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LJG

When you pull a spear out

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LJG

Once of my favorite palms had its main stem's spear stop growing. It started browning and after a few weeks I figured I would test it. This morning I pulled it out. Most the ones I have pulled from other palms were due to the freeze. This was planted in April and was protected from the freeze. But the planting and sun burn put it into shock.

So I think I know the answer that the stem will probably die. But I figured I would ask some long time growers if they have seen better success then I would guess at recovery. It has been hit with fungicide weeks earlier when I noticed the slowing. I hit it again today with Subdue. Any positive words of encouragement?

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www.dadluvsu.com

Not that I have any long term growing experience...  But last summer, I pulled a spear from an Areca vestiaria red leaf form...  and nurtured it with some peroxide in the hole, a bit or miracle grow in the soil, and plenty of warm temperatures and shade...  About 3 months ago I got a new spear to emerge and keep growing...  Plants continue to amaze, leave them be and they find a way to live!  :)

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paulgila

yes,occasionally a palm with a spear that has pulled will

manage to avoid the grim reapers icy grip(getting overly

literary--just bored,i guess :D ).

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DoomsDave

Len, to answer your question:

No.

More often than not, I've had palms come back from the spear pulling -- if they're otherwise healthy.  When the spear pulls out after all of the other leaves have already died, it's coitans, Mugsy, nyah, shee?

dave

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Dypsisdean

Len,

The answer to your question depends on a lot of things including what kind of palm is it and of what size, and what did the pulled spear look like. In other words, how far down did it appear the rot was.

However, to simplify the answer.......many palms will come back. You have the time of year in your favor. The one thing to pay attention to is the cavity left by the pulled spear, as it is a perfect place for water to collect. I don't have to tell you this is not good. So do what you can to keep water out of there. A grower I respect swears by pouring hydrogen peroxide in the cavity, because it will "neutralize" any rotting organic material, kill any bugs or pathogens, and will have a drying effect.

I'll hold off on the hearse this time.  :)

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DoomsDave

Daconil solution and/or copper fungicide will also work.

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Dypsisdean

Dave,

The reason hydrogen peroxide is so good is that it will evaporate and take any moisture along with it, while the other liquids will sit in there for a long time. Swimmers and surfers are aware of the drying properites of hydrogen peroxide drops in your ears. Same with a palm cavity, it is hard to get it to dry out down in there.

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LJG

Thanks everyone. I guess there is hope. I will pour hydrogen peroxide down the hole.

Dean, it was that large Dypsis 'Albo' I showed you. The main stem was 6 feet high, so no chance of water getting into it.

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paulgila

let us know how it goes.

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Dypsisdean

(LJG @ Jul. 02 2007,11:54)

QUOTE
Thanks everyone. I guess there is hope. I will pour hydrogen peroxide down the hole.

Dean, it was that large Dypsis 'Albo' I showed you. The main stem was 6 feet high, so no chance of water getting into it.

Len,

I think you misunderstood.

I was trying to explain, by not going into a lot of detail, that if you examaine the pulled spear, you can get an idea of how far down inside the rot extended. Of course, the deeper it goes down inside, the worse it is.

And the deeper the cavity the more moisture will collect in there, and the more difficult it will be for it to dry. It is not just moisture from sprinklers that I was talking about. As you know, when a plant is injured, it will "weep" it's own juices. And during a foggy/dewy night, the crown with a hole in the center makes a perfect funnel channeling little drops of moisture into the cavity. Both recipes for more rot.

BTW --- I would definitely give that palm the patience required. It's a good candidate for recovery, and one of my favs as well.

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fiji jim

We have this problem here in the tropics at times.

What percentage of H2O2 should be used?

I have some 35% but this may be too strong.

I also once investigated using it to kill mold, moss, green slime etc that is a problem on our propagation trays during wet season.

I found that some were using this but searches led me to a site for indoor growing of that plant that we don't talk about openly. Quiet a different thing.

I need to get the right formulae to try for shadehouse use. Strong enough to kill the unwanteds but not the

baby seedlings.

Who knows ?

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madagascarbob

50/50

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osideterry

Len, if it's any consolation I think I lost 2 this week.

1) Rhopalostylis sapida. Looked fine when I went on vacation. Came back to find the youngest leaf totally brown. It was so tough to cut I gave it a pull and the whole she-bang came out leaving an empty collar. The bottom-most part of the leaf was cylindical and stank really bad. I poured Daconil down the throat. This is the one I got from South Coast Palms. Still has 2 "decent" leaves, but no new spear in 4 months. I had to plant it at a 45 degree angle to get a vertical trunk, and I may have left a void. That or latent winter damage.

2) Chamadorea tepijilote. I decided to peel the winter collection of papery leafbases off. Discovered the crownshaft-like area consumed with soft-rotted holes. Still has a leaf, but it's worthless with such a damaged trunk.

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LJG

(madagascarbob @ Jul. 02 2007,15:51)

QUOTE
50/50

OK, so of course I can do nothing right the first time with palms. So I found some Savon brand H2O2. Poured it straight into the hole. Then the fun started. it came bubbling out and oozing for about 5 minutes. At that stage I tought i should have asked if I needed to dilute it. Came back here to ask and read so.

Dean, as Terry pointed out, almost every spear I have pulled on other plants was way down to the heart and stunk really bad. This one was not so much 'meat' and did not stink. Of course I will leave it as it still has many other stems growing fast after getting fried from the sun. I have tried everything to kill this plant. What else can I try?  :;):

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Dypsisdean

Len,

Now I'm no expert on the H2O2 treatment, but whenever I did it, it also bubbled and oozed. I think that is what it is supposed to do. When you put it on a cut, or in our ear, it reacts with the "bad" stuff, but leaves the intact tissue alone. So I think the bubbling is just going after the "crap" down in there. Try pouring it on a good leaf or stem and I think it just leaves it alone.

How about some pics? This could be educational. I'm all for experimentation..................on other people's palms.  :)

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surgeon83

I pulled spears out of 9 of my palms in early January, and only 1 died.  On some of the palms, I pulled out TWO spears and they still came back.  Some of the empty holes had stinky water sitting in them all winter with average HIGHS in the 50s and I used no chemicals whatsoever.  These palms were damaged primarily with heat.

Like Dave said, if the palm looks OK otherwise, there is a chance.  If there is no obvious reason for the pulled spear (such as cold or burning) and/or if the rest of the palm has been declining for a while, the prognosis is poor.

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DoomsDave

Terry:

Rhopies sometimes rot for no reason that I can see.  I had a big one in the ground on the threshold of trunking do that, and the stench was hideous, like rotten potatoes, which pushes the barf-button in the back of my throat.  Urk!

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Dypsisdean

Brian,

I think it is important to mention which species you had the most luck with. I'm guessing it was probably the tougher ones. And I'm guessing damage caused by heat is a different type than damage from rot and/or fungus.

It would be good to let us know, if you can remember.

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freekypalmguy

I pulled the spear on one of my bismarkias and it sat there and did nothing for months. I was ready to give in and took the sawzall to it. As soon as I cut it off low, I immediately realized it was still alive. The funny thing is within an hour the new growth had started to push out, almost like I had release some pressure. It pushed the first spear and it opened up prematurely. but is now pushing spear two.

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osideterry

Dave: Sorry you lost a big one. My sapida is just a 5-gallon. Better to cark now than when I have a lot of time invested in it. I actually found it's stench to be interestingly strange. Rotten pototoes is close, but with more "bite" and "tang". The Pacaya I already hauled to the curb. This year has left me emotionally spent regarding palms. It's like nothing surprises me, and I barely even care when they die.

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freekypalmguy

Here is a pic. I probably cut her too low.

post-716-1183477427_thumb.jpg

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SubTropicRay

With plants larger than seedlings, I've had a 50/50 success rate.  I would say that fungicide applied early enough will prevent most fatalities.

Ray

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DoomsDave

(Dypsisdean @ Jul. 02 2007,16:38)

QUOTE
Dave,

The reason hydrogen peroxide is so good is that it will evaporate and take any moisture along with it, while the other liquids will sit in there for a long time. Swimmers and surfers are aware of the drying properites of hydrogen peroxide drops in your ears. Same with a palm cavity, it is hard to get it to dry out down in there.

Everything you say is true, but moisture "down there" is inevitable.  Dew forms and runs down there.

I've found it better to face that fact and fight the fungus, which the plant normally does anyway.

dave

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tropicalb

Dave...

Lost about 190 5 gal kings this last freeze....pulled spears like a mutha over the last few months...did the hydrogen peroxide thing, and have not yet seen a single plant come back (keeping in mind of course that these poor plants endured below freezing temps in the teens for more than five consecutive days)....

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DoomsDave

(tropicalb @ Jul. 03 2007,13:10)

QUOTE
Dave...

Lost about 190 5 gal kings this last freeze....pulled spears like a mutha over the last few months...did the hydrogen peroxide thing, and have not yet seen a single plant come back (keeping in mind of course that these poor plants endured below freezing temps in the teens for more than five consecutive days)....

OUCH!

You took a HARD hit.

Given what you said, I suggest some further investigating.

Are the plants drinking the water in the pots and fully rooted?  In other words, when you water them, does the soil dry out quickly?  

Or are they starting to rot?  Or is the soil staying soggy much longer than for pots with plants that are healthy in them?  

If the latter, compost is the most, as we say . . . . .

Sorry to hear . . . .  :(

dave

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elHoagie

(osideterry @ Jul. 02 2007,18:01)

QUOTE
I had to plant it at a 45 degree angle to get a vertical trunk, and I may have left a void. That or latent winter damage.

Terry,

I've done that a couple times to tillering palms that were growing sideways.  Every time I did it the palm died.  I think they just don't like having their growth angle changed that much.  Now I just plant these types of palms at the same angle they were growing in the pot and wait for them to start growing vertically on their own.

As far as spear pulls.  I've always used 50/50 H202.  Like Dean said, the bubbling is good.  When the H202 reacts with the bad stuff it turns into water (H20) and releases that other oxygen atom, which is what causes the bubbling.  At least for me, most palms have recovered from a spear pull, but it takes a while...

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tropicalb

I already dumped most of them...and these poor guys were basically just TOAST all the way down....NO healthy roots at all.

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Charles Wychgel

No chemicals for me here... too much hassle, and I like my solutions to be au natural.

When I pulled the spear of my Dictyosperma var"rubrum" in February I stuffed the hole with a paper tissue and some wood ashes from my open fire(cooled down, naturellement).

Right now a paper tissue/wood ash wurst is slowly emerging pushed out by the new spear! Joepieeeee!!!!

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fiji jim

Jack,

Do you mean that you use a 50% strength H2O2 without diluting it ?

The most potent available here is 35% and we have been diluting it for other purposes.

At 35% pure it reacts strongly with some metals and other items.

The recommendation I found for use on seedling propagation trays was to dilute to a 6% strength.

This hissed and bubbled slightly but did not cure any problems. Meaning it did not kill the slime properly.

Jim

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ricardo peres

:angry: Friends,  

 

I have been losing a lot of palm trees with the rottenness in the crown (base of the log and roots), without apparent reason.  

I already lost a Dictyosperma album, some Thrinax and Cocothrinax and six Hyoprhorbe lagenicaulis.  

I am stunned.  

I don't know what to do.  

 

Ricardo. :angry:

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elHoagie

(fiji jim @ Jul. 03 2007,11:07)

QUOTE
Jack,

Do you mean that you use a 50% strength H2O2 without diluting it ?

The most potent available here is 35% and we have been diluting it for other purposes.

At 35% pure it reacts strongly with some metals and other items.

The recommendation I found for use on seedling propagation trays was to dilute to a 6% strength.

This hissed and bubbled slightly but did not cure any problems. Meaning it did not kill the slime properly.

Jim

Oops, that was a major mistake on my part.  I meant 3% H2O2, sorry for the confusion...

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Geoff

Having suffered through a severe freeze this winter, I had spikes pull out of no less than 15 palms (maybe more- I lost count).  ONe thing I noticed was

1) spikes are WAY more more likely to pull out of non-crownshafted feather palms than any other (this I have noticed in past from careless overwatering)... at least the species that can survive southern California.  

2) when spikes pull out of fan palms, the palm almost always comes back in time (unless the freeze destroyed a significant portion of the palm asside from the leaves- then it's usually a goner).

3) when spikes pull out of feather palms with no crownshaft (Parajubaeas, jubaeas, Raveneas, Howeas, Allogopteras, Syagrus and Butias- all which I experienced after this freeze- yes, even the Jubaea lost its spear!!) nearly ALL recovered eventually, save, again, those severely damaged below the leaves.   I did notice that a few that came back later died from my being careless again and letting water into the bud area).

4) when crownshaft palms lose a spear it's almost always fatal... at least in my yard.  Only one that came back after a spear being lost was my Chambeyronia.. .and it's not really back yet (has a 2" rotted off petiole and no other signs of life.. .but the petiole is green)... that included every Archontophoenix I owned, save a few kings, most of the Dypsis, most of the Chamaedoreas etc...  I did the hydrogen peroxide thing and no idea if that helped or not.  Seemed to 'cauterize' the leaves at the point of contact (this is the dilute 2% form you use to clean wounds.. not the concentrate you use to dye hair white).  Anyway, it was a hard year... lost about half the palms in the yard- all things I've grown before and never even hardly had cold damage in 13 years of growing palms.  Hope to not see that degree of freeze again in my lifetime.

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surgeon83

(Dypsisdean @ Jul. 03 2007,00:00)

QUOTE
Brian,

I think it is important to mention which species you had the most luck with. I'm guessing it was probably the tougher ones. And I'm guessing damage caused by heat is a different type than damage from rot and/or fungus.

It would be good to let us know, if you can remember.

Sure thing.  

Definitely the tougher species- I'm not going to plant rare, expensive plants in a climate like this.  :laugh:

A. alexandrae died right out- whole palm fell over

The rest are alive and growing now:

(2) Majesties (1 or both lost 2 spears)

D. Lutescens (2 clumps), several of the largest trunks lost spears

D. decaryi

Roystonea regia (every old leaf also died)

Spindle (this one had the stinky water in the crown all winter)

Ravenala madagascariensis (not a palm, but still).

The nature of the injury: the palms were wrapped with christmas lights, then surrounded by an insulated box, which was then filled with leaves enough to cover about a foot above the growing point.  The boxes were open on top so the leaves could stick out and photosynthesize, but this allowed rain water to soak the leaves.  They sat this way for over 3 weeks with the christmas lights on the whole time.  Heat and fungus were both present.

I'll get pictures if I ever get my computer back.

Brian

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LJG

Interesting Geoff. Of course all the ones that lost spears this year for me were crownshafted palms. Two Chambeyronias, one H. indica, two D. leptocheilos and one D. lanceolata - which lost two small suckers I believe due to overhead watering and the sun cooking the H2O trapped inside. I tossed the 2 Chambeyronias, H. indica and 2 leptocheilos. Since this Dypsis is a clumper, I can just cut the two large stems off that had the spears pulled.

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BS Man about Palms

Len- I've taken this opportunity to do experimentation and learning.  I've had lots of 1 gal plants die that were basically unprotected, but very few of the 5 gal on up "pull a spear", So I have been checking up on a few, and it looks like some are "pushing something"  I know if you leave whatever you put in the crown long enough that it turns to water, you will have a problem. It needs to be dry in there. The copper based stuff is good for drying out stuff. I might be worth getting on a ladder to use a paper towel to blot out some water.

I was at Shon's place and noted to him that I liked his "Bromeliad Kentia". He had put enough Hydrogen peroxide in there it was just staying a water pool.

Good luck, I think we all have at least a few we're nursing.

Bill

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garrin

I have posted this in the somewhat distant past, but I had a Caryota gigas here in Hawaii which severely declined from being moved several times over a short period.  Finally it turned brown and the center spear pulled out from deep inside leaving just a gaping hole in a brown decomposing stump.  I planted another tree next to it for a replacement without removing the caryota stump, and over TWO YEARS later a tiny, deformed spear emerged from the hole in the caryota.  This was followed rapidly by a somewhat larger leaf of more normal form, and then by complete leaves which restored the size of the original plant within about six months.  So don't give up!  It seems that some palms have quite an ability to come back from the grave.

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BS Man about Palms

Living in Hawaii helps alot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

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RichAZ

I'm wondering if anyone can share their thoughts on my situation here in Arizona.  I planted a 24" box Parajubaea Tor Tor during the "cool" season and it thrived.  I know it grows in the cool season so when Summer came, I shut off one drip and moved the other so it could get water but not be too wet.  Within a few weeks, our intense sun had fried every leaf and afer a few weeks of it looking awful, I removed them.  The spear pushing out I left in place even tough it was fried as well.  Yesterday I pulled on it and it came right out.  Wet on the bottom but not stinky so maybe from all monsoon rain we've had lately.  Any chance this thing will come back?  It looks pretty dead but who knows....

 

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Ben in Norcal
38 minutes ago, RichAZ said:

I'm wondering if anyone can share their thoughts on my situation here in Arizona.  I planted a 24" box Parajubaea Tor Tor during the "cool" season and it thrived.  I know it grows in the cool season so when Summer came, I shut off one drip and moved the other so it could get water but not be too wet.  Within a few weeks, our intense sun had fried every leaf and afer a few weeks of it looking awful, I removed them.  The spear pushing out I left in place even tough it was fried as well.  Yesterday I pulled on it and it came right out.  Wet on the bottom but not stinky so maybe from all monsoon rain we've had lately.  Any chance this thing will come back?  It looks pretty dead but who knows....

 

I'm losing one as well...fried to a crisp...no spear pull yet though.

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RichAZ

Sorry to hear that Ben.  It's a tough call whether to replace it or just let it sit there looking awful until it rots or revives.  I'm leaning towards a rip and replace....

.  

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