Get a garden shepherds hook  (if the palm is not too tall) nudge the inside of the umbrella up against the curved arm of the shepherd's hook and wire the umbrella tightly to it. Position that low and over the crown...tried that this winter and it worked well...even with wind...

Thanks.. I'm going to figure out an easy way to do this before we get some rain later this week.  Here's hoping we get some growth and movement on these spears this week.

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tlow

Well hell.... went and gently tugged again and pulled up another frond with a good amount of internal fleshy material.  None of my other ones are having the same issues, just this one that I had some pretty hard feelings about post storm.. it looked rough.

IMG_20210308_175313.thumb.JPG.b028b8f871a9dccc4713f9083a55e544.JPG

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GregVirginia7
8 hours ago, tlow said:

Thanks.. I'm going to figure out an easy way to do this before we get some rain later this week.  Here's hoping we get some growth and movement on these spears this week.

I used this method to keep my Chamaerops dryer this winter...it was also a good way to support its frost cloth protection...wondered how the wind would treat it but seems pretty protected from steady wind...

B536D1C8-71D8-48F8-BB2C-D0C2BCE8B90C.thumb.jpeg.5d48d80c5dd124642c37eb9b54f8e27e.jpegThe Brazoria got the same treatment but I used a cylindrical growing cage that I opened up and clamped an umbrella to the top rim...it was really sturdy...

9A109EA9-85CC-4632-A7AF-926DFDD671D1.thumb.jpeg.6020d0a1c1007a3ed670791c2e7fe472.jpeg

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Chester B
42 minutes ago, GregVirginia7 said:

I used this method to keep my Chamaerops dryer this winter.

Are you sure you need to do this?  Our rain falls predominantly in winter and both species you have protected are fine with the cold and wet.  Chamaerops have a long record of decades in the wet winters of the PNW with no protection.

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PricklyPearSATC
2 hours ago, tlow said:

Well hell.... went and gently tugged again and pulled up another frond with a good amount of internal fleshy material.  None of my other ones are having the same issues, just this one that I had some pretty hard feelings about post storm.. it looked rough.

IMG_20210308_175313.thumb.JPG.b028b8f871a9dccc4713f9083a55e544.JPG

Eww!!

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tlow
9 hours ago, PricklyPearSATC said:

Eww!!

tell me about it.. I took a ruler and measured about 11" down into the trunk before i hit solid material, it's just a nice big gaping hole.  The fronds that line the trunk are holding on nice and strong.  Wondering if I should leave it alone, or surgery today?  I've never done it before and don't know if this one needs it or not.

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GregVirginia7
10 hours ago, Chester B said:

Are you sure you need to do this?  Our rain falls predominantly in winter and both species you have protected are fine with the cold and wet.  Chamaerops have a long record of decades in the wet winters of the PNW with no protection.

Agreed...I’m too protective, especially with the last three mild winters we’ve had...going to loosen up on this next winter barring any arctic lows.

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tlow
1 hour ago, tlow said:

tell me about it.. I took a ruler and measured about 11" down into the trunk before i hit solid material, it's just a nice big gaping hole.  The fronds that line the trunk are holding on nice and strong.  Wondering if I should leave it alone, or surgery today?  I've never done it before and don't know if this one needs it or not.

So some good news this morning...  This is still the only sad looking one of the bunch.  I walked around where I marked the smallest spear coming out of the trunk and one is visibly higher, probably .25", but visibly higher!  I was delighted to see movement.  The other three Windmills they are marked, the spear hasn't gone above my mark, but they were super tight spears, now are beginning to expand horizontally if that makes any sense, so I do believe it's doing something.

 

The Texas Sabal hasn't moved past my mark yet but the petioles remain green and I am optimistic it'll start moving here soon.  Some good news overall in the midst of this one rough looking windmill.

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Jimhardy

Its not going to hurt the palm to cut...follow your instinct...

If you do cut, make sure to stabilize the trunk, they can take a beating because 

these have so much fiber they are tough to cut through.....in that palms case you are not removing

live tissue and causing any damage that will set it back- a deep pocket like that can be an issue.

Listen to the palm, trust your instincts - if you cut you will see if there is live tissue or not, if no

cut another inch or two but remember that the bud only goes so far down....you will know when you

hit live tissue(creamy white puzzle pattern) and depending on the temps I have seen palms start pushing in hours, or days...just

depends on the palm.   I wish I could show you all my pics going through his but thanks to Photobucket

raising their monthly fee from $2.99 to $40.00 a month....they will remain hostages.

 

good luck!

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tlow
16 minutes ago, Jimhardy said:

Its not going to hurt the palm to cut...follow your instinct...

If you do cut, make sure to stabilize the trunk, they can take a beating because 

these have so much fiber they are tough to cut through.....in that palms case you are not removing

live tissue and causing any damage that will set it back- a deep pocket like that can be an issue.

Listen to the palm, trust your instincts - if you cut you will see if there is live tissue or not, if no

cut another inch or two but remember that the bud only goes so far down....you will know when you

hit live tissue(creamy white puzzle pattern) and depending on the temps I have seen palms start pushing in hours, or days...just

depends on the palm.   I wish I could show you all my pics going through his but thanks to Photobucket

raising their monthly fee from $2.99 to $40.00 a month....they will remain hostages.

 

good luck!

I am very new to palms so really I don't have much instincts in this department..  I know people cut these with no issues but really I have zero experience with the process.  If I leave it should I see some growth way down there pretty quickly?  I vacuumed it out with a shopvac hose yesterday and cleaned the inside of the cavity out.. I'd hate to cut the trunk it's 11-12" of nice fibrous trunk... ugh!!!

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Ben OK

Like Jim said above, I tend to mark spears and then watch and wait. I have one waggy that is already growing and another that is not. I don't expect any growth out of my sabals until the soil warms up more.

20210307_143817~2.jpg

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PalmatierMeg

@tlow, a tip for your surviving palms when growing season gets underway: Clear away all the turf and weeds in a 3' diameter circle around each palm and mulch (don't pile up mulch against the trunks). Fast-growing grass and weeds will suck up nutrients that the palm needs for its recovery.

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tlow
Just now, PalmatierMeg said:

@tlow, a tip for your surviving palms when growing season gets underway: Clear away all the turf and weeds in a 3' diameter circle around each palm and mulch (don't pile up mulch against the trunks). Fast-growing grass and weeds will suck up nutrients that the palm needs for its recovery.

Thank you!  I'm just hanging out to start seeing some more marked growth to start and I'll do that for sure.  I don't smell ANY rotting anything in this one windmill that had the spear pulls so I'm hopeful it might be able to make a recovery without surgery.... hoping..

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