About Cold Damage and Northern Gulf Coast

[Tropicdoc 462]

Wow, Keith. You got nailed. Is your Arenga under canopy? I can't remember. That, among your list, would be the biggest loss in my opinion.

My small (about 4 foot) Arenga, under heavy canopy, took about 50% foliage burn, and has a slow spear typical of the plant. 

The only palms I will plant not under canopy moving forward are Livistona chinensis and butia or jubaea hybrids.

I realized yesterday that I have more palms than planting spots! I guess I got carried away.

BTW, Keith, I'm gonna give my Alfies to my buddy who has a camp on Grand Isle. Maybe they can get going there- but unlikely.

-Chad

[Matthew92 1,150]

On ‎2‎/‎27‎/‎2018‎ ‎5‎:‎11‎:‎18‎, Sandy Loam said:

Wow.  I am surprised to hear about CIDP being removed.  That's bad.  Maybe queens, but CIDP?!!  The extreme lost temperature on the coldest night in NOLA was 19 F, wasn't it?

ShadowNight030, you mentioned that the Bougainvillea are coming back again, but from the roots..  How do Bougainvillea do over winter in New Orleans?  Does it vary from year to year?   Here in northeastern Florida, they generally die back in winter, but just a couple of hours south of here, in Tampa and Orlando, Bougainvillea grow into big trees which stay beautiful all winter long.     

Based on what I have seen here, I suspect that your Pygmy date palms will come back again.  During northeastern Florida freezes, I have seen several Pygmy Date Palms turn 100% brown/grey, but they always seem to recover again.  Their fronds are very dainty for such a bud-hardy tree.  The 2009-2010 freezes were so bad here, but the Pygmy Date Palms all came back again.      

I'd say P. robelleni are more 9a bud hardy for all intensive purposes- I think your area has so much tree canopy that there is more protection than the open areas that experienced 17 degrees in 2010.

My area went through a Phoenix robelleni mania about 10-15 years ago. It seemed everyone was determined to make them a landscaping staple, especially out near the beach areas. When I moved back here in 2007, they were everywhere and many had survived and grown considerably after a string of milder winters. Over the next several years, I noticed their tenderness, but many people would dutifully cover them when we had hard freezes. However, 2010 was the first of the really hard freezes (still nothing unusual for our area at 17 degrees). Many died and some were still damaged or died even with being covered. Next few years, I could tell people were becoming less enthusiastic with them realizing how much work they are to protect. There was a house near the corner of a road that had them lining their driveway, I mean like 10 multi trucked clumps that were of mature size. These people would very dutifully cover them with thick cloth with a spotlight underneath each one. It worked wonderfully until the zone 8b freezes came. I think they survived for the most part in 2010- with maybe some damage, but 2014, they covered them the same as always but the 17 degree freeze where it didn't get above freezing the next day with very low 20's the next night, and then a freezing rain event a couple weeks later with 20 degrees that evening, the protection didn't even matter, and most of them were killed outright. A very scanty few hung on for a little while after but quickly declined. There is only one P. robelleni clump I've seen in the area that did come back after 8b temps. It was planted in 2014 (after winter). All but one trunk in the clump were killed in Jan 2015 with temps just below 20 deg. I was very surprised it came back but it did. Survived 22 degrees in Jan 2017 (losing all fronds of course), but this year it looks like it's done for. After 2014-2015 P. robelleni are most all gone throughout the area, even near the beaches.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Opal92

[Tropicdoc 462]

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2018‎ ‎7‎:‎46‎:‎34‎, Sandy Loam said:

Wow.  I can't believe we talking about Phoenix Canariensis, Syagrus Romanzoffiana, Phoenix Reclinata and Livistona Chinensis as at-risk Palms in the panhandle.  Those are some of the bullet-proof palms here in Gainesville and, despite the nasty January 2018 freeze, none of those species suffered any damage here,  Naturally, the tender stuff was fried, but the cold-hardy palms were completely unharmed here.  And yet, I am located at almost the same latitude as you, Opal, and you are closer to an "ocean" than me.

There are not a lot of Bismarckia Nobilis here in Gainesville, but two that I recently drove past did not look damaged by the big January 2018 freeze.  The Phoenix Robelleni, on the other hand, are looking badly damaged, among many other zone 9b palms and plants that probably don't belong way up here in northeastern Florida.

Bizmarkia not damaged? Maybe they turned purple and will turn brown once heat arrives.

[Duppy 21]

My Bizzy was fried, and then hit with fungus. I tried copper spray but gave up on that. I’ve now cut down past what I think was all the fungus but I’m not sure how far down the meristem I should/can go. This is my last ditch effort to save it. 

 

Edited March 1, 2018 by Duppy

[ShadowNight030 74]

5 hours ago, Tropicdoc said:

Wow, Keith. You got nailed. Is your Arenga under canopy? I can't remember. That, among your list, would be the biggest loss in my opinion.

My small (about 4 foot) Arenga, under heavy canopy, took about 50% foliage burn, and has a slow spear typical of the plant. 

The only palms I will plant not under canopy moving forward are Livistona chinensis and butia or jubaea hybrids.

I realized yesterday that I have more palms than planting spots! I guess I got carried away.

BTW, Keith, I'm gonna give my Alfies to my buddy who has a camp on Grand Isle. Maybe they can get going there- but unlikely.

-Chad

What is an Alfie? I’m still relatively new to palms, so I don’t know all their shorter names. And grand isle is a pretty solid zone 9b and maybe could be a 10a depending on winters. I was told this year the lowest temp was 27ish, but I haven’t heard a reliable source tell me. 

[Xerarch 1,125]

17 minutes ago, ShadowNight030 said:

What is an Alfie? I’m still relatively new to palms, so I don’t know all their shorter names. And grand isle is a pretty solid zone 9b and maybe could be a 10a depending on winters. I was told this year the lowest temp was 27ish, but I haven’t heard a reliable source tell me. 

Beccariophoenix alfredii 

[Sandy Loam 340]

9 hours ago, Tropicdoc said:

Bizmarkia not damaged? Maybe they turned purple and will turn brown once heat arrives.

Actually, I just drove past a pair of Bismarckias (both on the same property) that had some bronzing on both of them (zero overhead canopy for protection). They were not badly damaged, but they had that bronzed look on parts of the leaves. Sometimes it takes a while for damage to show up. I suppose. 

My own bismarckias were not harmed at all, but other plants in my yard have since shown quite a bit of damage.

[Matthew92 1,150]

2 hours ago, Sandy Loam said:

Actually, I just drove past a pair of Bismarckias (both on the same property) that had some bronzing on both of them (zero overhead canopy for protection). They were not badly damaged, but they had that bronzed look on parts of the leaves. Sometimes it takes a while for damage to show up. I suppose. 

My own bismarckias were not harmed at all, but other plants in my yard have since shown quite a bit of damage.

Is there a lot of surrounding tree canopy by or in your yard?

[_Keith 772]

12 hours ago, Tropicdoc said:

Wow, Keith. You got nailed. Is your Arenga under canopy? I can't remember. That, among your list, would be the biggest loss in my opinion.

My small (about 4 foot) Arenga, under heavy canopy, took about 50% foliage burn, and has a slow spear typical of the plant. 

The only palms I will plant not under canopy moving forward are Livistona chinensis and butia or jubaea hybrids.

I realized yesterday that I have more palms than planting spots! I guess I got carried away.

BTW, Keith, I'm gonna give my Alfies to my buddy who has a camp on Grand Isle. Maybe they can get going there- but unlikely.

-Chad

It was under no canopy.   As for the alphies, I give them to some one St Pete or further south, lol.

 

[_Keith 772]

51 minutes ago, Opal92 said:

Is there a lot of surrounding tree canopy by or in your yard?

I do have canopy, both deciduous and Live Oaks, but all are large and suck moisture out of the ground like a tornado sucks up hay.   It is a bear to get anything established.  It takes years.  If you get busy and distracted for even a short time, you finally get out there and see a dead brown plant.

[Tropicdoc 462]

8 hours ago, _Keith said:

I do have canopy, both deciduous and Live Oaks, but all are large and suck moisture out of the ground like a tornado sucks up hay.   It is a bear to get anything established.  It takes years.  If you get busy and distracted for even a short time, you finally get out there and see a dead brown plant.

Maybe take a note from the Cali guys and use timed drip irrigation. My jungle area under live oak did well with sprinklers installed. It has since succumbed to bulldozers during pool install

[PeterPalm 1]

On 2/1/2018, 4:26:43, _Keith said:

If you are on the northern Gulf Coast you got stung hard this year,   From Houston to the Florida Panhandle it was brutal.  Coldest temps here in Louisiana in the last 28 years, not once but in 2 separate cold fronts just 2-3 weeks apart.   The first one was dry, so I held out hope, but the 2nd came in colder and wetter at 17 degrees.  By midsummer I expect total foliage loss on all Phoenix, Livistona, Washingtonia, Syagrus species.  Mules will be 90% foliage loss by midsummer.  Deaths will be numerous, hurts to even think about it.  Sabals, Butia, Chamaerops, Chamaedorea remain untouched.

Why do I say "by midsummer"?   Because only when the heat arrives and the crown begin to recover do you know.  I have had palms flush new leaves and appear to be on the road to recovery later suddenly die because the trunk was too damages to support the nutrients needed for a full crown.   Sometimes they just slowly wither away through the summer.  Others fall prone to disease.  And this freeze was much colder than theirs.  Only in the heat of summer will you know what even has a chance to make it. 

Still holding out hope for my big cold hardy queen to recover.  Why?  Its 3 seedlings growing underneath, unprotected but with natural cover appear undamaged.  That blew me away, but lets wait till the heat gets here to know for sure.

Good luck all.

Keith

 

[PeterPalm 1]

Just now, PeterPalm said:

 

I’m in New Orleans and cut 5 inches off the top 2weeks ago due to rot, even though a couple of surviving fronds had green near the base.  Have been applying copper ever since and the bud has grown by several inches.  Any concensus if my tree is going to make it?  Thanks : )

[GottmitAlex 3,760]

Mortus est.

[PeterPalm 1]

But its still growing...i thought if it was moving its still alive, no?

[Palmensammler 324]

Hi,

I have a similar case with one of my Roystonea regia seedlings. It was looking completely dead so I decided to cut it down. Two weeks later the center of the remaining trunk was lifting and today the new leave / trunk is about 1 1/2 inch and looking green.

So if you don't need the space and don't care about the look give it a try.

Regards

Eckhard

Edited March 12, 2018 by Palmensammler

[TexasColdHardyPalms 3,229]

Pics at moody gardens in Galveston.  Probably warmest area on the island, which the queens and pygmy dates confirmed

[TexasColdHardyPalms 3,229]

Royals against the south facing two story building. All but one look like they will 100% live. 

[TexasColdHardyPalms 3,229]

Triangle and another pygmy.  One triangle is alive the other doesnt look good. 

[TexasColdHardyPalms 3,229]

Royals and caryota. Big difference between royals with and without two story protection royals.

Caryota seeded last year from the looks of it. 

[PalmTreeDude 1,841]

This is painful to look at... 

[TexasColdHardyPalms 3,229]

Bismarckia damaged ranged. Else where on the island they were totally defoliated and the ones in the back yard of topwater in texas city looked better. The few in houston i saw looked just like every single queen in houston-100% defoliatef or dead.  

[TexasColdHardyPalms 3,229]

One more bismarckia. 

[TexasColdHardyPalms 3,229]

More phoenix. Remember these were the best looking phoenix that i saw except for a few in TC and downtown galveston against 3-5story buildings.  I think the bigger clump was reclinata. One was totally burn the other was slightly burned. 

[TexasColdHardyPalms 3,229]

Two mules on north side were burnt, while the one up front looked good. 

[TexasColdHardyPalms 3,229]

Only place on the island where i saw any queens that had zero burn. About half burned here. I had to get all the way to texas city before i saw a queen with ANY green foliage. 

[ShadowNight030 74]

It’s starting to get ridiculous the rate of palms getting cut down here. I understand the queen and majesty palms in my neighborhood getting replaced from 16 degrees, but people are cutting down Mexican fans and medjool dates. The other day in Lake Charles (I believe the low was high teens) I saw Mexican fan stumps that looked freshly cut, when the other Mexican fans are partially green still, but the queens next to them were 100% brown. A few more nice sized canary palms have been removed as well. I almost flipped out when I saw a mule getting cut down that have severe burn, but was likely to return from the green spear it had. 

Edited March 13, 2018 by ShadowNight030

[ShadowNight030 74]

Also, what was the low in Galveston? I see he Pygmy dates and Bismarcks are burned, but the Norfolks in the pictures look fine 

[TexasColdHardyPalms 3,229]

This was the only place on the island that had a few unburned Norfolk.  Others on the island ranged from totally brown to 50% burned.

[TexasColdHardyPalms 3,229]

           High          Low

1/16    58              29

1/17    36             25

1/18    41             32

[TexasColdHardyPalms 3,229]

Houston

       High          Low

1/2      34             29

1/3      46             26

1/16    55             25

1/17    37             20

1/18    39             26

[TexasColdHardyPalms 3,229]

I think most of the queens in Houston will die and all of the pygmy dates.  Livistona decora in I45 ranged from 100% defoliated to 50%.  Washingtonia all through the city were defoliated along with the CIDP.  Only Dactylifera inside the loop and south of town had 0-50% burn.

[ShadowNight030 74]

Went to Galveston during the summer, was amazed by the palms and plants I saw. It makes me sad seeing this. I left 7 nice sized Norfolks out in 25 in freezing rain, 2 are dead, one has drooping branches, but the new top growth is green, and the rest are 90% burned with one that was hiding under another that looks perfectly fine and green. 

[Matthew92 1,150]

Wow, that microclimate had been keeping those marginal palms going for quite awhile. I'm surprised to see how some of those queens don't look damaged, and then some mules damaged. Seems like mules can be hit or miss with some sailing through upper teens and other taking damage in the mid 20's.

[Matthew92 1,150]

Evidently got quite cold in Ocala this year- here are some burned Washingtonias I saw driving through there today.

There seems to be quite a divide just north of the confines of the Orlando area in terms of lows during a cold event. This burned Bismarkia was a good ways south of Ocala and still had considerable browning. I almost didn't include this picture because it is so blurry (driving down the highway- don't worry I wasn't the one driving). But still you can make out that it does have some damage. This was at one of those abandoned nurseries along the highway.

[RedRabbit 1,961]

Wow, Galveston looks really bad. I thought it was supposed to be 10a? The damage looks worse than 25f tbh.

[Sandy Loam 340]

2 hours ago, Opal92 said:

Evidently got quite cold in Ocala this year- here are some burned Washingtonias I saw driving through there today.

There seems to be quite a divide just north of the confines of the Orlando area in terms of lows during a cold event. This burned Bismarkia was a good ways south of Ocala and still had considerable browning. I almost didn't include this picture because it is so blurry (driving down the highway- don't worry I wasn't the one driving). But still you can make out that it does have some damage. This was at one of those abandoned nurseries along the highway.

Yeah, Ocala is almost the same climate as where you live up in the panhandle.  It is an hour north of Orlando but winters can be quite a bit colder just a very short distance north of Orlando.  It's strange how Tampa is like that too. 

[Sandy Loam 340]

3 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

           High          Low

1/16    58              29

1/17    36             25

1/18    41             32

Wow, those photos seem like way too much damage for 25 degrees.  They must have spent MANY hours below freezing for this to have happened.  Did someone say that there was freezing rain there too? Maybe that was the culprit.  What a shame. 

[Tropicdoc 462]

Good to see Galveston pics of my old stomping grounds. The whole Galveston 10a thing is right. It's very rare for Galveston to frost. But my understanding is that USDA zones are what ultimate low on average can be expected every winter. That means that outliers exist and 9b/9a temps CAN happen. Just like I am in zone 9a. But, rare winters are 30 and above and rare winters are below 20. And our record low is 4 degrees F!

[Kailua_Krish 573]

On 3/12/2018, 8:05:43, Sandy Loam said:

Yeah, Ocala is almost the same climate as where you live up in the panhandle.  It is an hour north of Orlando but winters can be quite a bit colder just a very short distance north of Orlando.  It's strange how Tampa is like that too. 

The weird thing about Ocala is how much the climate varies within a few miles. SW Ocala is consistently warmer than downtown and the airport. If you look at the multiple temp readings in the area this becomes apparent. I’m not exactly sure why this occurs but was glad I was in the warmer area