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PalmTreeDude

Small Area of Zone 10a In Lousisana

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PalmTreeDude

On the interactive USDA map I found a small area that is zone 10a in Louisiana. I know many people disagree with the map, but I just find this interesting. Does anyone know if any coconuts or any other 10a palms or plants in general are grown there? Is it just forest? Take a look.

 

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Palmaceae

Just because the zone is listed as zone 10a I am sure coconuts will not grow there. That is one of the issues with the zones as we know it, just because the low temps may reflect zone 10a, you also have to look at the average highs, and the average highs there will no way be high enough to support coconut palms. Just like here in Florida, you have zone 10a for Anna Marie Island but it is certainly different than zone 10a where I live in Cape Coral. That is because of the average high temps in the winter.

For example look at the coconuts at Anna Marie Island and even on St Armands key in Sarasota, then look at them here in Cape Coral and Ft Myers, you will see a big difference on how they look, they look much healthier here than they do further north. Then same thing in Miami and the keys, those coconuts look better than they do here in Cape Coral.

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topwater

Don't know about coconuts but Venice LA is an awesome spot for offshore fishing :lol:

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PalmTreeDude
1 hour ago, RedRabbit said:

Yeah, buf if you look, it is actually pretty big, compared to two huge cargo ships I saw in the canal on Google Earth. But no signs of residents! 

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TexasColdHardyPalms

That may be classified as land but im sure that is so marshy that you couldn't  walk on most of the year.

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pin38

That interactive map's got some goofy quirks, though they are interesting and fun to look for.  It has a couple pixels of 9b on a mountain side in southern New Mexico, a couple squares of 8a on the Oregon border in Idaho.  It's like a climate nerd's Easter egg hunt.  I've looked for zone 8 in Colorado, nothing so far...

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Xerarch
2 hours ago, pin38 said:

That interactive map's got some goofy quirks, though they are interesting and fun to look for.  It has a couple pixels of 9b on a mountain side in southern New Mexico, a couple squares of 8a on the Oregon border in Idaho.  It's like a climate nerd's Easter egg hunt.  I've looked for zone 8 in Colorado, nothing so far...

I found a blip of 9b in Utah a while back and made a thread about it, maybe it's believable in that particular spot in Utah, but interesting to see the quirks in the map. 

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pin38
28 minutes ago, Xerarch said:

I found a blip of 9b in Utah a while back and made a thread about it, maybe it's believable in that particular spot in Utah, but interesting to see the quirks in the map. 

I remember that thread, it's partly what sparked me looking for other anomalies. 

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Walt

IMO, a true zone 10a climate (and probably the best with respect to growing coconut palms) is one that has no topographical influences, such as water (ocean, Gulf), elevation, urban heat island effect, etc.. It's farther longitudinal location towards the equator is basically responsible for it's 10a climate -- and not topographical influencing features.

IMO, a true zone 10a climate, at least in Florida, would be more like an area of Homestead or some point inland in a remote area without any influences as stated above.  Such an area would have a higher average temperature and higher daytime temperatures with probably the maximum temperature swing from low to high.

Conversely, a zone 10a location at a much higher latitude, but next to a large water body, would have lower average (wintertime) temperatures due to the water. The water would help hold the low temperatures up, but it would also hold daytime temperatures down as the water absorbed heat from the air and direct radiation from the sun, especially if the wind is coming off the water. The temperature swing from low to high would span less in degrees.

So, the upshot here is, no way would a 10a location up in Louisiana delta area be comparable to a 10a location in inland south Florida, with respect to the average heat a coconut palm needs to sustain itself. Even though an area has a zone 10a USDA rating, unless it has the adequate wintertime heat (air and soil temperature) coconut palms probably wouldn't make it there.

 

 

 

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DCA_Palm_Fan

That's exactly it Walt.  We see the same thing here all the time.  The official daily temps are taken at National Airport (DCA)  for DC itself.  (DCA is actually in the commonwealth of Virginia)   They're always off by a good 4°-8° F, even sometimes more.  The reasons for this is that DCA is literally built out into the river quite a bit.   It's at it's most noticeable during spring and fall but lasts through the winter as well.  There are days in winter that get warm (60s- 70s sometimes 80s) when the surrounding temps reflect that.  At the same time places like DCA or Annapolis will stay in the upper 50s to low 60s because of the cold water.   It's the opposite at night.  Those ares will stay substantially warmer than just a mile away.  I'm sure you are familiar with the long standing arguments that happen about the official weather measurements being taken at DCA, and their terrible accuracy in relation to even very close surrounding areas.  They can't even seem to measure snow right.  There was a big scandal about that last year during our big blizzard  when everywhere got on the order of 26-32".  DCA measured a paltry 17" while less than a mile away 26-28" was common.  

Anyway, maybe someone can get on a boat and drop a dozen coconuts on shore or as far in as they can get and see what happens.  Haha. That will be the ultimate test.  My guess is that they would not make it long term.   

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Yunder Wækraus
On 11/22/2016, 7:39:06, Walt said:

IMO, a true zone 10a climate (and probably the best with respect to growing coconut palms) is one that has no topographical influences, such as water (ocean, Gulf), elevation, urban heat island effect, etc.. It's farther longitudinal location towards the equator is basically responsible for it's 10a climate -- and not topographical influencing features.

IMO, a true zone 10a climate, at least in Florida, would be more like an area of Homestead or some point inland in a remote area without any influences as stated above.  Such an area would have a higher average temperature and higher daytime temperatures with probably the maximum temperature swing from low to high.

Conversely, a zone 10a location at a much higher latitude, but next to a large water body, would have lower average (wintertime) temperatures due to the water. The water would help hold the low temperatures up, but it would also hold daytime temperatures down as the water absorbed heat from the air and direct radiation from the sun, especially if the wind is coming off the water. The temperature swing from low to high would span less in degrees.

So, the upshot here is, no way would a 10a location up in Louisiana delta area be comparable to a 10a location in inland south Florida, with respect to the average heat a coconut palm needs to sustain itself. Even though an area has a zone 10a USDA rating, unless it has the adequate wintertime heat (air and soil temperature) coconut palms probably wouldn't make it there.

 

 

 

Our island in Central Florida actually averages out to a weak 10b over the past 60 years (as Zeeth recently told me), and I know for a fact that there are parts of Florida more than 100 miles south that aren't even a 10a over the same period of time. I just don't understand the claim that the topographical basis for a microclimate might somehow negate its equivalence to the prevailing climate of true tropical points closer to the equator. I doubt this dot in Louisiana actually exists as a viable microclimate, but I have little doubt that a robust zone 10a climate could exist that far north. If a ridge of 14,000' mountains were to rise in an east-to-west direction from Oklahoma to NC, I have zero doubt that Gulf of Mexico islands as far north as Louisiana would be solid 10a climates and would have enough winter heat to grow coconuts.

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Walt
3 hours ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

Our island in Central Florida actually averages out to a weak 10b over the past 60 years (as Zeeth recently told me), and I know for a fact that there are parts of Florida more than 100 miles south that aren't even a 10a over the same period of time. I just don't understand the claim that the topographical basis for a microclimate might somehow negate its equivalence to the prevailing climate of true tropical points closer to the equator. I doubt this dot in Louisiana actually exists as a viable microclimate, but I have little doubt that a robust zone 10a climate could exist that far north. If a ridge of 14,000' mountains were to rise in an east-to-west direction from Oklahoma to NC, I have zero doubt that Gulf of Mexico islands as far north as Louisiana would be solid 10a climates and would have enough winter heat to grow coconuts.

 I was just making the point that Homestead, Florida, or similar locations in extreme inland South Florida is far more of a natural zone 10a (with no topographical influences) than that dot of land in the Louisiana delta region that shows as zone 10a (where the topographical influence is water) -- and that the former has far more average heat. than the latter (Louisiana).  

I would also submit that if the peninsula of Florida were 100s or miles longer towards the equator, an inland 10b location would have more overall heat than your island, as the Atlantic in Intercoastal or river water absorbs more daytime winter heat.  I think the proof of the pudding would be to consult climate information, say from a 10a/b Ocean influenced location to that of a 10a/b inland flat land location.

Further, if that dot of area in Louisiana is  USDA rated 10a -- and Lake Placid, Florida, is rated 9b -- then how does the USDA explain all the coconut palms growing here -- and none up in Louisiana?

It's explained by topographical features such as large bodies of relatively warm water and elevation relative to the surrounding, lower land.

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Walt
6 hours ago, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

That's exactly it Walt.  We see the same thing here all the time.  The official daily temps are taken at National Airport (DCA)  for DC itself.  (DCA is actually in the commonwealth of Virginia)   They're always off by a good 4°-8° F, even sometimes more.  The reasons for this is that DCA is literally built out into the river quite a bit.   It's at it's most noticeable during spring and fall but lasts through the winter as well.  There are days in winter that get warm (60s- 70s sometimes 80s) when the surrounding temps reflect that.  At the same time places like DCA or Annapolis will stay in the upper 50s to low 60s because of the cold water.   It's the opposite at night.  Those ares will stay substantially warmer than just a mile away.  I'm sure you are familiar with the long standing arguments that happen about the official weather measurements being taken at DCA, and their terrible accuracy in relation to even very close surrounding areas.  They can't even seem to measure snow right.  There was a big scandal about that last year during our big blizzard  when everywhere got on the order of 26-32".  DCA measured a paltry 17" while less than a mile away 26-28" was common.  

Anyway, maybe someone can get on a boat and drop a dozen coconuts on shore or as far in as they can get and see what happens.  Haha. That will be the ultimate test.  My guess is that they would not make it long term.   

The island of Bermuda is totally influenced by water (Gulf Stream). No way would coconuts flourish at that latitude on mainland USA. The problem for Bermuda is during the winter months when the air is cool (not cold). I think the difference between daytime and nighttime wintertime temperatures vary less than 10 degrees, even less. If I recall, typical daytime temperatures are around 65 degrees and 55 degrees at night.

Like I said in a post here, I had relatives that lived in Reedville, Va., right on the Chesapeake Bay. Their average last frost date was often in December due to the bay water still being relatively warm. But as winter progressed and the water turned cold, sometimes even freezing over, spring warm up was delayed near the bay. I recall standing maybe 50 feet or less from the water in early spring and you could actually feel the coldness of the bay as it pulled heat from your body. It was very discernable.

Midway Island in the north Pacific lie farther north than Melbourne, Florida, or Tampa Florida -- yet the lowest temperature ever recorded was 54 degrees! Lots of coconut palms there. I made this post back in 2009: http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/18760-midway-atoll-28-°-12-north/#comment-313940

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DCA_Palm_Fan
1 hour ago, Walt said:

The island of Bermuda is totally influenced by water (Gulf Stream). No way would coconuts flourish at that latitude on mainland USA. The problem for Bermuda is during the winter months when the air is cool (not cold). I think the difference between daytime and nighttime wintertime temperatures vary less than 10 degrees, even less. If I recall, typical daytime temperatures are around 65 degrees and 55 degrees at night.

Like I said in a post here, I had relatives that lived in Reedville, Va., right on the Chesapeake Bay. Their average last frost date was often in December due to the bay water still being relatively warm. But as winter progressed and the water turned cold, sometimes even freezing over, spring warm up was delayed near the bay. I recall standing maybe 50 feet or less from the water in early spring and you could actually feel the coldness of the bay as it pulled heat from your body. It was very discernable.

Midway Island in the north Pacific lie farther north than Melbourne, Florida, or Tampa Florida -- yet the lowest temperature ever recorded was 54 degrees! Lots of coconut palms there. I made this post back in 2009: http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/18760-midway-atoll-28-°-12-north/#comment-313940

Yeah.  I've experienced it myself.  Annapolis. Solomons.  Any place around the bay or wider tidal Potomac.  As you know we can go from freezing to 70s or even low 80s in less than a day or two.  I've seen many days where it's almost hot, until you get close to that water, especially if it still has chunks of ice in it.   The o lu time he temps in those places are fairly even with those a bit inland is when the water freezes substantially and a good distance from shore.   Then you lose the water's influence.   It's amazing what water can do ans how much it affects what's even just nearby.  

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RedRabbit
7 hours ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

Our island in Central Florida actually averages out to a weak 10b over the past 60 years 

Yep, I've got Patrick AFB at 36.31f since 2000. :greenthumb:

 

I agree that topography shouldn't be a consideration, at the end of the day it is either warm or cold. Louisiana isn't even far north for 10a, there are plenty of zone 11 locations along the Mediterranean which is much further north.  

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Yunder Wækraus
6 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Yep, I've got Patrick AFB at 36.31f since 2000. :greenthumb:

 

I agree that topography shouldn't be a consideration, at the end of the day it is either warm or cold. Louisiana isn't even far north for 10a, there are plenty of zone 11 locations along the Mediterranean which is much further north.  

Amen

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NorCalKing

Even if it is 10A it will never support growing coconuts. Just ask the 10A people in SF.

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Yunder Wækraus
5 hours ago, NorCalKing said:

Even if it is 10A it will never support growing coconuts. Just ask the 10A people in SF.

? South Louisiana is hardly SF! SF is a place that should be frigid, but  the ocean and bay keep it trapped at perpetually cool. Louisiana is a place that should be warm year round, but a lack of protective mountains allows arctic air to make it cool and even cold in the winter. 

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Walt
On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2016‎ ‎4‎:‎15‎:‎52‎, Yunder Wækraus said:

Our island in Central Florida actually averages out to a weak 10b over the past 60 years (as Zeeth recently told me), and I know for a fact that there are parts of Florida more than 100 miles south that aren't even a 10a over the same period of time. I just don't understand the claim that the topographical basis for a microclimate might somehow negate its equivalence to the prevailing climate of true tropical points closer to the equator. I doubt this dot in Louisiana actually exists as a viable microclimate, but I have little doubt that a robust zone 10a climate could exist that far north. If a ridge of 14,000' mountains were to rise in an east-to-west direction from Oklahoma to NC, I have zero doubt that Gulf of Mexico islands as far north as Louisiana would be solid 10a climates and would have enough winter heat to grow coconuts.

Re: I just don't understand the claim that the topographical basis for a microclimate might somehow negate its equivalence to the prevailing climate of true tropical points closer to the equator.

I made no such claim. What I said is that I felt (i.e., my opinion) a true zone 10a location is one that isn't influenced by topographical features. Such a location (in the northern hemisphere) would obviously be farther south in latitude than a water and/or elevational influenced location farther north in latitude.

I wasn't implying that a true (non water/elevational influenced) zone 10a location doesn't necessarily mean tropical plants can grow better there than at a location farther north, but whose location is thermally influenced by topographical features such as large bodies of water and elevation.  And I'm only talking about east coast (Florida and Louisiana) 10a locations, not California (that's apples and oranges). 

My point, again, is that a given zone 10a location that is dependent on water for it's rating will probably have less overall heating (in a 24 hour period each day of the winter) the further into winter when the water starts cooling down (vis a vis a non water influenced 10a location), as is surely the case with that dot of area up in Louisiana.

While that location in Louisiana may not fall below 30 degrees at night, I guarantee the daytime highs are much lower as compared to an inland Florida zone 10a location (say in deep inland Dade, Broward, Palm Beach,Collier counties) hence, far less overall heat -- and why a coconut palm would most likely never make it there through an average winter.

Further, during the height of the winter months, locations closer to the equator have more direct sun rays (stronger short wave energy), plus the short waves travel through less atmosphere, whereas points farther north, the sun's rays are more oblique and travel through more atmosphere, that blocks more short wave radiation from reaching the earth (this isn't a major factor, but is a contributing factor nevertheless).

During the winter months there's more sun radiation in inland south Florida 10a locations than that area up in the 10a Louisiana location (all other conditions being equal, such as cloud cover, rain, fog, etc. that cuts down on radiation). This can be verified and confirmed by consulting heating degree day charts for various locations (cities) in Florida and locations in southern Louisiana.

 

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Yunder Wækraus
6 minutes ago, Walt said:

Re: I just don't understand the claim that the topographical basis for a microclimate might somehow negate its equivalence to the prevailing climate of true tropical points closer to the equator.

I made no such claim. What I said is that I felt (i.e., my opinion) a true zone 10a location is one that isn't influenced by topographical features. Such a location (in the northern hemisphere) would obviously be farther south in latitude than a water and/or elevational influenced location farther north in latitude.

I wasn't implying that a true (non water/elevational influenced) zone 10a location doesn't necessarily mean tropical plants can grow better there than at a location farther north, but whose location is thermally influenced by topographical features such as large bodies of water and elevation.  And I'm only talking about east coast (Florida and Louisiana) 10a locations, not California (that's apples and oranges). 

My point, again, is that a given zone 10a location that is dependent on water for it's rating will probably have less overall heating (in a 24 hour period each day of the winter) the further into winter when the water starts cooling down (vis a vis a non water influenced 10a location), as is surely the case with that dot of area up in Louisiana.

While that location in Louisiana may not fall below 30 degrees at night, I guarantee the daytime highs are much lower as compared to an inland Florida zone 10a location (say in deep inland Dade, Broward, Palm Beach,Collier counties) hence, far less overall heat -- and why a coconut palm would most likely never make it there through an average winter.

Further, during the height of the winter months, locations closer to the equator have more direct sun rays (stronger short wave energy), plus the short waves travel through less atmosphere, whereas points farther north, the sun's rays are more oblique and travel through more atmosphere, that blocks more short wave radiation from reaching the earth (this isn't a major factor, but is a contributing factor nevertheless).

During the winter months there's more sun radiation in inland south Florida 10a locations than that area up in the 10a Louisiana location (all other conditions being equal, such as cloud cover, rain, fog, etc. that cuts down on radiation). This can be verified and confirmed by consulting heating degree day charts for various locations (cities) in Florida and locations in southern Louisiana.

 

I understood you well. Perhaps you didn't think through the exact meaning of some of what you said. You used the phrase "true zone 10a" without defining it. I assume you believe that a "true" zone exists only within an area unaffected by topographical features. But it's hard to understand how such a criterion could be justified. What makes a zone 10a in the tropics (where such a zone would be unusually cold!) more "true" than one in the subtropics (where such a cold zone is to be expected)?

And then this: "My point, again, is that a given zone 10a location that is dependent on water for it's rating will probably have less overall heating (in a 24 hour period each day of the winter) the further into winter when the water starts cooling down (vis a vis a non water influenced 10a location), as is surely the case with that dot of area up in Louisiana."

This point is what really makes no sense. I understand that in the context of this non-existent 10a spot in Louisiana you believe that water temperatures will eventually drop too low to moderate winter temperatures. I don't know that area well, so I'll accept that as the truth. However, the idea that ALL (or even MOST) 10a climates which rely on adjacent bodies of water are fated to be less warm because of the water is just not true. Our island is a weak 10b solely because of the water around it, and that water never turns into a liability (even as it cools).

I would imagine that virtually all "true" 10a zones are found outside of the tropics and adjacent to water or within the tropics and and higher elevations. If you discover a false 10a, I'm sure we'd all be interested to hear about it ;-)

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_Keith

There is no 10a long term in Louisiana.   

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GottmitAlex
9 minutes ago, _Keith said:

There is no 10a long term in Louisiana.   

The same can be said of California. 

Technically, there are 10a, 10b and 11a spots in California, but the weather stays in its respective low zone limits for the longest time.

So it is true that it will never freeze in zones 10b and 11a in California. But the temps in wintertime are knocking at their lowest zone- limit threshold door for a while.

I am still stunned and beside myself thinking about the Corona Coconut (CA 9B Zone). 

 

 

 

Edited by GottmitAlex
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Walt
2 hours ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

I understood you well. Perhaps you didn't think through the exact meaning of some of what you said. You used the phrase "true zone 10a" without defining it. I assume you believe that a "true" zone exists only within an area unaffected by topographical features. But it's hard to understand how such a criterion could be justified. What makes a zone 10a in the tropics (where such a zone would be unusually cold!) more "true" than one in the subtropics (where such a cold zone is to be expected)?

And then this: "My point, again, is that a given zone 10a location that is dependent on water for it's rating will probably have less overall heating (in a 24 hour period each day of the winter) the further into winter when the water starts cooling down (vis a vis a non water influenced 10a location), as is surely the case with that dot of area up in Louisiana."

This point is what really makes no sense. I understand that in the context of this non-existent 10a spot in Louisiana you believe that water temperatures will eventually drop too low to moderate winter temperatures. I don't know that area well, so I'll accept that as the truth. However, the idea that ALL (or even MOST) 10a climates which rely on adjacent bodies of water are fated to be less warm because of the water is just not true. Our island is a weak 10b solely because of the water around it, and that water never turns into a liability (even as it cools).

I would imagine that virtually all "true" 10a zones are found outside of the tropics and adjacent to water or within the tropics and and higher elevations. If you discover a false 10a, I'm sure we'd all be interested to hear about it ;-)

You say: "You used the phrase "'true zone 10a' without defining it." 

I most certainly defined it very specifically in my initial post. It's stated verbatim in italics below. What don't you understand?

Re: IMO, a true zone 10a climate (and probably the best with respect to growing coconut palms) is one that has no topographical influences, such as water (ocean, Gulf), elevation, urban heat island effect, etc.. It's farther longitudinal location towards the equator is basically responsible for it's 10a climate -- and not topographical influencing features.

IMO, a true zone 10a climate, at least in Florida, would be more like an area of Homestead or some point inland in a remote area without any influences as stated above.  Such an area would have a higher average temperature and higher daytime temperatures with probably the maximum temperature swing from low to high.

Conversely, a zone 10a location at a much higher latitude, but next to a large water body, would have lower average (wintertime) temperatures due to the water. The water would help hold the low temperatures up, but it would also hold daytime temperatures down as the water absorbed heat from the air and direct radiation from the sun, especially if the wind is coming off the water. The temperature swing from low to high would span less in degrees.

So, the upshot here is, no way would a 10a location up in Louisiana delta area be comparable to a 10a location in inland south Florida, with respect to the average heat a coconut palm needs to sustain itself. Even though an area has a zone 10a USDA rating, unless it has the adequate wintertime heat (air and soil temperature) coconut palms probably wouldn't make it there.

The point of my post was to point out and differentiate the difference (with respect to overall daily heat in the winter months) that all zone 10a  aren't necessarily equal, at least with respect to the minimum amount of wintertime heat required to support coconut palm growth.

You say: However, the idea that ALL (or even MOST) 10a climates which rely on adjacent bodies of water are fated to be less warm because of the water is just not true. Our island is a weak 10b solely because of the water around it, and that water never turns into a liability (even as it cools).

Water has a great heat capacity, and that is what helps hold up nighttime air temperatures at locations in proximity of it. But as the winter progresses the water cools down, and under the "SAME" cold front conditions (all other factors being equal) the surrounding air temperatures will also drop accordingly. That's just a scientific fact of physics -- not my opinion.

A cold front in early December will be less cold (in locations in proximity to the ocean/Gulf, lake, etc.) than the exact same cold front in late January, as by then the water will be colder; hence it will have less heat to give up to warm the air of the surrounding land. That doesn't necessarily translate into a liability (your words), it just means the land will be colder, but still warm enough to maintain the zone rating. Your island in November may be 12b and 12a in December. By the coldest part of winter it will finally get down to 10a/b -- and yes, because of the water.

But it's obvious to me you have missed my point. And that point is, for a third time, is that I believe a 10a location that has only solar radiation to sustain its 10a rating, as opposed to a location that relies on not just on solar radiation, but also a body of relatively warm water to hold up nighttime temperatures has, overall, a lower average daily temperature, along with lower daytime high temperatures.

The inland 10a location must have higher daytime temperatures (thus more overall average heat) so that the soil and flora have enough heat to give off at night in order to not drop below 30 degrees (zone 10a). This location has no thermal influencing features, such as an ocean, to benefit from the heat radiated from the water at night.

Everything else, and all the hypothetical stuff you've introduced into this thread is not germane and is irrelevant to what I posited. I'm only talking about total heat (average daily temperatures) at any given location based on topographical features or lack of them -- not what could be if there was a mountain range to block arctic air, etc.

Again, find an inland Florida location that is rated 10a and compare that to a coastal 10a location. Then Google the two locations and find out how many heating degree days each location has during the month of January. Dollars to donuts the inland location will have significantly less heating degree days -- which indicates that location is warmer overall (has more hours over 65 degrees F). Also, that inland location will probably be 150 miles farther south in latitude than the coastal location. That's the kind of latitude difference it will take to over come the lack of benefit from a large body of water.

That's basically similar to the reason that on the coldest raditional nights of the year, the town of Lake Placid, Florida, is warmer than low ground inland locations 75-100 miles south. It's due to elevation, that the town is enjoying warmer air in the inversion layer. Lake Placid (the town) is zone 10a/b, but it's not a "true" 10a/b (my subjective rating) because its elevation that allows for the rating. I'm just down off the hill from town and I'm 9b -- a true 9b (no thermal or elevation influences).

Figure 2 at the below link illustrates the air inversion layer -- for your edification.

https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/frostfreeze-protection-for-horticultural-crops

.

 

 

 

 

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RedRabbit
4 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

The same can be said of California. 

Technically, there are 10a, 10b and 11a spots in California, but the weather stays in its respective low zone limits for the longest time.

So it is true that it will never freeze in zones 10b and 11a in California. But the temps in wintertime are knocking at their lowest zone- limit threshold door for a while.

I am still stunned and beside myself thinking about the Corona Coconut (CA 9B Zone). 

 

 

 

Wow, it manages to not only survive in CA but 9B?!?

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GottmitAlex
5 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

Wow, it manages to not only survive in CA but 9B?!?

Officially, denoted by the the Hardiness map a 9B.

 

But in reality it does get down to 20F. So should be a 9A Zone.

https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KAJO/2014/11/30/CustomHistory.html?dayend=1&monthend=1&yearend=2016&req_city=&req_state=&req_statename=&reqdb.zip=&reqdb.magic=&reqdb.wmo=

 

Edited by GottmitAlex
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RedRabbit
4 hours ago, _Keith said:

There is no 10a long term in Louisiana.   

Nowhere inhabitable at least... Even if that tiny spot is zone 12 it really makes no difference since it is barren land fully removed from civilization. For all intents and purposes it might as well just be the Gulf of Mexico. LOL

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Walt

It may soon be academic what type (natural/true, water assisted, elevation assisted, urban heat island assisted, and all combinations of same) of zone 10 climate area one lives in. I just hope the forecasts are wrong. The new Little Ice Age as already begun!

 

Cold Records are going to be SHATTERED!

http://www.climatedepot.com/2016/11/30/climatologist-dr-roger-pielke-sr-i-cannot-recall-last-time-i-have-seen-such-a-cold-anomaly-forecast-across-almost-entire-usa/

Record cold coming to ‘almost entire USA’ – Low temperature records set to be SHATTERED

http://www.climatedepot.com/2016/11/30/climatologist-dr-roger-pielke-sr-i-cannot-recall-last-time-i-have-seen-such-a-cold-anomaly-forecast-across-almost-entire-usa/

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Yunder Wækraus
14 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

The same can be said of California. 

Technically, there are 10a, 10b and 11a spots in California, but the weather stays in its respective low zone limits for the longest time.

So it is true that it will never freeze in zones 10b and 11a in California. But the temps in wintertime are knocking at their lowest zone- limit threshold door for a while.

I am still stunned and beside myself thinking about the Corona Coconut (CA 9B Zone). 

 

 

 

But it's important to remember that CA and southern Louisiana are quite different. Southern Louisiana is quite a bit further south that San Diego, and it borders on a body of water that is extremely warm during the summer (the Gulf of Mexico average temp never drops below 60 at Grand Isle, Louisiana https://www.nodc.noaa.gov/dsdt/cwtg/egof.html ). Louisiana would probably be 11a at the coast and 10a well inland if only the South were protected from arctic blasts by a ring of mountains. CA, on the other hand, is bordered by a very cold ocean (average temps get as low as 59 in San Diego, and they never approach 70 even in the summer https://www.nodc.noaa.gov/dsdt/cwtg/spac.html ). CA is protected from arctic blasts by high mountains, and the cold Pacific moderates things enough to avoid coastal freezes. Inland Southern CA is probably as warm as can be. I doubt even a warm water current running along the coast of Southern California would increase what could be grown there. Louisiana, however, is performing far below its potential. If only the earth would get with the program and give the South some taller mountains (and place them east to west) :-)

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Yunder Wækraus
10 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Nowhere inhabitable at least... Even if that tiny spot is zone 12 it really makes no difference since it is barren land fully removed from civilization. For all intents and purposes it might as well just be the Gulf of Mexico. LOL

I wonder what would happen if someone were to create an artificial island in shallow Gulf of Mexico waters off the cast of Louisiana. Perhaps a 10a garden could be made at the minimal cost of a few billion dollars :-)

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pin38
On ‎11‎/‎22‎/‎2016‎ ‎5‎:‎39‎:‎06‎, Walt said:

IMO, a true zone 10a climate (and probably the best with respect to growing coconut palms) is one that has no topographical influences, such as water (ocean, Gulf), elevation, urban heat island effect, etc.. It's farther longitudinal location towards the equator is basically responsible for it's 10a climate -- and not topographical influencing features.

IMO, a true zone 10a climate, at least in Florida, would be more like an area of Homestead or some point inland in a remote area without any influences as stated above.  Such an area would have a higher average temperature and higher daytime temperatures with probably the maximum temperature swing from low to high.

Conversely, a zone 10a location at a much higher latitude, but next to a large water body, would have lower average (wintertime) temperatures due to the water. The water would help hold the low temperatures up, but it would also hold daytime temperatures down as the water absorbed heat from the air and direct radiation from the sun, especially if the wind is coming off the water. The temperature swing from low to high would span less in degrees.

So, the upshot here is, no way would a 10a location up in Louisiana delta area be comparable to a 10a location in inland south Florida, with respect to the average heat a coconut palm needs to sustain itself. Even though an area has a zone 10a USDA rating, unless it has the adequate wintertime heat (air and soil temperature) coconut palms probably wouldn't make it there.

 

 

 

Walt, I get the gist of what you're saying but disagree on the effects of surrounding ocean on what zone you are (including a "tropical" zone for coconuts).  How would you explain Bermuda then? It's on the same latitude as South Carolina and they have coconut palms there.

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_Keith
On 12/1/2016, 9:10:28, Yunder Wækraus said:

But it's important to remember that CA and southern Louisiana are quite different. Southern Louisiana is quite a bit further south that San Diego, and it borders on a body of water that is extremely warm during the summer (the Gulf of Mexico average temp never drops below 60 at Grand Isle, Louisiana https://www.nodc.noaa.gov/dsdt/cwtg/egof.html ). Louisiana would probably be 11a at the coast and 10a well inland if only the South were protected from arctic blasts by a ring of mountains. CA, on the other hand, is bordered by a very cold ocean (average temps get as low as 59 in San Diego, and they never approach 70 even in the summer https://www.nodc.noaa.gov/dsdt/cwtg/spac.html ). CA is protected from arctic blasts by high mountains, and the cold Pacific moderates things enough to avoid coastal freezes. Inland Southern CA is probably as warm as can be. I doubt even a warm water current running along the coast of Southern California would increase what could be grown there. Louisiana, however, is performing far below its potential. If only the earth would get with the program and give the South some taller mountains (and place them east to west) :-)

You are on the money.  When the arctic dips down the central US we are usually at the tip of the dip.   And we have more than one a year, most years.  A few years we have none.   On a normal year, with the exception of maybe 5 nights, we are a solid 10a.   Some years more, and some like the last 2 years, which were solid 10a years.  And the year before those 2 we dipped near 8b.   Another factor is that our cold is always wet, which is why things that are solid in 9a west, die here in 9a south.   We are getting our first winter rains right now.   We went straight from months of no rain to 6 inches in the last 2 days and it is still raining.   The soils will be wet and soggy till March when the spring drought returns, maybe.   You see with those last 2 years of warm winters, we had no spring dry out as is normal.   It kept on raining till mid summer, and then off like a spigot.  Louisiana, like much of the northern gulf coast is just a weather roller coaster with an ever changing track.

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PalmTreeDude
3 hours ago, _Keith said:

You are on the money.  When the arctic dips down the central US we are usually at the tip of the dip.   And we have more than one a year, most years.  A few years we have none.   On a normal year, with the exception of maybe 5 nights, we are a solid 10a.   Some years more, and some like the last 2 years, which were solid 10a years.  And the year before those 2 we dipped near 8b.   Another factor is that our cold is always wet, which is why things that are solid in 9a west, die here in 9a south.   We are getting our first winter rains right now.   We went straight from months of no rain to 6 inches in the last 2 days and it is still raining.   The soils will be wet and soggy till March when the spring drought returns, maybe.   You see with those last 2 years of warm winters, we had no spring dry out as is normal.   It kept on raining till mid summer, and then off like a spigot.  Louisiana, like much of the northern gulf coast is just a weather roller coaster with an ever changing track.

It is raining now in VA, it dipped down to 31 so far! All palms in my yard are unprotected and good so far. Let's see how far I can get them.

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_Keith
6 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Royals? :rolleyes:

hahahaha.   

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AnTonY
On 11/30/2016, 3:03:53, Yunder Wækraus said:

? South Louisiana is hardly SF! SF is a place that should be frigid, but  the ocean and bay keep it trapped at perpetually cool. Louisiana is a place that should be warm year round, but a lack of protective mountains allows arctic air to make it cool and even cold in the winter. 

Exactly, imagine how tropical the South would have been had the North American continent had some protective factor: mountains, huge water bodies, replacement of much of Canada with open ocean (most ideal form of protection). I've checked temps for places like NOLA, H-Town, etc; these cities can see lows near 70F, even in the middle of January. Now think about the fact that those are the types of lows that would be constant experience if the cold-fronts were removed from the equation; H-Town, NOLA, even Myrtle Beach would be having full blown tropical climates.

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Xerarch

Just compare Houston to somewhere like say, Brisbane, Australia, Brisbane sits at a fairly comparable latitude in the Southern Hemisphere, and Australia does have that nice ocean the south instead of landmass all the way to the South Pole. The record low in Brisbane is right around 32 degrees.  That is the climate that Houston "should" have. Or at least the climate it coulda woulda shoulda had if things to the north were different. 

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AnTonY
3 hours ago, Xerarch said:

Just compare Houston to somewhere like say, Brisbane, Australia, Brisbane sits at a fairly comparable latitude in the Southern Hemisphere, and Australia does have that nice ocean the south instead of landmass all the way to the South Pole. The record low in Brisbane is right around 32 degrees.  That is the climate that Houston "should" have. Or at least the climate it coulda woulda shoulda had if things to the north were different. 

Brisbane is a bit closer to the equator than Houston is, around the latitude of Corpus and Tampa. Match-to-match, Durban in South Africa is exactly at Houston's latitude; it's record low is above freezing:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durban

But yes, the point still stands regardless. Overall, I admit that I am salty, when the only thing keeping Houston, New Orleans, etc, from cultivating cool tropicals comes down, like what, once a year at most? The only solutions are as follows:

-  Convince Donald Trump to build the wall along northern Canada, and super-size it Game-of-Thrones style.

- Advance genetic technology, so that tropicals can be spliced with "anti-freeze" genes.

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Desert DAC
On 10/31/2016, 12:54:53, pin38 said:

That interactive map's got some goofy quirks, though they are interesting and fun to look for.  It has a couple pixels of 9b on a mountain side in southern New Mexico, a couple squares of 8a on the Oregon border in Idaho.  It's like a climate nerd's Easter egg hunt.  I've looked for zone 8 in Colorado, nothing so far...

I found many inconsistencies like you note, like z 9a and 8b covering the Organ and Franklin Mtns by me...their crests are 3000'-5000' higher elevation than the desert valleys only 10 miles away, so thermal belts at the base would reverse and cool, like physics does and as shown on other mountains nearby. Same thing in all the SW. I also think they miss obvious 8a in the ABQ heights, and several miles of obvious 9a in central El Paso, Austin, and so on.

Edited by Desert DAC

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