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Tropicdoc

parajubaea torallyi in the gulf south

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Tropicdoc

Who's got one? What are the differences in variant torallyi vs microcarpa?

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Cikas

Microcarpa is even less tolerant to humid conditions.

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_Keith

I had 3 strap leaves on the ground on 2010 that made through the freeze. Lost them for other reason. I am convinced that larger specimens in the right spot would make it.

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GarrettP1

I have one; still young.

Purchased it off ebay, grew it in a pot for almost 2 years, and then in the ground for about 18 months now.

It made it through 18 degrees F this winter, with just an incandescent light to provide heat during nights in the low 20's.

I've heard far more people tell me it won't thrive or survive here (Florida panhandle) than I've heard optimism about it.

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Ben in Norcal

I have read sunkha is most tolerant to humidity.

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SailorBold

Is there a particular province that will have a hardier ecotype parajubaea? I was reading some stuff about frequent cold snaps that these palms endure yearly. to 20f or something like that.

It makes me rethink the BxPJ hybrid as an option for my area or even one of these palms.. are they leaf hardy at all? I wonder how it will take dry cold.

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Ben in Norcal

How cold do you usually get annually, Jimmy? I'd think they can take more dry cold, than wet.

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DoomsDave

Torallyi torallyi gets HUGE, like 4 FEET across the trunk.

Macro and sunkha are a lot smaller, like about 1/4 that size, width wise.

Tor tor has great edible palm heart, if you make a placement mistake . . . . :)

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SailorBold

How cold do you usually get annually, Jimmy? I'd think they can take more dry cold, than wet.

Its all across the board.. typically above 10f. Its on the cusp of exactly where filiferas get foliar damage.. On a limb I would say 12-14f is about right for my neighborhood. The 25 year average at our airport is 10F and that includes arctic freezes- so on a zone map they put us in 7b.

The leaf hardiness is important to me- butia/jubaea show no damage from it- so far.

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DoomsDave

Hmm.

That's an interesting question. Bet any Jube hybrid would work, or at least worth a try.

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Ben in Norcal

Might want to try BxP, though most the hybrids I am aware of are PJc which is the least hardy of the genus.

I'd get a 5g pure PJs and see...no way to know but to try.

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Sandy Loam

Tropicdoc, I have pretty much the same climate as you (northern Gulf of Mexico coast) and can grow Parajubaea Torallyi var. Torallyi and Parajubaea Sunkha but not Parajubaea Microcarpa. Unfortunately, I planted the Torallyii var. Torallyi in a place where it is too crowded to grow a 4 foot wide trunk, but I don't want to move it now because it is happy where it is (now becoming pinnate and growing floppy long fronds). All of my parajubaeas have been in the ground for 2 or 3 years and have endured the same summer heat/humidity that you endure in your location. Torallyi and Sunkha can tolerate the humidity, it seems. Microcarpa could not tolerate my humidity and died. It was obviously because of the humidity and heat because that Microcarpa grew quite vigorously -- much faster than the others -- and then around August 31 it just suddenly perished.

Sunka is tough because it suffered for a long time in a 100% full shade location and it still lived, despite my stupidity planting it there. It didn't grow at all in the shade, but it did stay alive. It is also tough because I have literally transplanted it 3 or 4 times, damaging the roots significantly each time, and it has adapted to its new spot in the ground with each move. It is a shame that we can't grow P. Microcarpa because it is the nicest looking parajubaea of the three, in my opinion. I find it be even more attractive than parajubaea coccoides.

They have only been in ground for 3 years, but my results are good so far and should be fine for you too. None of my parajubaeas have ever suffered any cold damage in winter. They are all still small, so only the long term will tell what their true viability is in a climate like ours. Unless you experience a night of 18 degrees Fahrenheit or lower, I wouldn't even bother throwing a blanket over them. (Someone on this forum will disagree with me, I'm sure)

By the way, my torally var. torallyi is deliberately planted in shade with an hour or less of sun each day. This is not an ideal location, but I did it this way because I didn't want them to get too hot in the summer. The PTVT has been surprisingly shade-tolerant and continues to grow in the shade, unlike Sunkha which was stalled there. I would therefore suggest doing the same with your PTVT (not 100% shade, but partial shade) and they should get through summer fine. I probably would not plant a parajubaea much further south because I suspect that they need a real nightly cool-down in the summer if planted in such a humid climate like ours -- e.g. perhaps not worth trying in Tampa, Florida or Brownsville, Texas, but this is just my speculation.

My only other recommendation is to plant them on a slope so that water will drain away from your parajubaeas.

Others may disagree with me on this forum. These are just my own experiences/experiments.

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SailorBold

Hmm.

That's an interesting question. Bet any Jube hybrid would work, or at least worth a try.

Yeah for sure.. Much respect for these guys that create them.. and unheard of in NM. I have high hopes for these palms performance.

Might want to try BxP, though most the hybrids I am aware of are PJc which is the least hardy of the genus.

I'd get a 5g pure PJs and see...no way to know but to try.

Im leaning towards the hybrid also...going to try some mule palms starting this season and a JXS to start but the beauty of Patrics hybrids Im just in awe.. I need acreage...

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Ben in Norcal

Can't comment on cold hardiness, but can verify that P TvT and Ps have no issue with many consecutive days of 100+ degrees. Then again, my night time temperatures on those days do fall into the 60s. I gather the cooler nights are appreciated.

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SailorBold

Can't comment on cold hardiness, but can verify that P TvT and Ps have no issue with many consecutive days of 100+ degrees. Then again, my night time temperatures on those days do fall into the 60s. I gather the cooler nights are appreciated.

That's where I am trying to see exactly what it will tolerate... The altitude is one thing.. UV another... and the dry cold points this palm to a thumbs up.... I am gathering this palm is from the highest elevation of anywhere in the world.. That's an impressive claim!!! 9000'+ How high do they go..

I need to go on a palm safari

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SailorBold

Tropicdoc, I have pretty much the same climate as you (northern Gulf of Mexico coast) and can grow Parajubaea Torallyi var. Torallyi and Parajubaea Sunkha but not Parajubaea Microcarpa. Unfortunately, I planted the Torallyii var. Torallyi in a place where it is too crowded to grow a 4 foot wide trunk, but I don't want to move it now because it is happy where it is (now becoming pinnate and growing floppy long fronds). All of my parajubaeas have been in the ground for 2 or 3 years and have endured the same summer heat/humidity that you endure in your location. Torallyi and Sunkha can tolerate the humidity, it seems. Microcarpa could not tolerate my humidity and died. It was obviously because of the humidity and heat because that Microcarpa grew quite vigorously -- much faster than the others -- and then around August 31 it just suddenly perished.

Sunka is tough because it suffered for a long time in a 100% full shade location and it still lived, despite my stupidity planting it there. It didn't grow at all in the shade, but it did stay alive. It is also tough because I have literally transplanted it 3 or 4 times, damaging the roots significantly each time, and it has adapted to its new spot in the ground with each move. It is a shame that we can't grow P. Microcarpa because it is the nicest looking parajubaea of the three, in my opinion. I find it be even more attractive than parajubaea coccoides.

They have only been in ground for 3 years, but my results are good so far and should be fine for you too. None of my parajubaeas have ever suffered any cold damage in winter. They are all still small, so only the long term will tell what their true viability is in a climate like ours. Unless you experience a night of 18 degrees Fahrenheit or lower, I wouldn't even bother throwing a blanket over them. (Someone on this forum will disagree with me, I'm sure)

By the way, my torally var. torallyi is deliberately planted in shade with an hour or less of sun each day. This is not an ideal location, but I did it this way because I didn't want them to get too hot in the summer. The PTVT has been surprisingly shade-tolerant and continues to grow in the shade, unlike Sunkha which was stalled there. I would therefore suggest doing the same with your PTVT (not 100% shade, but partial shade) and they should get through summer fine. I probably would not plant a parajubaea much further south because I suspect that they need a real nightly cool-down in the summer if planted in such a humid climate like ours -- e.g. perhaps not worth trying in Tampa, Florida or Brownsville, Texas, but this is just my speculation.

My only other recommendation is to plant them on a slope so that water will drain away from your parajubaeas.

Others may disagree with me on this forum. These are just my own experiences/experiments.

Hey do you have a pic of your parajubaea?

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Sandy Loam

Sure. I am out of town at the moment, but I will try to remember when I get back.

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OC2Texaspalmlvr

@Sandy Loam How are you PJ's doing ? Any pics of them if there still kicking ? Im really tempted to try them but my biggest concerns is our wet winters =/ Maybe the Patric hybrids would be the better choice but significantly more expensive haha. I tried a var microcarpa but its first winter saw 20° w/ freezing rain =/ The humidity didnt seem to bother it , small sample size of data tho. 

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Sandy Loam

Hello OC2TexasPalmLvr.  My Parajubaeas are all either dead or given away now.  I just don't think they liked my hot, humid, wet summer climate and they were planted in too much shade.  Cold was not the problem.  They seem to have no problem handling the northern Florida cold winter nights, although if you are way up in freezing Dallas, I would not try one there. I am not sure which part of Texas you are located in, but Parajubaea (not cocoides, but sunkha, totallyii , tor-v-tor, and microcarpa) should be cold-hardy in Houston and anywhere else along the Gulf of Mexico coast from Galveston down to Brownsville, then west as far as Laredo or even farther. They might be cold-hardy in San Antonio too, but perhaps Austin is borderline.  I would not chance it anywhere in western Texas though.  Mine never suffered any cold-damage, but I don't live in El Paso.  Probably the soil and dryness of El Paso would be appreciated by a Parajubaea, but it is presumably too cold there.

 

I just think parajubaeas would do better in a dry climate (and well-draining, dry-ish, granular soil) and in a location that is pretty sunny.   I am fairly convinced that parajubaeas don't like Florida anyway.  Maybe others have had a better experience than me, but the real proof is whether they can show photos of actually trunking parajubaeas anywhere in the eastern 2/3 of the US ---and that includes Texas.  I would be surprised if any existed.  There are plenty in California, but not here.

 

I have one of Patric Schaeffer's Parajubaea hybrids too.  It is a Butia Odorata "mutt" x Parajubaea Cocoides (B x PJC).  It looks healthy, but it simply will not grow much for me.  After a year, I transplanted it out into a sunnier spot, but it still will not grow.  Some palms simply do not thrive in high-humidity climates with a lot of summer rain.   If you are located in a humid region of Texas (like Houston), I would not bother with a B x PJC because it might not grow for you there either.   The only reason I bought one was because of the lightning speed that Californians reported for that hybrid.   What grows quickly in California sometimes grows slowly in Florida, and vice versa.

 

I have other hybrids too, but that is my only one with Parajubaea in it.  

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krishnaraoji88

My sunkha in Ocala is still growing well but no trunk yet

Also just as a side note it took my B x Pj almost 3 years to acclimate and now it’s growing really well. It’s at trunking size. I think there are pics in another thread from last may

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OC2Texaspalmlvr
6 minutes ago, Sandy Loam said:

Hello OC2TexasPalmLvr.  My Parajubaeas are all either dead or given away now.  I just don't think they liked my hot, humid, wet summer climate and they were planted in too much shade.  Cold was not the problem.  They seem to have no problem handling the northern Florida cold winter nights, although if you are way up in freezing Dallas, I would not try one there. I am not sure which part of Texas you are located in, but Parajubaea (not cocoides, but sunkha, totallyii , tor-v-tor, and microcarpa) should be cold-hardy in Houston and anywhere else along the Gulf of Mexico coast from Galveston down to Brownsville, then west as far as Laredo or even farther. They might be cold-hardy in San Antonio too, but perhaps Austin is borderline.  I would not chance it anywhere in western Texas though.  Mine never suffered any cold-damage, but I don't live in El Paso.  Probably the soil and dryness of El Paso would be appreciated by a Parajubaea, but it is presumably too cold there.

 

I just think parajubaeas would do better in a dry climate (and well-draining, dry-ish, granular soil) and in a location that is pretty sunny.   I am fairly convinced that parajubaeas don't like Florida anyway.  Maybe others have had a better experience than me, but the real proof is whether they can show photos of actually trunking parajubaeas anywhere in the eastern 2/3 of the US ---and that includes Texas.  I would be surprised if any existed.  There are plenty in California, but not here.

 

I have one of Patric Schaeffer's Parajubaea hybrids too.  It is a Butia Odorata "mutt" x Parajubaea Cocoides (B x PJC).  It looks healthy, but it simply will not grow much for me.  After a year, I transplanted it out into a sunnier spot, but it still will not grow.  Some palms simply do not thrive in high-humidity climates with a lot of summer rain.   If you are located in a humid region of Texas (like Houston), I would not bother with a B x PJC because it might not grow for you there either.   The only reason I bought one was because of the lightning speed that Californians reported for that hybrid.   What grows quickly in California sometimes grows slowly in Florida, and vice versa.

 

I have other hybrids too, but that is my only one with Parajubaea in it.  

Thanks for the quick reply =) I live in south Houston so 100% humidity with wet summers and winters. With Gumbo clay i prolly couldnt even amend it enough to make it a happy spot. I too would like to know if anyone else has grown one in the Gulf. 

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Tropicdoc

Sandy 

i think you may just have a dud b x pjc. I have 4 and they are growing great in sun and shade. As you know here in south Louisiana lots and lots of rain, gumbo mud, high humidity year round and some freezes. They survived 18 degrees F but were covered in frost cloth with Christmas lights so not a true test. 

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OC2Texaspalmlvr

@Tropicdoc Would love to see pics of yours , since we prolly have to deal with very similiar weather and soil. 

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meteorologistpalmguy

I currently have a B X PJC in the ground that has been there for about 3 years and is still very small.  It is growing in shade, but I too have experienced the very slow growth mentioned.  It has taken 15 degrees a couple of times without any damage though!   

I obtained a B X PJT from Patric early last year.. so it has been in the ground through one fairly mild winter with some leaf spotting after the mid 20s.   Growth is significantly faster than the B X PJC, but considerably slower/much less robust versus say a mule. 

Had a pure PJ TVT in the ground for about a year... made it through winter fine.. then in the summer it just started to look weathered and gave up and died.

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RJ

I can say BxPJc is fast for me. Mine is in a pot still but it's 2x faster then a mule for me. Does Patric do a BxPJm (microcarpa)? I forgot to ask him last time I spoke with him. I have a couple more palms to order this summer so perhaps. I haven't tried a BxPJ as TVT is just a monster...  

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_Keith
On 2/9/2015 at 12:45 PM, Tropicdoc said:

Who's got one? What are the differences in variant torallyi vs microcarpa?

I killed one, or three. 

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Tropicdoc

Keith! Still lurking out there, eh?

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Sandy Loam
On 8/28/2019 at 7:12 PM, RJ said:

I can say BxPJc is fast for me. Mine is in a pot still but it's 2x faster then a mule for me. Does Patric do a BxPJm (microcarpa)? I forgot to ask him last time I spoke with him. I have a couple more palms to order this summer so perhaps. I haven't tried a BxPJ as TVT is just a monster...  

Hello RJ.  I see that you are located in Columbia, South Carolina.  In your humid climate, I am surprised that your mule palms are not faster growing.  Here, my mule palms are much, much, much faster growing than my BxPJC.  However, my ultimate hybrid for growth speed right now is actually a Livistona Maria x Livistona Decipiens hybrid (not from Patric).  It was a baby one gallon pot three years ago and now it is as tall as me, although it has always been in full sun. 

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RJ
On 8/31/2019 at 12:44 AM, Sandy Loam said:

Hello RJ.  I see that you are located in Columbia, South Carolina.  In your humid climate, I am surprised that your mule palms are not faster growing.  Here, my mule palms are much, much, much faster growing than my BxPJC.  However, my ultimate hybrid for growth speed right now is actually a Livistona Maria x Livistona Decipiens hybrid (not from Patric).  It was a baby one gallon pot three years ago and now it is as tall as me, although it has always been in full sun. 

Wow that is FAST! Yes we're hot and humid I have some Yatay  mules that I purchased at the same time as the BxPJC and the para hybrid is about twice the size. Not in overall height but just overall mass I would say. The BxPJSun is about half the speed of the PJC. 

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krishnaraoji88
On 8/27/2019 at 8:40 PM, Sandy Loam said:

Hello OC2TexasPalmLvr.  My Parajubaeas are all either dead or given away now.  I just don't think they liked my hot, humid, wet summer climate and they were planted in too much shade.  Cold was not the problem.  They seem to have no problem handling the northern Florida cold winter nights, although if you are way up in freezing Dallas, I would not try one there. I am not sure which part of Texas you are located in, but Parajubaea (not cocoides, but sunkha, totallyii , tor-v-tor, and microcarpa) should be cold-hardy in Houston and anywhere else along the Gulf of Mexico coast from Galveston down to Brownsville, then west as far as Laredo or even farther. They might be cold-hardy in San Antonio too, but perhaps Austin is borderline.  I would not chance it anywhere in western Texas though.  Mine never suffered any cold-damage, but I don't live in El Paso.  Probably the soil and dryness of El Paso would be appreciated by a Parajubaea, but it is presumably too cold there.

 

I just think parajubaeas would do better in a dry climate (and well-draining, dry-ish, granular soil) and in a location that is pretty sunny.   I am fairly convinced that parajubaeas don't like Florida anyway.  Maybe others have had a better experience than me, but the real proof is whether they can show photos of actually trunking parajubaeas anywhere in the eastern 2/3 of the US ---and that includes Texas.  I would be surprised if any existed.  There are plenty in California, but not here.

 

I have one of Patric Schaeffer's Parajubaea hybrids too.  It is a Butia Odorata "mutt" x Parajubaea Cocoides (B x PJC).  It looks healthy, but it simply will not grow much for me.  After a year, I transplanted it out into a sunnier spot, but it still will not grow.  Some palms simply do not thrive in high-humidity climates with a lot of summer rain.   If you are located in a humid region of Texas (like Houston), I would not bother with a B x PJC because it might not grow for you there either.   The only reason I bought one was because of the lightning speed that Californians reported for that hybrid.   What grows quickly in California sometimes grows slowly in Florida, and vice versa.

 

I have other hybrids too, but that is my only one with Parajubaea in it.  

Attached are my Parajubea sunkha and BxP (unsure which species). Both do well in North central Florida with minimal care but the parajubaea is slow

738D4088-1070-4876-BC2E-CE7B893A59B1.jpeg

CB0F1A39-70AD-4885-A705-F9F50ED22E08.jpeg

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Fusca
2 hours ago, krishnaraoji88 said:

Attached are my Parajubea sunkha and BxP

How much sun exposure does your P. sunkha get?  I've got one in a 3-gal container and was advised to plant in partial shade here.

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OC2Texaspalmlvr

@krishnaraoji88 your BxPJ is looking pretty happy how long have you had it and at what size ? Im guessing seedling if its a Patric hybrid right? Seems like humidity may not be the problem if in the right location. Im curious if it could take my wet cold winters. 

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krishnaraoji88

I got the BxP as a two leaf seedling from Patric in 2010 but it languished for a while partially due to  several years of raining cold winters which caused it and the JxS to lose spears from and then also the soil it’s in is junk and the Bismarck is shading it. Suddenly about 5 years ago it started really taking off and now it gets bigger every time I see it and is trouble free. Winters in Ocala are sometimes dry central Florida and sometimes wet frozen north florida, it’s a grab bag. 

As far as the sun exposure for the P sunkha it’s in partial sun but I think it might grow faster in more sun. It’s very stretched out looking where it is

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OC2Texaspalmlvr

@krishnaraoji88 Would you say your BxPJ hardiness has gotten better with size? What kind of protection did you give it in the winter time ? Im becoming more interested in trying this hybrid. 

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krishnaraoji88

Yeah. I think most of the Patric hybrids resent wet cold until they get a little stockier. I didn’t give any protection but in retrospect I wish I had kept both it and the JxS dry the first few winters until they were like a 5 gallon size (I plant out seedlings) as both had spear pull which set them back 2 years in a row

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OC2Texaspalmlvr

@krishnaraoji88 how is your JxS looking these days ? Thats the ultimate hybrid imo. @meteorologistpalmguy has 1 and he is just north of me and its an absolute stunner :drool:I think you got me sold on trying a BxPJ. 

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krishnaraoji88

Here’s a pic from May. I haven’t quite figured out how to get the right lighting to photograph it. I’m actually making a quick stop through Ocala this week so will try to get an updated picture

2B189B33-96F9-412E-95B1-F32479CCE637.jpeg

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OC2Texaspalmlvr

:drool:Yup thats a real winner !!! Sorry to get off subject haha 

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Tropicdoc

Wow that’s a couple of very nice cold hardy palms!!!!!

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