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Caryota_gigas

Frost experiments from down under

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Caryota_gigas

I am starting this thread so as not to high-jack the Dypsis oropedionis thread.

Several days ago, unaware of the D. oropedionis thread currently running, I did some experiments on small D. oropedionis to see how well they could handle the frost. I placed a small seedling on a glass table on my deck in one of the coldest Winter spots in our garden. I also place another on the table under 2 plastic pots. After placing them on the table I realised I needed some sort of control or ways of comparing wether the results of D. oropedionis in frost conditions were good or bad compared to other species I had, so I grabbed a few more seedlings for the frosty table experiment.

The below text is taken from the Dypsis oropedionis thread and explains the first plants tested;

Its still early days to see if the plants I experimented with will be damaged. Frost is a tricky thing that can take a while to manifest its true evilness.

Anyway, three days ago I put a seedling of the following on a glass table on our deck which gets very cold. It got down to -1.6°C (29°F) and the leaflets on all plants were stiff with ice, with the exception of the D. oropedionis under the plant pots.

Cycas revoluta

Trachycarpus fortunei

Sabal mauritiiformis

Beccariophoenix alfredii

Brahea aculeata

Rhopalostylis sapida "Chatham"

Dypsis oropedionis and another D. oropedionis under 2 plastic pots.

I wrapped the bases with a towel to try and keep the roots from getting too cold.

These were all plants I had plenty of seedlings of (so dont panic), and the Trachy was used as a sort of control plant.

Looking at the plants today I can see no damage yet on any except for the D. oropedionis which was exposed to frost. Its leaves changed to a translucent green immediately after the frost, but it is actually starting to look better again. I would have expected the leaflets to have turned brown as many other Dypsis have done on my property in the last few weeks of frost. The D. oropedionis also came straight from a Greenhouse on the day of the experiment. I have other D. oropedionis seedlings outside under some protection which look fine, and my in ground one looks fine, though has been covered with an umbrella through all frosts.

B. alfredii I have frost tested before with very good results. Tonight I may do another such test on a few different species, including several B. alfredii again, and the Southern form, any other requests...

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Caryota_gigas

More background info:

The coldest temp I have recorded at our place this Winter, so far, is -3.4°C (26°F), which is about as cold as it gets (I hope).

We had 3 nights in a row below freezing, around -3°C (26.6°F) and they were the worst frosts we have had in 7 years at this property, and another 4 frosts since, all around the -1.5°C (29°F) mark.

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Caryota_gigas

Last night I put the following in the line of the frost;

Aiphanes horrida

Allagoptera arenaria

Areca triandra

Beccariophoenix alfredii

Beccariophoenix madagascariensis "Southern form"

Dypsis ambositrae

Dypsis onilahensis

Jubaeopsis caffra

Phoenix canariensis

Phoenix loureiroi

Plectocomia himalayana

Serenoa repens

The temp where these plants were only got down to -1.2°C (30°F). But they did all have frost on the leaves just a few hours ago.

So initial thoughts after the frost clearing? I will put them into groups;

NOT LOOKING GOOD

Allagoptera arenaria

Dypsis ambositrae

Dypsis onilahensis

SHOWING SOME DAMAGE

Aiphanes horrida

Areca triandra

Beccariophoenix madagascariensis "Southern form"

Phoenix loureiroi

LOOKING FINE

Beccariophoenix alfredii

Jubaeopsis caffra

Phoenix canariensis

Plectocomia himalayana

Serenoa repens

I will update this in coming days as the true damage takes hold.

Jonathan, I only have one P. hillebrandii and I dont want to kill it. As for Euterpe, I have none of these at the moment, but wouldn't fancy there chances. I will post a pic soon of my Pritchardia martii and its frost damage, damage it has never received from frost in the past... and it was undercover! I will also post pics of all my burnt D. baronii, as these dont normally get damaged like this either. It has been colder than usual here this year.

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Jonathan

Thanks Michael - it should be very interesting to see how they pull up.

Could you take some photos? I'm particularly keen to see what size seedlings you're working with.

Another good experiment might be to expose different sized plants of one species to frost to try to establish an optimum size for planting out...but obviously we can't expect you to sacrifice all your palms in the name of science!

Would the parent plants of those white flowering R. sapida's that you sent me have experienced the sort of temperatures that you're talking about in this thread, or do they grow in more protected areas? I can't get my head around the fact that Auckland could get so cold, given its latitude and coastal position....

Do you have any thoughts or experience with Parajubaea cocoides and frost? P. tvt, t. microcarpa and sunkha are said to be pretty resistant, but all the information I see about cocoides seems to be conflicting. I'm about to get some and want to make sure I plant them in the right spot.

Cheers,

Jonathan

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Caryota_gigas
Thanks Michael - it should be very interesting to see how they pull up.

Could you take some photos? I'm particularly keen to see what size seedlings you're working with.

I was going to take photos, but it will take a lot of time doing each plant and showing damage, etc. so I have decided not to photograph them. Most seedlings are between 100 and 250mm in height.

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Caryota_gigas
Another good experiment might be to expose different sized plants of one species to frost to try to establish an optimum size for planting out...but obviously we can't expect you to sacrifice all your palms in the name of science!

Cheers,

Jonathan

If I had plants of lots of different sizes of each species I would certainly do that... but I don't...

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Caryota_gigas
Would the parent plants of those white flowering R. sapida's that you sent me have experienced the sort of temperatures that you're talking about in this thread, or do they grow in more protected areas? I can't get my head around the fact that Auckland could get so cold, given its latitude and coastal position....

Cheers,

Jonathan

The white Nikau you have comes from my Mothers place. She is at a higher elevation than me (I will try and find out both elevations shortly) and gets no frost, though on average it is far cooler than at my place. My place gets on average 3 degrees cooler than the lows in Winter... but 3 degrees C warmer than the highs in Summer.

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Tyrone

Michael, Are your D ambositrae the real form or D sp fine leaf? I think D sp fineleaf is relatively tropical compared to the real D ambositrae.

Best regards

Tyrone

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Caryota_gigas
Do you have any thoughts or experience with Parajubaea cocoides and frost? P. tvt, t. microcarpa and sunkha are said to be pretty resistant, but all the information I see about cocoides seems to be conflicting. I'm about to get some and want to make sure I plant them in the right spot.

Cheers,

Jonathan

I dont grow Parajubaea for 2 reasons.

The first being the size they get to... I just dont have the space anymore.

The second being... dont tell anyone on the message board... I dont like them.

And a third would be that at the moment in NZ they seem to be dying a lot.

Having said that, there is thousands (thats no exaggeration) of them up the road from me and opposite Richard. They get mild frost from time to time and I think they handle it fine.

I hope this helps answer your questions.

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Caryota_gigas
Michael, Are your D ambositrae the real form or D sp fine leaf? I think D sp fineleaf is relatively tropical compared to the real D ambositrae.

Best regards

Tyrone

I would like to answer that for certain, but with so many conflicting opinions of what many people say is Ambositrae and what isnt... who knows. What many people believe to be Ambositrae is not as far as Im concerned. It would be nice if there was a definitive article in Palms with photos and descriptions of the different ambos over the years to finalise this topic.

I will post some pics when I find the camera.

Cheers,

Mike.

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Jonathan
Do you have any thoughts or experience with Parajubaea cocoides and frost? P. tvt, t. microcarpa and sunkha are said to be pretty resistant, but all the information I see about cocoides seems to be conflicting. I'm about to get some and want to make sure I plant them in the right spot.

Cheers,

Jonathan

I dont grow Parajubaea for 2 reasons.

The first being the size they get to... I just dont have the space anymore.

The second being... dont tell anyone on the message board... I dont like them.

And a third would be that at the moment in NZ they seem to be dying a lot.

Having said that, there is thousands (thats no exaggeration) of them up the road from me and opposite Richard. They get mild frost from time to time and I think they handle it fine.

I hope this helps answer your questions.

I promise I won't tell anyone....but I will beg to differ!

Thanks for answering all my questions, oh mad scientist.

Cheers,

Jonathan

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Caryota_gigas

Well its warmed up here now, thankfully, with overnight temps for the next week only hitting around the 10°C mark. So no more frost experiments for a while I hope.

I will update plants frosted thus far soon.

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Caryota_gigas

Well all the frosted seedlings look pretty good with the exception of D. oropedionis and A. triandra.

Im quite surprised how well many of them took the frost... but they were only mild ones compared to ones we had earlier in Winter.

I will go take some Frost damage pics of some of my in-ground palms... brace yourself... these wont be pretty...

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Caryota_gigas

Now some frost damage shots from my garden...

small D. baronii, saw below -3°C, 3 days in a row.post-636-1246076818_thumb.jpg

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Caryota_gigas

Plectocomia elongata, under 50% shade...

post-636-1246077498_thumb.jpg

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Caryota_gigas

small Pritchardia martii, under frost protection, but still...

post-636-1246077675_thumb.jpg

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Caryota_gigas

Various Caryota

post-636-1246078262_thumb.jpg

post-636-1246078343_thumb.jpg

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peachy

Thanks Michael, you have no idea how helpful this topic has been for me as every few years we get a nice minus 4 or 5C frost that blackens every plant in the place almost. I recently planted areca triandra and becarriophoenix alfredii so its good to know they stand a fighting chance. Meanwhile I shudder to think that you are risking a phoenix loureiroi and a brahea aculeata because I have been trying for years to find the former and can only find the latter as tiny microscopic things that cost more than a good brand sports car. I have pritchardia gaudichaudii, which is also known as something or other else, and in a semi protected spot, alongside a phoenix reclinata, it survived the bad frost (minus 5) a couple of years ago, as did a protected euterpe edulis and a protected areca catechu if this is of any help. A veitchia johannis in the open got badly fried but eventually came back again after a few months.

Peachy

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peachy
Thanks Michael - it should be very interesting to see how they pull up.

Could you take some photos? I'm particularly keen to see what size seedlings you're working with.

Another good experiment might be to expose different sized plants of one species to frost to try to establish an optimum size for planting out...but obviously we can't expect you to sacrifice all your palms in the name of science!

Would the parent plants of those white flowering R. sapida's that you sent me have experienced the sort of temperatures that you're talking about in this thread, or do they grow in more protected areas? I can't get my head around the fact that Auckland could get so cold, given its latitude and coastal position....

Do you have any thoughts or experience with Parajubaea cocoides and frost? P. tvt, t. microcarpa and sunkha are said to be pretty resistant, but all the information I see about cocoides seems to be conflicting. I'm about to get some and want to make sure I plant them in the right spot.

Cheers,

Jonathan

You know where to get parajubaeas ??? Spill !!!! I saw a cocoides in Sydney 20 years ago and have been trying to find one ever since with absolutely no success. Those people who do have them treat their sources as a national secret it seems. Any info you can give me about sourcing a cocoides or a torellyii (I think thats how its spelt) would be very gratefully received..

Peachy

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BS Man about Palms

Painful pics Jonathan...

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DoomsDave

OUCH!

You certainly have our sympathies!

You took a hard hit!

Those baronii look sad, in particular. As bad as it got here, not nearly that bad. They're tough, though, and I think they'll recover, though never as fast as you'd like.

We're all sitting up here in our undies romping through the meadows in the sunshine . . . . (for now)

Do, please put your data in the Frost section of the board.

Hmm. SOUnds like your D. oreo is toast, but hope I'm wrong . . .

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Bennz
The white Nikau you have comes from my Mothers place. She is at a higher elevation than me (I will try and find out both elevations shortly) and gets no frost, though on average it is far cooler than at my place. My place gets on average 3 degrees cooler than the lows in Winter... but 3 degrees C warmer than the highs in Summer.

HI Michael,

You must be in some kind of frost-hollow situation, to get that more extreme temp swings? At least your warmer summers means your plants will outgrow their damage faster than other people would.

It has been a shocking winter here too, not so much extreme cold (1C is still the coldest air temp for the year), but lack of warmth. We've had snow falling (not settling), and long days with highs only around 10C. I even recordefd a dewpoint at -2C, which means the cold came straight from Antarctica with litle chance to warm up on the way. If this kind of global warming trend continues I will need to move to only growing Trachycarpus as reliable palm!

My Roystonea and Plumerias in ground are all still alive. Will be interesting to see how they look by end of winter. The bananas have never looked this unhappy this early in the year.

Hardy palms sound better and better all the time. I had light frost over a tray of Ceroxylon quindiuense seedligns, no damage at all. At the same time I lost a Pritchardia seedling whihc was under plastic, and sitting on heat-tray :rolleyes:

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richnorm

No cosmetic damage here just a couple of clicks up the road from Michael. Even tender plants like Musa zebrina have been untouched so far. However the real damage tends to show in spring for me when plants are at their weakest and the rot sets in. Winter has really only just started and plants are still starched-up.

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Tyrone

Scary pictures. I hope they recover.

Best regards

Tyrone

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Alberto

Here some pics of damage of freeze in June. Native Philodendron and B.alfredii seedling are fine after a freeze of -1´C (under veranda of the house,north side temp. was 0.5´C) Ginger was burned . All the three plants has canopy above .

post-465-1246154462_thumb.jpg

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Alberto

B.alfredii seedling

post-465-1246154938_thumb.jpg

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Alberto

Phoenix roebellenii

post-465-1246155129_thumb.jpg

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Alberto

I was surprised about the damage on the Parajubaea torallyi var.tor. specially on the strap leaves and less on mature leaves.

This is the lowest pat of my place,and was covered with frost.Seddlings weren´t covered.... :angry::huh:

post-465-1246155506_thumb.jpg

Edited by Alberto

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Alberto

Other plant:

post-465-1246155640_thumb.jpg

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Alberto

(BTW Michael,what Caryota species you have growing there? They look damaged the same as my C.himalayana)

Another P.torallyi:

post-465-1246155783_thumb.jpg

Edited by Alberto

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John Case

Michael,

Tell us about the Beccariophoenix madagascariensis 'southern form'. I am not familiar with this terminology.

Thanks,

John

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Caryota_gigas

A few to answer here, give me a minute...

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Caryota_gigas
Thanks Michael, you have no idea how helpful this topic has been for me as every few years we get a nice minus 4 or 5C frost that blackens every plant in the place almost. I recently planted areca triandra and becarriophoenix alfredii so its good to know they stand a fighting chance. Meanwhile I shudder to think that you are risking a phoenix loureiroi and a brahea aculeata because I have been trying for years to find the former and can only find the latter as tiny microscopic things that cost more than a good brand sports car. I have pritchardia gaudichaudii, which is also known as something or other else, and in a semi protected spot, alongside a phoenix reclinata, it survived the bad frost (minus 5) a couple of years ago, as did a protected euterpe edulis and a protected areca catechu if this is of any help. A veitchia johannis in the open got badly fried but eventually came back again after a few months.

Peachy

Hi Peachy

I doubt very much if an Areca triandra would survive out in the open here. The seedling punished by the frost does not look pretty, but still looks recoverable. I also have 2 in the ground under lots of natural protection which look fine.

Beccariophoenix alfredii seems pretty damn tough, taking frost and full sun as seedlings, a real winner for the future I reckon. This is the second year these same seedlings have been exposed to frost, and still no damage.

Ive got plenty of B. aculeata, if it wasnt so difficult I would send you one, and a P. loureiroi for that matter.

Euterpe edulis do ok here, but as for A. catechu... that is but a dream...

Michael.

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Caryota_gigas
Thanks Michael - it should be very interesting to see how they pull up.

Could you take some photos? I'm particularly keen to see what size seedlings you're working with.

Another good experiment might be to expose different sized plants of one species to frost to try to establish an optimum size for planting out...but obviously we can't expect you to sacrifice all your palms in the name of science!

Would the parent plants of those white flowering R. sapida's that you sent me have experienced the sort of temperatures that you're talking about in this thread, or do they grow in more protected areas? I can't get my head around the fact that Auckland could get so cold, given its latitude and coastal position....

Do you have any thoughts or experience with Parajubaea cocoides and frost? P. tvt, t. microcarpa and sunkha are said to be pretty resistant, but all the information I see about cocoides seems to be conflicting. I'm about to get some and want to make sure I plant them in the right spot.

Cheers,

Jonathan

You know where to get parajubaeas ??? Spill !!!! I saw a cocoides in Sydney 20 years ago and have been trying to find one ever since with absolutely no success. Those people who do have them treat their sources as a national secret it seems. Any info you can give me about sourcing a cocoides or a torellyii (I think thats how its spelt) would be very gratefully received..

Peachy

You need to live here... there are hundreds of them up the road.

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Caryota_gigas
OUCH!

Hmm. SOUnds like your D. oreo is toast, but hope I'm wrong . . .

It was only a small one, I have plenty more.

My bigger in-ground one is doing fine, I am well pleased with its survival thus far...

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Caryota_gigas
HI Michael,

You must be in some kind of frost-hollow situation, to get that more extreme temp swings? At least your warmer summers means your plants will outgrow their damage faster than other people would.

It has been a shocking winter here too, not so much extreme cold (1C is still the coldest air temp for the year), but lack of warmth. We've had snow falling (not settling), and long days with highs only around 10C. I even recordefd a dewpoint at -2C, which means the cold came straight from Antarctica with litle chance to warm up on the way. If this kind of global warming trend continues I will need to move to only growing Trachycarpus as reliable palm!

My Roystonea and Plumerias in ground are all still alive. Will be interesting to see how they look by end of winter. The bananas have never looked this unhappy this early in the year.

Hardy palms sound better and better all the time. I had light frost over a tray of Ceroxylon quindiuense seedligns, no damage at all. At the same time I lost a Pritchardia seedling whihc was under plastic, and sitting on heat-tray :rolleyes:

Hi Ben,

Yeah its pretty low at our place, at the bottom of a getle slope with a creek nearby. Gets damn hot in Summer.

I am thinking seriously about hardy palms for the first time. I will be ripping out my Archontophoenix alexandrae and A. purpurea, both over 8 feet tall, as they just get completely buggered by the frost each year. I will most likely be replacing them with 2 Beccariophoenix.

My in-ground C. quindiuense has a small amount of damage on the flatest surfaces.

All my Pritchardia seddlings, in my unheated GH, are fine.

Michael.

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Caryota_gigas
(BTW Michael,what Caryota species you have growing there? They look damaged the same as my C.himalayana)

In that pic, C. obtusa, C. urens, C. ochlandra, C. sp. 'mystery'. All have been hit worse than ever before, especially the C. obtusa which normally copes very well. I also have other C. ochlandra, C. sp 'mystery', C. mitis, C. monostachya and C. sp. 'solitaire' which have come through unscathed thus far, thoug all are under natural protection. My newly aquired C. sp. 'himalayana', (or C. maxima 'himalayana', or C. himalayana or whatever its currently known as) on the other hand...

post-636-1246179305_thumb.jpg

One of my sadest looking palms at the moment, even the trunk is changing colour, doesn't look good.

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Caryota_gigas

...

post-636-1246179529_thumb.jpg

... speechless...

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Caryota_gigas
Michael,

Tell us about the Beccariophoenix madagascariensis 'southern form'. I am not familiar with this terminology.

Thanks,

John

I will do my best...

On second thought, here is an excerpt from a post Tyrone left in another topic, (one you started) I hope you dont mind Tyrone. I purchased these as seed labelled as B. mad. southern form.

From Tyrone;

"According to John Dransfield, what we previously were calling B madagascariensis, or the windows form, or the B sp eastern form is an undescribed species awaiting a valid name. It is the hardest to grow in cooler climates, and would be semi-marginal in So Cal as it can be here. They tend to have iron deficiency problems. This species appears to come from mid altitude rainforest on the east coast of Madagascar. It's seed is oblong. It's a moderately fast grower in the right environment. It tends to have short inflorescences and has fruited for many years in cultivation.

The second species is the real B madagascariensis, which has been called B sp southern form, or B sp no windows. It quickly goes from monofid leaflets to bifid leaflets to pinnate, however it's growth is considerably slower than B sp windows. It comes from semi-open forest on sand in the south of Madagascar at low altitude. This species doesn't suffer from nutrient problems. It's seeds look identical to B sp windows ie oblong. It's inflorescences are long and the famous description of them is in POM. It is also very cool tolerant.

The third species is B alfredii which was described from a mountain area in the central plateau in an almost uninhabitated area. They all grow within a stones throw of the rivers and streams that drain out of the plateua. The landscape there is open grasslands where the biggest plants are the B alfredii's. The inflorescences are short, the seed isn't oblong but almost round. They are also fast growers with a pace more like B sp windows but without the high nutrient demands of B sp windows."

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