brahea nitida

[gyuseppe]

this Brahea was made from seeds that I took at the botanical garden of naples

label was Brahea calcarea,is really brahea nitida?

[gyuseppe]

the leaves much silver

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Giuseppe, I have one in my nitida/calcarea batch that looks identical to yours. The other ones have totally green leaves with only silver undersides and no silver outline on the top and no silver petioles. This one to me looks like it will turn into super silver. Mine that looks like yours also has the silver leaf outline on the top and on the petioles, and it's slowly getting more and more silver even on the top.

This puzzles me. I guess it could be that super silver is just a variant of nitida/calcarea.

[Phoenikakias]

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/b11-043 Although a very experienced member in EPS disputes this, a scientific research has found that nitida even in nature hybridizes freely (in this particular case with dulcis) to the extent of extinction of pure specimens in some locations. If this is so, we should stop searching the enigma of various Brahea forms and their classification and accept the fact that there are countless intermediate forms like in the genus Phoenix.

[gyuseppe]

Giuseppe, I have one in my nitida/calcarea batch that looks identical to yours. The other ones have totally green leaves with only silver undersides and no silver outline on the top and no silver petioles. This one to me looks like it will turn into super silver. Mine that looks like yours also has the silver leaf outline on the top and on the petioles, and it's slowly getting more and more silver even on the top.

This puzzles me. I guess it could be that super silver is just a variant of nitida/calcarea.

AXEL I also think that Brahea super silver and Brahea nitida are closely linked

I planted both, Brahea super silver and Brahea nitida ,I remember that seeds of Brahea super silver were smaller and the shape was different, from the seeds of Brahea nitida

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/b11-043 Although a very experienced member in EPS disputes this, a scientific research has found that nitida even in nature hybridizes freely (in this particular case with dulcis) to the extent of extinction of pure specimens in some locations. If this is so, we should stop searching the enigma of various Brahea forms and their classification and accept the fact that there are countless intermediate forms like in the genus Phoenix.

I am convinced that all brahea readily hybridize in the wild and especially in cultivation, and quite heavily in most cases. In fact this is what makes classifying brahea so difficult.

Giuseppe, I have one in my nitida/calcarea batch that looks identical to yours. The other ones have totally green leaves with only silver undersides and no silver outline on the top and no silver petioles. This one to me looks like it will turn into super silver. Mine that looks like yours also has the silver leaf outline on the top and on the petioles, and it's slowly getting more and more silver even on the top.

This puzzles me. I guess it could be that super silver is just a variant of nitida/calcarea.

AXEL I also think that Brahea super silver and Brahea nitida are closely linked

I planted both, Brahea super silver and Brahea nitida ,I remember that seeds of Brahea super silver were smaller and the shape was different, from the seeds of Brahea nitida

I have two specimens so far that started out as brahea nitida and turned into super silver look alikes. While this is not a scientific result (seeds could have gotten mixed up) it does suggest that either the two species are very closely related or brahea nitida has a form that turns silver. There is a difference on how they turn silver, which is why I think the silver form of brahea nitida might be different from the regular nitida. Brahea super silver turns silver equally on top and the bottom. However, the silver form of nitida seems to start silver at the bottom, and then the silver spreads to the petiole and leaf margin, and finally the whole leaf turns silver.

[palmaddict]

I have a Brahea nitida with more than a foot of trunk and it is about eight inches in diameter at its base (10 years old). It is a very different palm to me than Brahea super silver.

nitida

glossy top green surface to the frond

silver underside to the frond

petioles are not silver

leaf is very round and larger than supersilver

palm frond is very relaxed with tips that can droop over

silver does not spread with age

supersilver

when young silver underneath but it sreads as it ages to all surfaces

petioles are silver eventually

leaf is smaller than nitida points upward (steep angle to the frond)

palm frond is rigid and keeps its shape, no drooping tips

If you put my two plants side by side they look substantially different. No way you would consider them the same. Much of what has been sold as nitida has proven to be something else. I agree that if territories overlap there could be substantial hybridization and so distinct forms may only exist in isolated areas and the rest is a continuum of phenotypes between the two distinct plants. At that point it comes down to where the seed was collected which became the origin of the palm you possess.

patrick

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I have a Brahea nitida with more than a foot of trunk and it is about eight inches in diameter at its base (10 years old). It is a very different palm to me than Brahea super silver.

nitida

glossy top green surface to the frond

silver underside to the frond

petioles are not silver

leaf is very round and larger than supersilver

palm frond is very relaxed with tips that can droop over

silver does not spread with age

supersilver

when young silver underneath but it sreads as it ages to all surfaces

petioles are silver eventually

leaf is smaller than nitida points upward (steep angle to the frond)

palm frond is rigid and keeps its shape, no drooping tips

If you put my two plants side by side they look substantially different. No way you would consider them the same. Much of what has been sold as nitida has proven to be something else. I agree that if territories overlap there could be substantial hybridization and so distinct forms may only exist in isolated areas and the rest is a continuum of phenotypes between the two distinct plants. At that point it comes down to where the seed was collected which became the origin of the palm you possess.

patrick

Patrick, thanks, you have solved a mystery for me! I have two brahea nitida that I got from Joe that match your nitida description and that he sold to me as nitida. They're the real deal. However, the entire batch of about half a dozen "nitida" I purchased from another nursery turns out to be super silver according your description. The oldest one of that batch is definitely super silver, and the smaller ones have more upright, erect leaves. So the whole batch is probably super silver, which is somewhat good news, because it means I can plant a whole forest of these, something I've been wanting to do anyway.

This must be super silver:

smaller super silver:

Here's a real brahea nitida:

[Phoenikakias]

I think Patrick's description fits entirely to what I also have as picture of nitida in mind. But my impression is based only on the form of a Brahea of mine, which was bought as a nitida seedling.

[Phoenikakias]

David Jones describes some vegetal parts of nitida like this: ... broad stiff blades with the tips of the segments lax or conspicuously drooping...the trunk of this palm is relatively stout and is covered by persistent, pale brown, fibrous leaf bases. Well my specimen shows 100% those traits. Remarkable it is additionally that another Brahea of mine (now dead), bought as dulcis seedling, had round leaves deeply green adaxially and white abaxially but with totally smooth petioles. Only difference from the nitida seedling had been that it was growing faster and stem had a leaning, as if it remained undeciding whether to creep or not plus that fibers were dark brown. Now I am sure that latter specimen was a hybrid. The hybrid theory may explain the difference among reports about growth rate of nitida (hybrid vigor). In this last aspect David Jones mentions further: This is an ornamental, but slow growing palm...

Among the various Brahea specimens I grow, this one is definitely the slowest, but I am not sure whether it is to be attributed to genetics or competition through another, older, next growing Brahea.

[Phoenikakias]

This is a very interesting topic in the EPS about my both specimens http://www.palmsociety.org.uk/forum/topic.asp?boardid=1&show=31&page=0&topicid=4989 Because many of you do not have access to the EPS forum I republish here some pics of both specimens

First comes the 'dulcis'

[Phoenikakias]

Second comes the 'nitida'

[Phoenikakias]

Not much of a difference so far hmm? But the essential difference was rather lying on the basal part of the their tranks/stems

Brahea 'dulcis':

Brahea 'nitida':

Pictures do no justice to reality but I assure you that the naturally leaning habit (meaning not just phototropism) was that of 'dulcis', the thin part of its stem was taking another direction from the swollen base.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Phoenikakias

[Hillizard]

On 5/28/2014, 4:42:39, Brahea Axel said:

 

Patrick, thanks, you have solved a mystery for me! I have two brahea nitida that I got from Joe that match your nitida description and that he sold to me as nitida. They're the real deal. However, the entire batch of about half a dozen "nitida" I purchased from another nursery turns out to be super silver according your description. The oldest one of that batch is definitely super silver, and the smaller ones have more upright, erect leaves. So the whole batch is probably super silver, which is somewhat good news, because it means I can plant a whole forest of these, something I've been wanting to do anyway.

 

This must be super silver:

 

 

smaller super silver:

 

 

Here's a real brahea nitida:

 

For Arbor Day (yesterday in the U.S.), I wanted to plant a tree so I chose a Brahea nitida. It's placed where it only gets morning sun, since it'd burn otherwise in central NorCal. Hope it grows faster now that it's been liberated after years in a pot! 

 

[Phoenikakias]

Burn?

[Hillizard]

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

Burn?

Yep, the leaves get scorched on the plants that were sold to me years ago as B. nitida, while my Brahea 'Super Silver' can take full sun here in Sacramento, California. Same thing with some of the Trachycarpus species I grow - some do well here in full sun (T. 'nova,'  princeps, and nana), others seem to do better in half-shade [T. latisectus and T. fortunei 'wagnerianus')].

 

 

[Ben in Norcal]

54 minutes ago, Hillizard said:

Yep, the leaves get scorched on the plants that were sold to me years ago as B. nitida, while my Brahea 'Super Silver' can take full sun here in Sacramento, California. Same thing with some of the Trachycarpus species I grow - some do well here in full sun (T. 'nova,'  princeps, and nana), others seem to do better in half-shade [T. latisectus and T. fortunei 'wagnerianus')].

 

 

B. nitida are a full sun palm in the East Bay.  They can be grown in light shade, but prefer sun.  You must have got some shade grown plants.

[Hillizard]

9 minutes ago, Ben in Norcal said:

B. nitida are a full sun palm in the East Bay.  They can be grown in light shade, but prefer sun.  You must have got some shade grown plants.

Ben: I wish that was the case, but I've grown them for over five years here outside and when they're in full-sun and it hits triple-digits (and very low humidity) they fry. It's significantly hotter here than the East Bay. In fact, sometimes in the summer I drive west to the East Bay seeking relief from the heat! 

[Ben in Norcal]

Just now, Hillizard said:

Ben: I wish that was the case, but I've grown them for over five years here outside and when they're in full-sun and it hits triple-digits (and very low humidity) they fry. It's significantly hotter here than the East Bay. In fact, sometimes in the summer I drive west to the East Bay seeking relief from the heat! 

Yeah, we get multiple stretches of triple digits every year.  Never experienced any burn.  You are just a few degrees hotter, so maybe that's the tipping point.  Still, find it really surprising, I've always thought of these as a full sun, can take a brutal baking and be fine, type of palm.

[Hillizard]

1 minute ago, Ben in Norcal said:

Yeah, we get multiple stretches of triple digits every year.  Never experienced any burn.  You are just a few degrees hotter, so maybe that's the tipping point.  Still, find it really surprising, I've always thought of these as a full sun, can take a brutal baking and be fine, type of palm.

Growing them in pots might also be a factor here. So when the one I planted out grows into the sun, we'll see what happens. Thanks for your feedback!

Edited May 1, 2017 by Hillizard

[Phoenikakias]

5 hours ago, Hillizard said:

Growing them in pots might also be a factor here. So when the one I planted out grows into the sun, we'll see what happens. Thanks for your feedback!

Aha, this fact alone can make hell of a difference! I guess that a plant in a pot can never be adequately wateted in full sun in xerothermic conditions. Also heat in the root zone can do harm, when pot is exposed to full sun.