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J. Ingram

Red Canary Dates???

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J. Ingram

Hello friends,

I really hate to post this without having a picture of the subject yet, but there is an interesting looking CIDP I have come across.  It has all the typical characteristics of a CIDP, except that the fruit it holds are a nice bright red.  This may be more common than I'm aware of, but the CIDP's I see typically have yellowish orange fruit that either fall off as such, or turn black on the palm before falling.  I gathered several seeds from the ground and they look no different than the typical seed in size, shape etc.  And the few I found that still had their fruit, were still red and ripe.

My question is.... is this a common variation, or is it perhaps some sort of hybrid?  It is quite stunning and stands out in my area where CIDP's are very common.  And I will add a picture of it since I will be sure to have my camera next time I go by it.  

Thanks,

Justin

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Zac in NC

There is a variety, porphyri(o)carpa, which is a red fruited one. I know there are some plants of it over  in France and a forum member or two have spread seeds of it.

Zac

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BS Man about Palms

I did not know that.....

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Kris

Dear guys  :)

that information is preety interesting,

i am dying to see the Cidp along with

those lovely seeds.

when you take photos kindly take a full

scale picture so that i can enagine how

stout this baby is !

And kindly collect the seeds for later

propogation,if it is a rarity amoung Cidp.

thanks for that info.

Love,

Kris.

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Kris

Dear Maximus  :)

that offer for free shipment of red fruit

Cidp, just shows us your heart_even i

feel tempted to make request for those

seeds.But i do not wish to put others in

strain for my personal hobby or collection.

since iam not in your country hence it would

be expensive too. :(

But one thing for shure what i have realised

lately that westerners do grown like the

tailpot palms compared to us asians,but

what is striking feature is that their hearts

are also big.And iam not complaining here ! :D

Here in india all aids center,blue cross,red cross,

alcoholic rehabilitaion centers are all aided by

foregien christian machineries.even i had all my education in Jesuit instutions.

Just an example of me,If i had a peculier tree or palm

in my garden_God forbid i will not give those seeds to

any one let it be indian or froegien friends_so selfish

to the core i happen to be. :(

But as i said on earlier ocassions that i am changing

and even learning a lot from you guys.so i consider

this forum as my lucky break.

And maybe that is the reason i had too little friends !

And Maximus, u are fully fit for your user i.d name. :)

Love u guys,

Kris(India).

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J. Ingram

Hello friends (well... second family!)  :D

Forgive me for the quality of this photo, but since I haven't been able to get by with my camera to get a picture yet, I'll post this photo I got with my phone/camera on the original date.

redcanary1.jpg

I promise I'll post a higher quality pic as soon as I get it.  I hope this one will do for now.

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MattyB

That is very cool I didn't know about the red fruit CIDP.  Thanks for sharing Justin.

Kris said:

Just an example of me,If i had a peculier tree or palm

in my garden_God forbid i will not give those seeds to

any one let it be indian or froegien friends_so selfish

to the core i happen to be.

Kris, as one fellow forum member might say, "Dear Kris, I respectfully request that you do not be too hard on yourself.  It breaks my heart to see your sad emoticon face after that statement.  It is only the humble man who is aware of his shortcomings.  The boasterous man is a fool and tramples on, unaware of his wake.  You are a humble man and God smiles upon you."  That forum member, by the way, is you. :)

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Kris

Matty my friend  :D

Thanks for cheering me up !

It is indeed great to have many guys

like you comprising our forum.

And it is becoming clearer that most of

our members do love plants & animals.

And share the same vision too...

Love,

Kris.

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J. Ingram

OK.... here are some better pictures, although the angle of the sun could have been better to highlight the dates.  

Project2.png

Project5.png

Project4.png

Project3.png

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J. Ingram

and a blurry pic of one of the fruits upclose....

RedCanaryDates.png

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Palms90210

Hybridization is what accounts for different color fruits in canaries:

"The botany of Phoenix is much confused, and no one knows what is planted in this country under the different names.  The species hybridize freely, and it is probable that most of the cultivated forms are hybrids of various mixtures.  While some of the garden names are considered by botanists to be synonyms, they may represent distinct plants to the horticulturist.  Any treatment of Phoenix as represented in North America must now be tentative".

L.H. Bailey in Cyclopedia of Horticulture 1935

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Jeff Searle

What a nice look. I would never believe it, if someone had told me.

Jeff

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J. Ingram

There is a very thin layer of fruit around the seed, just like regular orange CIDP seeds, and it is very tasty!  I'm gathering seed each time I go by there, so I'm sure I'll have some extra.  I'd be happy to mail out a few to anyone interested... no charge or anything like that, just trying to share the hobby!!

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Zac in NC

Palms90210- I was alerted to this variety by some people in France, not in the US. I am sure we could get some of our posters from the Canary Islands to look at the wild ones for us.

Zac

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Randyp

Well said Matt !!! Great to hear your support of a fellow Palmaholic and Human Being.

Justin

Let me know when and if you have a few extra seeds. I would be interested in a few to play with.

Randy

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J. Ingram

So I've come across another one of these red fruit CIDP's.  It is in the same city and much younger than the first one refered to in this thread.  It's very nice... check it out:

redcanaryd001.jpg

redcanaryd013.jpg

redcanaryd009.jpg

redcanaryd011.jpg

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malcthomas

Justin...your trees and fruit look very much like my F1 P.rupicola x canariensis...

regards...Malcolm

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Kris

First of all thanks_J.Ingram for that lovely stills

of my most loved palm of all times_period.

And now a question to you & maximus_

do the red seeds CIDP is anyway stouter than the

regular CIDP.please check and let us know if

it has other peculier features like leaf fronds

big or the spines smaller.

guys those pictures that you have posted is fentastic.

and does this veriety grow more faster that the regular

standard form of CIDP ???

Information Please..this thread is becoming very interesting.

Thanks,

Kris.

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Carlo Morici

Here is the answer from the Canary Islands... and I am doing my PhD thesis on Phoenix canariensis, with some work on the hybrids, so I am often surrounded by them. I am quite sure that all the red fruited P.canariensis are hybrids of P.c. with something else. All the wild palms that I have seen have yellow-orange fruits, except some of the ones in hybrid populations. That is possibly why the red-fruited palms are more common in foreign countries than in the Canaries.

The diversity of Phoenix hybrids in wild populations is astonishing (mostly with P.dactylifera). Generation after generation, all hybrids look different and they are hard to describe with words. Some are stunted dwarfs, other are clumping palms, others show compact crowns... there are hybrids such as the ones you have shown, that look like pure P.canariensis but then they produce red or purple fruits or blueish leaves. Differences can happen in trunk size, colour, spines and so on.

Also Phoenix canariensis var.porphyrocarpa is not a valid name. It just happens to be used for the red fruited phoenix.

Carlo

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Exotic Life

Those pics that are showed here in this topic are great!!

I have read some time ago some message's from people that say the canariensis that give red seeds that was a Phoenix canariensis var.porphyrocarpa.

But the biggest reason why we have talk about this palm on the netherlands forum, because this palm should can have lower tempetures then the normal CIDP ??

But so i can read this ... is this not a other variety ? so the cold hardiness can maybe the same like a normal CIDP ?

Robbin

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M@ximus

(Carlo Morici @ Dec. 21 2006,17:24)

QUOTE
Here is the answer from the Canary Islands... and I am doing my PhD thesis on Phoenix canariensis, with some work on the hybrids, so I am often surrounded by them. I am quite sure that all the red fruited P.canariensis are hybrids of P.c. with something else. All the wild palms that I have seen have yellow-orange fruits, except some of the ones in hybrid populations. That is possibly why the red-fruited palms are more common in foreign countries than in the Canaries.

The diversity of Phoenix hybrids in wild populations is astonishing (mostly with P.dactylifera). Generation after generation, all hybrids look different and they are hard to describe with words. Some are stunted dwarfs, other are clumping palms, others show compact crowns... there are hybrids such as the ones you have shown, that look like pure P.canariensis but then they produce red or purple fruits or blueish leaves. Differences can happen in trunk size, colour, spines and so on.

Also Phoenix canariensis var.porphyrocarpa is not a valid name. It just happens to be used for the red fruited phoenix.

Carlo

I  think  Carlo  is  one  of  the main expert  on  palms , so   , is a pleasure  to  read is  post

In my  experience  with  phoenix  canariensis , I   tried  to  germinate   fresh  seeds  of  both(  red & jellow  fruits)

The  time  of  germination  is   the  same, so the   cold  tollerance

On  the  seedling  stage , I  have  found  just  a  little  difference :  The  Phoenix  with  red  fruits   start  to divide  leaves     very  quicly

I  have 2/ 3 years  old  seedling  of  both  and is  the  only  difference  i  could   see

When  the  palms have  mature  leaves, is  pratically  impossible(for  me )  to recognize  one  form    from  the  other,  until  start  to  fruit

M@x

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J. Ingram

Thanks for the replies everyone...

Malcolm, that's an interesting combo.  My first inclination was that it might be some sort of hybrid.  Do you have any pics?

Kris,  your enthusiastic appreciation of pics posted on this board makes me want to go find other cool palms to take pictures of!  

As far as any differences from regular CIDP, the only one that is apparent to me is the red color of the fruit.  They actually start off as the typical orange/yellow, then ripen to red over a few weeks.  I happened to run into the yard maintenence man while I was taking pics.  He was very informative and helpful.  He said that I should have seen it a month prior because the fruit was brighter red.  And he dug up a seedling from below the palm when I showed interest, potted it and gave it to me!!  Not only that, he helped me gather some seeds from the ground too!  He was very proud of the palm that was under his care and that it was getting such attention.

So if this is a hybrid, what can we expect from the seeds?  Will they exhibit the same characteristics of the parent?  I know nothing about hybrids, so pardon me if this is a stupid question!!!  :D

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Kris

(J. Ingram @ Dec. 21 2006,20:04)

QUOTE
I happened to run into the yard maintenence man while I was taking pics.  He was very informative and helpful.  He said that I should have seen it a month prior because the fruit was brighter red.  And he dug up a seedling from below the palm when I showed interest, potted it and gave it to me!!  Not only that, he helped me gather some seeds from the ground too!  He was very proud of the palm that was under his care and that it was getting such attention.

Hey that maintenance man for me appears to

be god's finnest creation.since i have not seen

any of those guys down here !

here the guys are preety wierd & selfish,may be

even i was just like them,before joining this forum.

you guys have a very broad out look or perspective

on life_I like that attitude folks !

and Dear J.Ingram convey my regards & love to that

man who wished to share things that we appricieate.

these guys shure will go to heaven no doubt about that.

if at all our goverment ask their people as to what variety

of palm will they wish to import with soil_say 10 gallon or 15

gallon plastic containers from canarian island then it would

be CIDP & Draconian Drago_Dragon blood tree.

And if iam the leader of this nation i will order Red CIDP

saplings from you guys to be planted on the National highays.

so that the next generations will feel as though they are in

Las vegas or beverly hills(U.S).

And Mr.Carlo Morici that explanation on red CIDP was indeed

quite Exhaustive(terrefic work_Sir).But i have a question

in my house there are 3 phoenix_one the local indian,two

the calarfornia dates variety &  third dates from oman.

after 3 to 4 years i intend to plant the CIDP(yellow friut type)

very very close to the other 3 varities.

can any one guess what the result be.while the present 3

phoenix seems to be female type.will new hybrids form ?

As for the pictures i will post it after i get my cam & in a new

topic.

thank you very much folks & you guys made my day.

Love,

Kris(India).

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Kris

Just Bumping it ! for Phoenix lovers,since i visit old threads phoenix related quite often...

love,

Kris  :)

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Gary

I have one of these red fruit phoenix on my front lawn and would agree with Malcolm that it probably has rupicola in it.I have a second one that is not flowering yet but it is a clumper-both palms were grown from seed off a red fruit clumping female that Malcolm may have seen in Auckland

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Exotic Life

I've got now some seedlings of this red fruited Phoenix species, i get this from maximus from this board! They still growing, but slow now because it's not very warm right now every day around the 10C/50F. But next summer, they get a bigger pot from me then the can grow like a crazy palm :D

Robbin

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PalmGuyWC

Before Hurricane Andrew swept through S. Fla., there were a couple of Phoenix rupicola growing just inside the old entrance to Fairchild Gardens. I remember seeing them laden with bright red fruit.  I remember remarking about them to a friend, as I had never seen such bright red fruit on a Phoenix.

At the time I didn't know if it was just a color phase the fruit was going through or if they were ripe fruit. It is typical for P. rupicola to have red fruit? The two palms are no longer there, so they must have been blown down by the hurricane.

There are a few P. rupicola growing in N. Calif. but they are not nearly as cold hardy as CIDP. As someone has suggested, maybe the red fruited CIDP might be a CIDP X rupicola hybrid.....or at least have some P. rupicola genes in them.

Those close ups of the red fruit in this thread are beautiful.

Dick

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PalmGuyWC

......also, in support of what Carlo has stated. I once germinated about 20 hybrid Phoenix seeds that had come from a palm growing at Parrot Jungle in Miami.  The mother tree appeared to be a cross between CIDP and P. robelenii. When the seeds germinated and they grew, no two of the plants looked alike. Most were single trunked, but one was clustering, and it's growing in my garden now. Some were more delicate looking like the mother plant, while others were course looking, some were attractive, and some were not and had long spines at the base of the petiole.

I think when planting hybrid Phoenix seeds, you never really know what they will turn out to be until they develope some adult characteristics and, if the seeds are gathered from a botanical garden where there are several different Phoenix species (or hybrids) you never know who the father was.

Dick

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Kris

Here is my Red Fruticas CIDP growing in our roof top terrace garden..its hardy one year old.And they were saplings sent to me by my italian friend Max(Maximus)..

here is a recent still of it !  :)

Love,

Kris.

post-108-1196693986_thumb.jpg

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Kris

Max had sent me so many saplings with the roots in perilite & peat moss.that 98% survival rate i got from it and they were gifts since Iam a die-hard fan of the phoenix.Sp..

some of them are in one liter plastic mineral water bottles under our dish antenna...which will soon leave us for goverment nurseries...

Love,

Kris.

post-108-1196694301_thumb.jpg

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Exotic Life

Kris,

Wow that's fun to see! You have got a lot more heat as i am... the mine are the same age, and still have got the young leafes. You're is big, by my seedlings.

Robbin

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JD in the OC

Its probably hybridized with P. sylvestris. Here is a P. sylvestris infor in CA

NewPics144.jpg

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Kris

Dear Vic :)

Here is that thread...see the visuals !

Love,

Kris :)

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Neofolis

I remember Carlo showing me the red fruit hybrids in Tenerife. It would be interesting to see how their cold hardiness compares with the pure form.

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Exotic Life

I've heard that the red fruiting canariensis is more hardy then the normal one... but it's never proof too me. I know there are some people in Holland with some red fruited seedlings, also I so maybe it can be tested in the future.

Robbin

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Vic

Thanks Kris for pointing me towards this thread

I have some seedlings of the "red seed CIDP" and they are about 3 years old now. At this stage they look more like dactylifera than CIDP, but are extremily healthy looking robust seedlings.

It would be good if they are slightly hardier than CID's

The palm in question is on the left, i'm only sorry i did not zoom in closer now.

Cheers

Vic

post-1177-1222356381_thumb.jpg

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Vic

I just came across this pic, it was taken in Valencia (spain) and i forgot about it, there is no sign or rupicola in valencia so i'm fairly sure that if it is a hybrid it will be crossed with something else in this instance.

post-1177-1222371230_thumb.jpg

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