More "Mad Fox" Mystery

[Dypsisdean]

I still remain less than convinced that we have this species IDed correctly. For those of you who haven't been following this controversy for what has now been many years, you can catch up with some of the past speculation in this Topic from the past. http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=3795&page=2&#entry444669

But the basic gist of the discussion is that this palm has now been IDed as Dypsis marojejyi, but I still have some doubts. So I will present some more photos for comparison, and would like to hear your feedback.

Here are some pics of what originally was collected many years ago and called the "Madagascan Foxtail," affectionately known as the "Mad Fox" around here. This seed was collected by Rolf Kyburz - and here are some photos of this palm taken by Rolf in habitat (courtesy of PACSOA). Notice how the fronds can lay very much below the horizontal.

[Dypsisdean]

And now - here are some photos of two different palms from the Rolf collected seed. One is at Floribunda (Jeff Marcus) and the other is in my garden. To me they definitely look like the same palm as the ones photographed by Rolf. There are many more photos of these two palms here. http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Dypsis_marojejyi

[Dypsisdean]

And now......

Here is a photo by Jeff Searle in habitat of Dypsis marojejyi. Notice the upright habit of this palm as described in POM as a litter collecting palm. The photos in POM also show the upright habit of a classic litter collecting palm. And also included is a photo from Bill Baker of Kew in habitiat of Dypsis marojejyi. Again, it is hard to see, but notice that all the fronds are held above the horizontal. (The smailler frond-like leaves you see are ferns growing from the litter collection in the crown)

If you have POM, please also look at the pronounced upright habit of the photos contained therein for Dypsis marojejyi.

This look is very different than the palms from Rolf's seed that have a very relaxed habit.

[Dypsisdean]

And now, please notice the following photos of the seed of Dypsis coursii. These photos are from Bill Baker and Jeff Searle.

[Dypsisdean]

And now the just ripened seed on my "Mad Fox." These seeds were completely green and round two days ago. And they just popped like popcorn in less than 48 hours - looking identical to what the Dypsis coursii seeds have done.

In addition, I have seen pics of D. coursii seeds in a book at Jeff Marcus' that show seeds identical to the ones pictured here.

[Dypsisdean]

And now another interesting discrepancy I have noticed. Not conclusive of anything, just potentially interesting. Below is one small plant from seed that Jeff Searle collected as D. marojejyi, and a small plant of what has come from seed of a Rolf collected parent. Jeff's plant (with the Sharpie) has no "fuzz," where as the Rolf collected plant has a very dark fuzzy covering. Rolf's palm is older of course, but also included is a pic of a very small seedling off of my parent (Angela's fingers for scale if you look closely). And you can see it is already developing the fuzz.

But - although it is too hard to see in the photos of adult plants, I think I can see a difference in the adult "crownal region" of the two plants I am trying to differentiate. The Rolf plants seem to have a much redder and fuzzier crownal region as adults - and maybe this is visible from a young age.

So while none of this is conclusive, it has me leaning again in the direction that something else is going on here.

[LJG]

Dean this should be a very easy one to key out now that you have one flowering. 1 - is the inflorescence inter or intra-foliar? 2- do they branch to 1-2 orders or 3? Simple enough. In habitat pics you can clearly see the interfoliar inflorescence in Marojejyi. Can't tell on Jeff's or your plants from the pics. Go look now and you will know your answer to this one. There are a few other clues in POM too.

[Dypsisdean]

Dean this should be a very easy one to key out now that you have one flowering. 1 - is the inflorescence inter or intra-foliar? 2- do they branch to 1-2 orders or 3? Simple enough. In habitat pics you can clearly see the interfoliar inflorescence in Marojejyi. Can't tell on Jeff's or your plants from the pics. Go look now and you will know your answer to this one. There are a few other clues in POM too.

This was discussed in the other topic - to no real conclusion - because things just don't add up. It is branching to 2 orders like D. coursii, but inter-foliar like D. marojejyi. So now what?

First we have to assume that POM is correct. And we know there have understandably been some errors - unlikely, but a possibility. And then there is the issue of branching to 2 or 3. It was speculated that all the inflorescences were branching to only two orders (whereas D. marojejyi branches to three) because the plants were not old enough yet. But I have looked at over 50 inflorescences on plants with over a foot of trunk now, with dozens of branches on each one, and only found an indication on two inflorescences of a single branch branching to the third order. So, close to a thousand branches examined, and only two branched to the third order. Does this mean it should be described as branching to 3 orders?

And the seed on Rolfs plants are almost perfectly spherical, so does this disqualify it as "ovoboid" as D. marojejyi is described? And the inter-foliar, etc. is a mystery that would disqualify these plants as D. coursii, if I am not mistaken - because Rolf's plants are clearly inter-foliar - so not D. coursii - according to POM.

And then there are these pics of seeds. One looks as if they are a dead ringer for D. marojejyi seeds, off what I believe is Jeff's non-Rolf collected plants (in the tray). But they are much different than the seeds on my Rolf collected seed plant, also shown here (on the paper plate) - that are much more "D. coursii-like" - larger and more spherical ("slightly ovoboid"). Would you think these are both off the same species? In addition, one has a shiny smooth shell, the other is dull and rough.

And would it not be possible that Rolf collected another Dypsis entirely, not described in POM? And it is neither D. marojejyi or D. coursii??? I'm only raising questions - because IMO, there are still some loose ends.

[Dypsisdean]

Maybe someone smarter than me can tell us what this indicates? These are almost exactly 20mm spheres. Not really pointed on one end at all. In fact, some are almost a "squashed" sphere as opposed to ovoid. But to me these look closer to D. coursii.

[Jeff Searle]

Dean,

This is a very interesting and complex topic to be discussed. AND, much more easier to observe over on your end of the world. Lol. Unlike here, where this palm has proven to be one that will not grow here(that I'm aware of) therefore a lack of information on growth, leaf structure, seeds, flowers,etc. I would love to see John Dransfield openly shed some light with any information he can share for all of us to enjoy. Enjoy? Pulling one's hair out of your head might not be considered a form of enjoyment though..............

[Mandrew968]

Has John Dransfield gone to Hawaii and identifed any Dypsis as the true Dypsis marojejyi or are all of us going off of another's identification? If this were the case, and Dr. Dransfield has properly identified it as the real marojejyi, then we at least have something concrete to rely on.

Secondly, is there anywhere in cultivation where a true Dypsis coursii is growing? I would guess no... Dean, would you guess as the palms (you have been looking at) get older, is the inflorescence showing more orders to 3 branching? Maybe this palm is just a young adult and as it ages, it may start to branch to 3 orders... I know Attaleas change florally; as they grow and produce more energy, female flowers and seeds are often produced where when first starting out, they are almost exclusively male(as the palm has limited energy--male pollen takes less sugar than an infructescence).

Thirdly, we are talking Dypsis. Let's all think about the madagascariensis complex and the many different variations we see just in this small section of Dypsis. These two palms in question, may be the same palm on two different mountain tops. How many types of Braheas or Hyphaene are there? I bring this up because in these two genus, there are many subtle differences between populations that many people feel justifies a new species listing, but most leading taxonomists feel these subtle differences do not merrit a seperate species, and are just regional discrepancies of the same palm. IMO there are many species of Dypsis that are not justified and I think it is everyone's opinion that this genus needs comprehensive revision.

[BS Man about Palms]

I hope its the same plant only because Gary and I have 2 dead examples of the "other one".. If It was different, I would be as sad as Jeff..

[LJG]

Dean this should be a very easy one to key out now that you have one flowering. 1 - is the inflorescence inter or intra-foliar? 2- do they branch to 1-2 orders or 3? Simple enough. In habitat pics you can clearly see the interfoliar inflorescence in Marojejyi. Can't tell on Jeff's or your plants from the pics. Go look now and you will know your answer to this one. There are a few other clues in POM too.

This was discussed in the other topic - to no real conclusion - because things just don't add up. It is branching to 2 orders like D. coursii, but inter-foliar like D. marojejyi. So now what?

First we have to assume that POM is correct. And we know there have understandably been some errors - unlikely, but a possibility. And then there is the issue of branching to 2 or 3. It was speculated that all the inflorescences were branching to only two orders (whereas D. marojejyi branches to three) because the plants were not old enough yet. But I have looked at over 50 inflorescences on plants with over a foot of trunk now, with dozens of branches on each one, and only found an indication on two inflorescences of a single branch branching to the third order. So, close to a thousand branches examined, and only two branched to the third order. Does this mean it should be described as branching to 3 orders?

And the seed on Rolfs plants are almost perfectly spherical, so does this disqualify it as "ovoboid" as D. marojejyi is described? And the inter-foliar, etc. is a mystery that would disqualify these plants as D. coursii, if I am not mistaken - because Rolf's plants are clearly inter-foliar - so not D. coursii - according to POM.

And then there are these pics of seeds. One looks as if they are a dead ringer for D. marojejyi seeds, off what I believe is Jeff's non-Rolf collected plants (in the tray). But they are much different than the seeds on my Rolf collected seed plant, also shown here (on the paper plate) - that are much more "D. coursii-like" - larger and more spherical ("slightly ovoboid"). Would you think these are both off the same species? In addition, one has a shiny smooth shell, the other is dull and rough.

And would it not be possible that Rolf collected another Dypsis entirely, not described in POM? And it is neither D. marojejyi or D. coursii??? I'm only raising questions - because IMO, there are still some loose ends.

Dean, I would take inter vs intra as the key identifier right now. That won't change with age. Well at least I have never heard of it but I have seen plants do both but are also labeled both in keys. Order branching can change with maturity as we have seen before. Also I would love to know from a Botonist if branching order numbers are selected based off the highest amount seen on the flower or if it means a certain percentage of branching must meet that requirement. Lets say 75% to the third order means it is 3.

If POM is valid, then my guess is this has to be Marojejya (or variation - which is very easy with Dypsis ) due to fact a few flowers have had 3 orders and it is interfoliar. I know why you keep bringing this up though because the plant really has the 'feel' it should be Coursii doesn't it?

[LJG]

Dean, I just read that thread you posted. I can't believe this has been going on since 2007! In reading it I don't think much has changed. It was great seeing John D posted here. If you were to ask him again i doubt his opinion changes since there is no real new data. But who knows.

[schatzle78]

Dean,

Thanks for reviving my favorite topic, and the excellent summary you made. Definitely some very interesting and compelling points.

I think the most striking thing for me is the clear difference in seed morphology. The cross section of your seed is one of your strongest arguments in favor of coursii. One needs only to compare the cross sections of coursii and marojejyi on pp. 231 and 235 respectively of POM to see this. Also, in my opinion, the seeds of D. marojejyi went around a few years ago were much more consistent with those pictured from Jeff's newer plant, than those off of yours. Have you measured your latest seeds for a size comparison to POM?

In terms of the branching orders, I reviewed POM and its pictures yet again. Dransfield describes the inflorescences as "branched to 3 orders." I take that to mean that it is up to 3 orders, and not necessarily the majority of the inflorescence. In fact, if I am correct in my novice evaluation of the illustration of the inflorescence on p.235, I would say that although there is 3rd order branching illustrated, the majority appears to be only to the 2nd order. I also tried to closely evaluate the picture of the inflorescence on p.234. I hesitate to even comment on a 2-dimensional photograph of what Dransfield saw in person, but again, there seems to be majority 2nd order branching with some examples of 3rd order branching. I attempted to circle what appeared to me to be examples of 3rd order branching (apologies for the unfortunate locations of some of the circles).

Yet despite the fact that 3rd order branching does not appear predominant, wouldn't you expect that after a thousand branches evaluated, you would see more than 2 examples? That just seems unreasonable with a sample size that large.

I did find one other interesting bit of information with regards to Jeff M's two separate sets of plants - one set apparently Rolf collected, and one not. Although the seeds themselves are seemingly different, I question whether the appearance of the overall plant is really that different. This is a link to a thread that Bo and Kim started after a trip to Jeff's last summer showing what I believe to be his second, newer set of plants. These appear indistinguishable to me from the Rolf collected plants, with their fronds also being held below horizontal. They certainly don't look like habitat pics with the fronds held above horizontal as you describe. Yet, they seem to be producing grossly different seeds.

What exactly this all adds up to, I am not completely sure. Different species? Age and environment differences? Individual genetic variation within the same species? The puzzle pieces don't seem to fit perfectly one way or the other. It's certainly a fascinating topic.

Please feel free to correct me on any inaccuracies as I definitely don't want to muddy the waters further.

Mike

[Dypsisdean]

I'll address some of the points made above after giving more time for others to chime in first. But let me add the following pics of D. coursii from an issue of "Palms" Sept. 2009. And one more of some D. marojejyi seed.

Note on the D. coursii pic:

1) The relaxed leaves laying below the horizontal.

2) The fruit/seeds - described as "The fruit flesh splits to reveal the delicately grooved seed."

I could not have written a better description of the seed on the Rolf collected plant as being 'delicately grooved.' And again, it is easy to see the identical nature of the 'fruit flesh splitting.'

I have also included another pic of D. marojejyi seed from 'edric' on Palmpedia that is very similar to the seed of Jeff M's above - and that he states the size as 15 mm. It is hard to see (unless you have seen in person) but Ed's seed does not have the same 'delicate grooving.' (maybe a freshness issue)

As an aside - On Rolf's plant, there is virtually no cleaning needed at all. The fruit is almost all split and pulled away from the dry seed as it is still attached to the plant. Something that I believe is fairly uncommon.

[Dypsisdean]

I know why you keep bringing this up though because the plant really has the 'feel' it should be Coursii doesn't it?

Len,

I probably shouldn't admit (as an undergrad in Biology), that is what I am primarily going on - "The Feel" - Not the way a scientific topic should be approached.

But others, who's opinion I respect, have wondered along with me. In fact, when over at Jeff Marcus' one time, we pulled out that pic of the D. coursii seed and both commented that had to be what we had.

But there are some inconsistencies with either ID. I am only raising questions. I'm definitely not providing any answers.

[LJG]

Dean, I think you are putting a lot more weight on seed as a key identifier and less on a very distinctive identifier as printed in POM -interfoliar inflorescence. Seed can vary some in a batch and even more so seed can vary within variations of palms. Look at Chambeyronia for example. One thing that won't vary is inter vs intra-foliar inflorescence. Does anyone know a species that one plant has all interfoliar inflorescence and on another all intrafoliar inflorescence? I would love to know JDs take on this.

I honestly don't care what it turns out to be as I am happy it grows so well for me in my SoCal garden. But if I were a betting man I would say Marojejyi from the key or maybe a variation. Perhaps a higher elevation form since it handles the cold so well here in SoCal.

[Dypsisdean]

Dean, I think you are putting a lot more weight on seed as a key identifier and less on a very distinctive identifier as printed in POM -interfoliar inflorescence. Seed can vary some in a batch and even more so seed can vary within variations of palms. Look at Chambeyronia for example. One thing that won't vary is inter vs intra-foliar inflorescence. Does anyone know a species that one plant has all interfoliar inflorescence and on another all intrafoliar inflorescence? I would love to know JDs take on this.

I honestly don't care what it turns out to be as I am happy it grows so well for me in my SoCal garden. But if I were a betting man I would say Marojejyi from the key or maybe a variation. Perhaps a higher elevation form since it handles the cold so well here in SoCal.

Len - I am putting a lot of weight on the branching of the inflorescence as well. I went and looked at the one tiny branch that I thought might be branching to the third order - but it looks to me to be more of a morphed "fork" on one of the second order branches. And try as I might, I don't remember seeing one reliable branch to the third order on any of these palms. And keep in mind, my plant has been flowering profusely for over 5 year now, and Jeff's even longer. And with established trunk (1-2 feet) on both, I would think they would be considered mature palms at this stage. I'm guessing about 12 years old. I know mine was a 1 gal 10-11 years ago.

But, I will admit - this would be more likely to change than the inter/intra foliar thing.

But the seed and fruit does have me confused. Not so much the size and shape of the seed, but the fruit, and how it does the exact same thing that D. coursii is documented and pictured as doing. But I have no idea if this is the same habit as D. marojejyi. I have seen no references to that effect.

Which palm does the cut seed endosperm look like to you? Do you have POM?

[LJG]

Dean, I think you are putting a lot more weight on seed as a key identifier and less on a very distinctive identifier as printed in POM -interfoliar inflorescence. Seed can vary some in a batch and even more so seed can vary within variations of palms. Look at Chambeyronia for example. One thing that won't vary is inter vs intra-foliar inflorescence. Does anyone know a species that one plant has all interfoliar inflorescence and on another all intrafoliar inflorescence? I would love to know JDs take on this.

I honestly don't care what it turns out to be as I am happy it grows so well for me in my SoCal garden. But if I were a betting man I would say Marojejyi from the key or maybe a variation. Perhaps a higher elevation form since it handles the cold so well here in SoCal.

Which palm does the cut seed endosperm look like to you? Do you have POM?

More D. coursii to me. Same with the look and feel of the plants in general when looking at Hawaiian grown and habitat shots of D. coursii. But has anyone 100% keyed out the plants as D. coursii while they took photos in habitat? Or were they guessing?

[Dypsisdean]

FYI - I asked Jeff Marcus (from Floribunda Palms) to take a look at this topic, and he was nice enough to write me back and is allowing me to post his reply.

"Dean ..first of all who my plants are from on the old property are Rolf's seed and I distributed a few plants 15 yrs ago to R.lawyer and others..Rolf's collections in Madagascar were with Gunter Gottleib or his Malagasy man who really trek's around the bush..Tobias inherited this connection of Gunter Gottleib as Rolf has been out of the palm scene for awhile now..We hand pollinate a lot for our seed and some time we get few seeds as all of plants vary in their production of female flowers..when we get lots of seed on one flower the seed can be smaller than seed that has been hand pollinated and only makes say 15 seed they can be larger..We also bloom feed our palms, and that is something you do not do that affects flowering and fruit production..My seed comes from my production and some from Toby.. And Toby's is Gottleib collected from what I feel is the same population that Rolf is pictured in from the PACSOA website..All the plants as a juvenile to one gallon seem very similar in growth and looks whether from my seed or Madagascar..The pictures of the endosperm on your photos match what our seed looks like when cut open and I still feel these plants are all the same and with cultivation and fertilization they can vary a bit..Dean we harvest thousands and thousands more seed than your garden or most gardens of Madagascar palms and some seeds are 100% cookie cutter and some have some variation..My Dypsis leucomalla seed is a bit bigger than what Toby sends..So seed size is not a valid method for saying something is different..I think all your points are good.. The Palm discussion and I am open to this palm not being D.marojejyii, but I'm not going to worry on this..We do need to get it right and if its coursii then we change the name..The seed behaves more like coursii but it has to be one of the 2..I will donate 100 dollars to your fund raiser in cash.. just tell me who to send the check to..Jeff

Jeff, thanks a million for the very generous donation.

[Dypsisdean]

Has John Dransfield gone to Hawaii and identifed any Dypsis as the true Dypsis marojejyi or are all of us going off of another's identification? If this were the case, and Dr. Dransfield has properly identified it as the real marojejyi, then we at least have something concrete to rely on.

Secondly, is there anywhere in cultivation where a true Dypsis coursii is growing? I would guess no... Dean, would you guess as the palms (you have been looking at) get older, is the inflorescence showing more orders to 3 branching? Maybe this palm is just a young adult and as it ages, it may start to branch to 3 orders... I know Attaleas change florally; as they grow and produce more energy, female flowers and seeds are often produced where when first starting out, they are almost exclusively male(as the palm has limited energy--male pollen takes less sugar than an infructescence).

Thirdly, we are talking Dypsis. Let's all think about the madagascariensis complex and the many different variations we see just in this small section of Dypsis. These two palms in question, may be the same palm on two different mountain tops. How many types of Braheas or Hyphaene are there? I bring this up because in these two genus, there are many subtle differences between populations that many people feel justifies a new species listing, but most leading taxonomists feel these subtle differences do not merrit a seperate species, and are just regional discrepancies of the same palm. IMO there are many species of Dypsis that are not justified and I think it is everyone's opinion that this genus needs comprehensive revision.

Andrew,

Yes JD has been to Jeff's. And yes he has seen this palm. But to the best of my knowledge there was no particular interest paid to this particular palm at the time - mainly because there were so many other species to arouse his interest. It was later that some questions were raised and through photos, and perhaps some recollection, that he stated that he felt Jeff's palm was D. marojejyi.

And I have never heard of D. coursii being mentioned as to being in cultivation. Nor have I heard of seeds ever being available. If someone knows differently, please let us know. But regarding the branching and maturity - as I mentioned, if a palm isn't mature after 10 years of flowering and trunking, when will it be?

As to differentiating between species and variations of species, etc, I'll leave that can of worms to the botanists. My main concern is that we are all talking about the same palm when we mention a particular name, or purchase a particular palm or seeds.

[Dypsisdean]

Dean,

Thanks for reviving my favorite topic, and the excellent summary you made. Definitely some very interesting and compelling points.

I think the most striking thing for me is the clear difference in seed morphology. The cross section of your seed is one of your strongest arguments in favor of coursii. One needs only to compare the cross sections of coursii and marojejyi on pp. 231 and 235 respectively of POM to see this. Also, in my opinion, the seeds of D. marojejyi went around a few years ago were much more consistent with those pictured from Jeff's newer plant, than those off of yours. Have you measured your latest seeds for a size comparison to POM?

In terms of the branching orders, I reviewed POM and its pictures yet again. Dransfield describes the inflorescences as "branched to 3 orders." I take that to mean that it is up to 3 orders, and not necessarily the majority of the inflorescence. In fact, if I am correct in my novice evaluation of the illustration of the inflorescence on p.235, I would say that although there is 3rd order branching illustrated, the majority appears to be only to the 2nd order. I also tried to closely evaluate the picture of the inflorescence on p.234. I hesitate to even comment on a 2-dimensional photograph of what Dransfield saw in person, but again, there seems to be majority 2nd order branching with some examples of 3rd order branching. I attempted to circle what appeared to me to be examples of 3rd order branching (apologies for the unfortunate locations of some of the circles).

D. marojejyi inf 3rd.jpg

Yet despite the fact that 3rd order branching does not appear predominant, wouldn't you expect that after a thousand branches evaluated, you would see more than 2 examples? That just seems unreasonable with a sample size that large.

I did find one other interesting bit of information with regards to Jeff M's two separate sets of plants - one set apparently Rolf collected, and one not. Although the seeds themselves are seemingly different, I question whether the appearance of the overall plant is really that different. This is a link to a thread that Bo and Kim started after a trip to Jeff's last summer showing what I believe to be his second, newer set of plants. These appear indistinguishable to me from the Rolf collected plants, with their fronds also being held below horizontal. They certainly don't look like habitat pics with the fronds held above horizontal as you describe. Yet, they seem to be producing grossly different seeds.

What exactly this all adds up to, I am not completely sure. Different species? Age and environment differences? Individual genetic variation within the same species? The puzzle pieces don't seem to fit perfectly one way or the other. It's certainly a fascinating topic.

Please feel free to correct me on any inaccuracies as I definitely don't want to muddy the waters further.

Mike

Go ahead and muddy the already muddied waters.

But regarding the branching - and how, or how rigidly, that trait is handled - I have no idea. But I would like to know. I have looked at some of my palms that are said to branch to the third order, and there is no question that they are branching to that order. In other words, it is not necessary to examine every inflorescence in detail, base to tip, to make a determination. It is fairly straightforward, unmistakeable, and obvious.

As to the endosperm. I can say that Jeff looked at the photo and said it is identical to his seeds, despite that the size and shape vary a bit. And one thing we agreed on is that both his groupings, my palm, and the palm in habitat that Rolf collected from are all the same palm. And we also agreed that the D. coursii seed is a dead ringer for the seed we have on these plants. Jeff also mentioned that when using the sketches of the endosperm in POM, that it is very difficult to determine absolutes in some cases - this being one.

So where that leaves us is, I'm afraid, with a mystery still.

[Matt in SD]

I took some very detailed flower pic's a few years ago from Jeff's plants and then compared them to the descriptions of D coursii and marojejyi. The flowers, from what I could tell clearly did not match coursii, but did match marojejyi. However the inflorescence branching and other habit attributes of the palm make me agree generally with Dean that it is not exactly the same as the palm shown in POM as D marojejyi. But I don't think it's coursii unless there is a mistake in the coursii description in POM.

Whether it's a different species or not is just not something we'll have much say in. There are lots of palms with different forms that are true to seed and easy to distinguish that the botanists lump into one species. So whatever the botanists say, the palms seem clearly distinguishable to me.

Matt

[Dypsisdean]

I took some very detailed flower pic's a few years ago from Jeff's plants and then compared them to the descriptions of D coursii and marojejyi. The flowers, from what I could tell clearly did not match coursii, but did match marojejyi. However the inflorescence branching and other habit attributes of the palm make me agree generally with Dean that it is not exactly the same as the palm shown in POM as D marojejyi. But I don't think it's coursii unless there is a mistake in the coursii description in POM.

Whether it's a different species or not is just not something we'll have much say in. There are lots of palms with different forms that are true to seed and easy to distinguish that the botanists lump into one species. So whatever the botanists say, the palms seem clearly distinguishable to me.

Matt

Thanks Matt - I know we have been beating this dead horse for a while now.

But I'll leave it with what started it for me. And that is - when I first read under a photo in POM describing D. marojejyi as a "squat-litter trapping palm," I began to wonder - because that is not how I would have described the palm in Jeff's and my gardens.

Whereas the photo that Jeff Searle's took of D. marojejyi could be described as such.