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Jimbean

For those in zone 9A What palms can you push?

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Jimbean

So there is a good chance I might be moving to either the north side of Orlando or Plant city area.  Both of these locations are zone 9A.  I already know to look around to see what's already growing, but what is your personal experiences of what grows there, what's marginal, and what only lasts maybe a few years.

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Jimbean

I think I may just go ahead and make a zone map of the Orlando area.

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kinzyjr

9a: Your standard cold hardy palms to ~20F.  I'm not far from Plant City, but most of it is fairly cold compared to the more urban areas.  Orlando, well, that's a little harder.  @Eric in Orlando knows more of the microclimates there.

For Plant City: Old reliable types - Phoenix sp., Sabal sp., Butia sp., Chamaerops sp., Bismarckia Nobilis (silver/blue), Livistona Chinensis,

Pushing It: Roystonea Regia, Archontophoenix Alexandrae

Serious Protection: Cocos nucifera

Full 9a List is attached in Excel format.

20180202_9a_Palms.xls

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RedRabbit

Where exactly in the Orlando area? You should be in 9b there unless you're really out in the country.

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GottmitAlex

Pretty sure you'll be able grow B. Alfredii if the zone is a 9B. If it's a 9A, it's pushing the envelope. A dry, California 9A can sustain a B. Alfredii. However, humid 9A zones like parts of Florida/Louisiana cannot. But it's worth a try. Closest coconut look-alike around.

 

 

 

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Fusca

I'm wondering myself about the possibility of B. alfredii here in 9a south-central Texas.  San Antonio is fairly humid at times, but not nearly as much as Gulf coast Houston.  Seems to be drier in winter so it may fare better here.  Still seems unlikely because we can get colder winter minimum temps, but maybe worth a shot.  

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Tropicdoc

According to _Keith B alfredii gets foliage burn around 28 or 29 so if those temps are common every winter your palm will be brown most of the time but might survive if you don’t get a 30 year arctic blast like we just got which will kill it

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Zeeth
7 minutes ago, Tropicdoc said:

According to _Keith B alfredii gets foliage burn around 28 or 29 so if those temps are common every winter your palm will be brown most of the time but might survive if you don’t get a 30 year arctic blast like we just got which will kill it

I'm not sure what the level of variability with B. alfredii is, or how the difference in your climate factors into things, but mine all saw 28.7˚ F this winter and were undamaged. Check out the burned bananas and tropical fruit trees. 

IMG_0654.thumb.jpg.65f45e69fc5f8f6a850c8

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Kailua_Krish

Dypsis decepiens grew well for me in 9a but you have to find a spot they will grow and get one established which can be tricky. I used a lot of hybrid cocoid palms in my landscape and then used Livistona plus Arenga ryukyuensis to create a tropical understory. Mix in cycads, alocasia, and australian tree ferns and your have a pretty nice tropical yard. Some bismarkia also do remarkably well in 9a (very plant dependent) but mostly I stuck with the Sabals for large palmate palms. I wish I had planted less Phoenix palms as they are simply too spiny. Don't forget Cham macrospadix as another small nice one to fill in areas.

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Tropicdoc
14 minutes ago, krishnaraoji88 said:

Dypsis decepiens grew well for me in 9a but you have to find a spot they will grow and get one established which can be tricky. I used a lot of hybrid cocoid palms in my landscape and then used Livistona plus Arenga ryukyuensis to create a tropical understory. Mix in cycads, alocasia, and australian tree ferns and your have a pretty nice tropical yard. Some bismarkia also do remarkably well in 9a (very plant dependent) but mostly I stuck with the Sabals for large palmate palms. I wish I had planted less Phoenix palms as they are simply too spiny. Don't forget Cham macrospadix as another small nice one to fill in areas.

You just nailed it also C radicalis and rhapis for understory split philodendrons and dwarf gingers for perennial understory 

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Tropicdoc
1 hour ago, Zeeth said:

I'm not sure what the level of variability with B. alfredii is, or how the difference in your climate factors into things, but mine all saw 28.7˚ F this winter and were undamaged. Check out the burned bananas and tropical fruit trees. 

IMG_0654.thumb.jpg.65f45e69fc5f8f6a850c8

I don’t get it, something about wet Louisiana winters precludes us from some palms. But the 28 degrees you got from a freak arctic intrusion is a yearly event here so alfredii is not going to do well. I gave _Keith 4 of them about 5 years ago and he planted them under live oak canopy and they are all dead now

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Tropicdoc

Your alfie looks good though I can only wish

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Tropicdoc

And trachycarpus Martianus is turning out to be a beautiful and cold hardy palm for me under live oak canopy

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Kailua_Krish

My alfredii has also been hardier than 29. I do know the few times my 9a got rain before a freeze the palms did much worse. The nice thing about peninsular florida is usually freezes are dry which I think helps the palms. I had a JxS get frond damage and spear pull as a small palm at temps in the high 20s due to it being wet.

If interested there are a couple of threads floating around of my old place in Ocala that may have some ideas of what you can grow. Last time I was there we had flood damage from Irma (whole front yard was under several feet of water for over a week) so Im not sure what survived nor do I have updated pictures. Unfortunately cold hardiness seems to be at odds with flood tolerance except with our Florida native plants.

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Tropicdoc
8 minutes ago, krishnaraoji88 said:

My alfredii has also been hardier than 29. I do know the few times my 9a got rain before a freeze the palms did much worse. The nice thing about peninsular florida is usually freezes are dry which I think helps the palms. I had a JxS get frond damage and spear pull as a small palm at temps in the high 20s due to it being wet.

If interested there are a couple of threads floating around of my old place in Ocala that may have some ideas of what you can grow. Last time I was there we had flood damage from Irma (whole front yard was under several feet of water for over a week) so Im not sure what survived nor do I have updated pictures. Unfortunately cold hardiness seems to be at odds with flood tolerance except with our Florida native plants.

When you say “hardier” does that mean survived or went through winter without brown leaves. I am not trying to be nit picky.... I have 2 alfies and a primo microclimate spot (next to south facing brick wall under canopy next to hot tub and pool) and I don’t want to waste the spot on a brown palm

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Kailua_Krish

Im not sure about this year however they have not had brown leaves in the past few years. Granted all my 9a stuff is under higher canopy from large old live oaks. In the heavily exposed areas I used 8b plants to limit "browning" over winter as much as possible

 

Edit: That spot actually sounds perfect for a Dypsis decipiens, thats more or less how mine is planted (however without canopy) and it always looks good (however is slow)

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Jimbean
11 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Where exactly in the Orlando area? You should be in 9b there unless you're really out in the country.

Apopka or Maitland.  Further south towards the urban areas it is zone 9B, but further north, especially north of Lake Apopka, it is zone 9A

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Jimbean
2 hours ago, Zeeth said:

I'm not sure what the level of variability with B. alfredii is, or how the difference in your climate factors into things, but mine all saw 28.7˚ F this winter and were undamaged. Check out the burned bananas and tropical fruit trees. 

IMG_0654.thumb.jpg.65f45e69fc5f8f6a850c8

That sounds promising.  Perhaps it is a good candidate for being a zone 9B palm.

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Jimbean

http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/SUBTROPICAL_SURVIVABILITY_INDEX

 

if using Palmpedia's subtropical survivability index:

anything > 29F is the queen zone

29F to 31F is roughly the Bismark zone

31F to 32F is roughly the King zone

32F to 33F is the Royal zone

33F to 34F is the Manila zone

34F < is the coco zone

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Fusca

This index is interesting, but a little deceptive depending on the type of queen or bismark that you can grow because there seems to be quite a bit of variation in these 2 ("silver queen" vs. "tropical queen", "purple/silver bismark" vs. "not so silver bismark").  I'm assuming that they are using the least cold-hardy type for the queen and bismark for these lists to be safe.

Jon

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PalmTreeDude
8 hours ago, Jimbean said:

fl.gif

What does each color represent? Red = 10a? 

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TexasColdHardyPalms

Tan is 10a

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Jimbean
2 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

What does each color represent? Red = 10a? 

 

2 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Tan is 10a

The red on the Brevard county coastline is 10A, the tan is warm 9B, the yellow is cold 9B, the orange is warm 9A, and the pink is cold 9A.  This is not based on averages, but what effectively grows there long term, and takes record lows into account rather than just averages.  So for example, I have found that the average annual minimum of 32F, although is technically zone 10A, is only marginal for royals long term.

 

Going back on a post earlier:

http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/SUBTROPICAL_SURVIVABILITY_INDEX

using Palmpedia's subtropical survivability index:

The king zone is warm 9B (tan color on the map), the royal zone is probably the area that is 9B/10A, and the manila zone is probably a good indicator of zone 10A roughly.

 

What's probably a better indicator is the invasive species.  Vigorous and numerous Brazilian peppertrees an indicator of 9B, and large Casurarina equisetifolia an indicator of 10A

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RedRabbit

I'd disregard that zone map, it doesn't represent the area well.

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Matthew92
17 hours ago, krishnaraoji88 said:

Dypsis decepiens grew well for me in 9a but you have to find a spot they will grow and get one established which can be tricky. I used a lot of hybrid cocoid palms in my landscape and then used Livistona plus Arenga ryukyuensis to create a tropical understory. Mix in cycads, alocasia, and australian tree ferns and your have a pretty nice tropical yard. Some bismarkia also do remarkably well in 9a (very plant dependent) but mostly I stuck with the Sabals for large palmate palms. I wish I had planted less Phoenix palms as they are simply too spiny. Don't forget Cham macrospadix as another small nice one to fill in areas.

Wow, that is exactly what I've been wanting to do if I ever get a sizeable yard in this area. I've drooled over Arena ryukyuensis for quite some time now. I don't know where you would get them though and make sure they are the cold hardy strain. Same with C. macrospadix. I've created a list of palms and tropical looking trees/shrubs that would work in my 8b zone. For the palms, I have a "Very little to no damage (Sabal, cocoid hybrids, Butia, C. radicalis etc...)" category, "May be damaged or severely damaged occasionally (Livistona sp, Phoenix canariensis, lady palm, Acoelorrhaphe wrightii, etc...) category," and "Needs microclimate/protection or may die in colder winters (Syagrus r., Howea f., Ravenea glauca, Phoenix reclinata, etc...)" category. 

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Kailua_Krish

I grew mine from seed from RPS I think. C. macrospadix were all seed grown from seeds at the USF botanical garden, they fruit prolifically after just a few years so you can amass quite a few. If I were in Florida now Id send you some but it will likely be 1+ years before I go back.

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Matthew92
17 minutes ago, krishnaraoji88 said:

I grew mine from seed from RPS I think. C. macrospadix were all seed grown from seeds at the USF botanical garden, they fruit prolifically after just a few years so you can amass quite a few. If I were in Florida now Id send you some but it will likely be 1+ years before I go back.

Cool, hopefully I can find some C. macrospadix when I do any traveling throughout S. FL this year. I've only ever seen 1 in person in FL. It was in Gainesville but didn't have any fruit.

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Eric in Orlando

Orange County is hard to do a zone map. There are so many microclimates because of all the lakes, urban heat island,hills, tree canopy, etc. the whole county is a good 9b. The urban core is a bordeline 10a as are areas east and south of larger lakes.  NW parts of the county are 9a. But it can really vary even on small properties. Leu Gardens is 50 acres just north of downtown and on the SE side of Lake Rowena with a decent tree canopy. We can grow many tender tropical plants and palms but not on the entire property. Sometime in the early 2000s we had one night freeze. Our weather station recorded 29F as did the official NWS station a couple miles away at Orlando Executive Airport. We put about a dozen hi/low thermometers out around the garden. They ranged from 26-35F. A majority registered 28-29F. This big of a range on just 50 acres. So the best thing to do is check out several blocks from where you want to live. I have been watching cold damage now the last couple weeks and it really varies around town. Most Wodyetia show burn but I see some with none. I have even seen a few Adonidia with no damage. I have even seen some bananas with green leaves still.

Apopka is defintely a cold spot unless you have good tree canopy. Maitland can vary but closer to Winter Park has some really warm pockets.

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Jimbean
20 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

I'd disregard that zone map, it doesn't represent the area well.

The map is based on long term survivability, not just what grows there post 1989. 

11 hours ago, Eric in Orlando said:

Orange County is hard to do a zone map. There are so many microclimates because of all the lakes, urban heat island,hills, tree canopy, etc. the whole county is a good 9b. The urban core is a bordeline 10a as are areas east and south of larger lakes.  NW parts of the county are 9a. But it can really vary even on small properties. Leu Gardens is 50 acres just north of downtown and on the SE side of Lake Rowena with a decent tree canopy. We can grow many tender tropical plants and palms but not on the entire property. Sometime in the early 2000s we had one night freeze. Our weather station recorded 29F as did the official NWS station a couple miles away at Orlando Executive Airport. We put about a dozen hi/low thermometers out around the garden. They ranged from 26-35F. A majority registered 28-29F. This big of a range on just 50 acres. So the best thing to do is check out several blocks from where you want to live. I have been watching cold damage now the last couple weeks and it really varies around town. Most Wodyetia show burn but I see some with none. I have even seen a few Adonidia with no damage. I have even seen some bananas with green leaves still.

Apopka is defintely a cold spot unless you have good tree canopy. Maitland can vary but closer to Winter Park has some really warm pockets.

Years ago I tried to do a very detailed zone map of Orange and Seminole counties and it was more difficult than highlands county.  I ended up giving up because I realized that it would take more time than what I had, plus I was not as personally familiar with Apopka and west Orange county enough.  If I end up living there I will do a detailed map.  Also, I would be very interested in what survived in Leu Gardens after the 1989 freeze (19F).  Thank you.

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